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Old 2015-01-22, 04:13   Link #1
dullman
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Why Japanese are obsessed with slave theme in Web Novels

Hello i read some WN novels and must say all those fantasy novels (with reincarnation) have one thing common the MC buy/own slaves as normal thing, although most of them are reincarnated from modern world, the question i often ask myself why they aren't fight against that but go along and many times not only own slaves but also sexually use them. For me as european is something wrong with slavery (Probably the last slaves in europe were about 10 century so it something that we learn from milk of mother like we said in my country). So must ask if in modern Japan is there other view for slavery since all MC in WN don't anything to improve status of slaves or abolish slavery. They mainly use and own slaves on their own as normal thing in the world. I think also is possible that slaves are dreams of "otakus" in Japan, which is why is hard to find any normal thinking MC in web novels since most of them are writted by "otaku" for "otakus".

ps. As someone who believe that freedom is something basic for human i usually abandon any web novels which has slaves as one of theme of novel.
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Old 2015-01-22, 04:56   Link #2
Irenicus
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I don't recall slavery as a theme being employed very much in manga, anime, and light novels generally. So I don't think you can draw any conclusions regarding mainstream Japanese or even otaku attitudes on slavery from this very niche subset of web novels.

Even in situations where a character loses their freedom, it's far more often the case of being bound by some complex obligations (feudal relationships, indentured labor, household servants, etc.), being raised and/or captured for evil scientific experiments, or other such variations. Slavery rarely registers unless the setting is a complete Mad Max of a world like Fist of the North Star or something, and even then the good guys typically fight against it because freedom.

From my experience, if anything, Japan cherishes its great egalitarian middle class myth, even to the point of rendering their underclasses -- discriminated populations such as the Burakumin or the Zainichi Koreans and Chinese -- invisible to the public consciousness.

Maybe Narou authors just think slavery is EDGY and BADASS because Mushoku Tensei's author did it. There's apparently a lot of rape and suffering and consummated harem and shit going on in these WN novels, presumably to emphasize how SERIOUS and DIFFERENT a particular setting is. I think it's rather tasteless. Stop enslaving my elves.
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Old 2015-01-22, 07:01   Link #3
GreyZone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dullman View Post
Hello i read some WN novels and must say all those fantasy novels (with reincarnation) have one thing common the MC buy/own slaves as normal thing, although most of them are reincarnated from modern world, the question i often ask myself why they aren't fight against that but go along and many times not only own slaves but also sexually use them. For me as european is something wrong with slavery (Probably the last slaves in europe were about 10 century so it something that we learn from milk of mother like we said in my country). So must ask if in modern Japan is there other view for slavery since all MC in WN don't anything to improve status of slaves or abolish slavery. They mainly use and own slaves on their own as normal thing in the world. I think also is possible that slaves are dreams of "otakus" in Japan, which is why is hard to find any normal thinking MC in web novels since most of them are writted by "otaku" for "otakus".

ps. As someone who believe that freedom is something basic for human i usually abandon any web novels which has slaves as one of theme of novel.
AFAIK usually the "slaves" are never really treated as such if the MC buys them. If anything they are actually better treated by the MC than other people. It seems to be some kind of way to show that the MC is not someone who discriminates against people due to their status/origin/etc.

Aside from that, I really cannot see how that is an "over-used" theme at all. Only 2 WNs, if you really stretch the definition then 3 WNs, come to mind, maybe I am just not reading enough of them.


But really, it's set at a medival/ancient-like setting mixed with magic, most of the time. People talk great things about ancient Greece and ancient Rome and their accomplishment in culture, history, science and many other topics. However those empires all had slavery as part of their system, because they were just economically efficient as hell. Damn, even the USA had slaves just a few hundred years ago. The question about slavery isn't even a completely idealistic question, but also a technological one. With our modern technology and mashinery, the use a slave could provide has sunk considerably. The fantasy settings do not have such circumstances though. And if there is neither slavery or technology, then you instead often get something even worse than slavery, usually religious things, like witch hunts or crusades.
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Last edited by GreyZone; 2015-01-22 at 07:11.
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Old 2015-01-22, 07:10   Link #4
dullman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
I don't recall slavery as a theme being employed very much in manga, anime, and light novels generally. So I don't think you can draw any conclusions regarding mainstream Japanese or even otaku attitudes on slavery from this very niche subset of web novels.
Yes i know i that published novels or manga rarely have slavery in them, but the question is WN which is better to get insight of japanese otaku since creation of novels isn't restricted by editors and other parts of publishing industry, so when i read WN(must say my genre for WN is harem but other than Mushoku tensei i didn't read any WN in complete) and almost ewerywhere there are slavery i think it's something wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
Even in situations where a character loses their freedom, it's far more often the case of being bound by some complex obligations (feudal relationships, indentured labor, household servants, etc.), being raised and/or captured for evil scientific experiments, or other such variations. Slavery rarely registers unless the setting is a complete Mad Max of a world like Fist of the North Star or something, and even then the good guys typically fight against it because freedom.
Hmm i give one examples it's the popular one novel about hero with shield who have problems with attack, then what his choice of action? Obviously buy a slave to help with this, for me if he want help he should just search for party but the author thinks otherwise.
And there is many WN where slaves are common, you mentioned Ariferuta, I add gun ota (although it's not typical since he become one of slaves), Re:Monster, Arifueta and for the other titles i can't remember any in this moment but i know there will be some.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
From my experience, if anything, Japan cherishes its great egalitarian middle class myth, even to the point of rendering their underclasses -- discriminated populations such as the Burakumin or the Zainichi Koreans and Chinese -- invisible to the public consciousness.
What I can say that i dislike historical manga/anime etc. reason is one everytime I feel like there is a caste system in japan if you are born as peasant you will be a peasant all the time and every time you try to change it you will fail, although i feel like there is only one road to improve your standing by being strong fighter.
In medieval europe there many roads to improve, one was Church, other by buying title, or another one by fighting ability(here i mean also strategy or tactical talent)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
Maybe Narou authors just think slavery is EDGY and BADASS because Mushoku Tensei's author did it. There's apparently a lot of rape and suffering and consummated harem and shit going on in these WN novels, presumably to emphasize how SERIOUS and DIFFERENT a particular setting is. I think it's rather tasteless. Stop enslaving my elves.
I think you are partly right about slavery is badass, but for me it's something which make novel almost impossible (If i wouldn't know that in Mushoku Tensei MC has multiple children i would abandon in the moment when he buy a slave).

ps. Maybe the problem is my choice of web novels to read, because i'm mainly interested in those harems where MC has child or at least consumated relationship (since there is a possibility that he would have childrens in future).
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Old 2015-01-22, 07:31   Link #5
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by dullman View Post
Hmm i give one examples it's the popular one novel about hero with shield who have problems with attack, then what his choice of action? Obviously buy a slave to help with this, for me if he want help he should just search for party but the author thinks otherwise.
"Search for a party"? You really don't seem to understand what the point of that was. Naofumi could not "just go search for a party", because he was just betrayed and falsely accused by someone and everyone was against him even more than at the start, which led to him getting a psychological trauma, like becoming mentally impotent and losing his sense of taste, but he would still have to fight once the time comes and can't even run away due to that. He had extreme trust issues as well. The way you put it makes it seem like you didn't even read it, but already judged it from the summary...
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Old 2015-01-22, 08:09   Link #6
Fizix
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Not seen this trend - I would recommend changing what kind of stuff you're looking at. I also don't believe stuff online is a good way to get a feel for society, not unless you can identify it as mainstream. You could be looking at something really niche or extreme types.

Also, if you try to learn about a culture in this way, I'm afraid you're going to get it all wrong. You can only learn about a culture that's distant and reasonably restrictive due to language barriers, by studying it and preferably experiencing it first hand, trying to get it from fiction, web forums and the likes will cause you to have an incorrect view of that culture.

I mean, imagine Japanese people trying to figure Westerners out by looking at popular music and fan bases on Twitter. They will have very strange and incorrect views about us. They would probably see those batshit crazy directioners and so on.


Also, what you've described sounds kinda creepy (themes of buying sex slaves or buying slaves with a sexual intent behing mixed in, basically). I'm willing to bet that you've been reading some really niche fetish material or are not understanding the material you are reading. Another point to make is, while a thing can exist within a culture, without understanding the culture fully you don't know whether that thing is controversial or frowned upon. Using people like crazy Directioners as an example here, they are very well known and are far from rare basement dwellers. But those extreme fans are not really representative of society and the stuff some of them do (that may seem widespread) is generally looked down on.
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Old 2015-01-22, 08:49   Link #7
dullman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
"Search for a party"? You really don't seem to understand what the point of that was. Naofumi could not "just go search for a party", because he was just betrayed and falsely accused by someone and everyone was against him even more than at the start, which led to him getting a psychological trauma, like becoming mentally impotent and losing his sense of taste, but he would still have to fight once the time comes and can't even run away due to that. He had extreme trust issues as well. The way you put it makes it seem like you didn't even read it, but already judged it from the summary...
I understnad pretty obvious that was made and stinks since no human will crumble after one event, to destroy one mind i mean they didn't torture him from what i remember so for me is something that not believeable (I know what i speak from my own experience).
And even he distrust another ones what he do buy a slave!!! I mean there is reason why no army was made purely from slaves, so giving the slave weapon was stupidiest idea i've ever heard from person who own slaves.

ps. you are right i read only to moment when he decided to buy slave, after that i really don't see a point to read this crappy web novel (my own opinion so some of you might feel different)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizix View Post
Not seen this trend - I would recommend changing what kind of stuff you're looking at. I also don't believe stuff online is a good way to get a feel for society, not unless you can identify it as mainstream. You could be looking at something really niche or extreme types.

Also, if you try to learn about a culture in this way, I'm afraid you're going to get it all wrong. You can only learn about a culture that's distant and reasonably restrictive due to language barriers, by studying it and preferably experiencing it first hand, trying to get it from fiction, web forums and the likes will cause you to have an incorrect view of that culture.

I mean, imagine Japanese people trying to figure Westerners out by looking at popular music and fan bases on Twitter. They will have very strange and incorrect views about us. They would probably see those batshit crazy directioners and so on.


Also, what you've described sounds kinda creepy (themes of buying sex slaves or buying slaves with a sexual intent behing mixed in, basically). I'm willing to bet that you've been reading some really niche fetish material or are not understanding the material you are reading. Another point to make is, while a thing can exist within a culture, without understanding the culture fully you don't know whether that thing is controversial or frowned upon. Using people like crazy Directioners as an example here, they are very well known and are far from rare basement dwellers. But those extreme fans are not really representative of society and the stuff some of them do (that may seem widespread) is generally looked down on.
It's seems you misunderstood something i don't say there is many WN in which they buy slave for sexual purpose (although comes to mind two title re:Monster and Slave harlem in labyrinth or something like that - but can't say about this for sure since i didn't read enough to MC buy first slave, although he fantasies about that.


ps. what lacks in translated novels/web novels/manga is some good badass (by good i mean interesting). In my country there is a popular book with badass MC who is ~100 y.o. and it lacks any sex, romance or any other young behaviour, but is still funny as hell, probably the funniest book i ever read including terry pratchet discworld, something similar i would love to see web/light novels.
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Old 2015-01-22, 09:04   Link #8
Fizix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dullman View Post
I understnad pretty obvious that was made and stinks since no human will crumble after one event, to destroy one mind i mean they didn't torture him from what i remember so for me is something that not believeable (I know what i speak from my own experience).
And even he distrust another ones what he do buy a slave!!! I mean there is reason why no army was made purely from slaves, so giving the slave weapon was stupidiest idea i've ever heard from person who own slaves.

ps. you are right i read only to moment when he decided to buy slave, after that i really don't see a point to read this crappy web novel (my own opinion so some of you might feel different)


It's seems you misunderstood something i don't say there is many WN in which they buy slave for sexual purpose (although comes to mind two title re:Monster and Slave harlem in labyrinth or something like that - but can't say about this for sure since i didn't read enough to MC buy first slave, although he fantasies about that.


ps. what lacks in translated novels/web novels/manga is some good badass (by good i mean interesting). In my country there is a popular book with badass MC who is ~100 y.o. and it lacks any sex, romance or any other young behaviour, but is still funny as hell, probably the funniest book i ever read including terry pratchet discworld, something similar i would love to see web/light novels.


Oh? You said just that though:

Quote:
Hello i read some WN novels and must say all those fantasy novels (with reincarnation) have one thing common the MC buy/own slaves as normal thing, although most of them are reincarnated from modern world, the question i often ask myself why they aren't fight against that but go along and many times not only own slaves but also sexually use them.

Anyway even if we assume I did understand you and most of these web novels don't buy/use slaves with some kind of sexual intent, my post still stands.

Just to be clearer:

Quote:
So must ask if in modern Japan is there other view for slavery since all MC in WN don't anything to improve status of slaves or abolish slavery. They mainly use and own slaves on their own as normal thing in the world.
Not likely, my reasons were in my original reply.


Quote:
I think also is possible that slaves are dreams of "otakus" in Japan, which is why is hard to find any normal thinking MC in web novels since most of them are writted by "otaku" for "otakus".
The BIB is your answer, I also mentioned this in my original reply. Otaku culture is not mainstream in Japan, it's a counter culture and means a different thing in Japan to what it does here.
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Old 2015-01-23, 00:22   Link #9
Irenicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dullman View Post
Yes i know i that published novels or manga rarely have slavery in them, but the question is WN which is better to get insight of japanese otaku since creation of novels isn't restricted by editors and other parts of publishing industry, so when i read WN(must say my genre for WN is harem but other than Mushoku tensei i didn't read any WN in complete) and almost ewerywhere there are slavery i think it's something wrong.
I don't think the Shousetsuka ni Narou! website, where many if not almost all of these WNs originate from, count as a fair representation of otaku culture.

The publishing industry is very much part of otaku culture -- who staffs them? -- and the numbers, commercially and otherwise, are firmly on the side of these other mediums over those particular web novels.

I really hope the West isn't judged by its fanfiction communities.

Quote:
Hmm i give one examples it's the popular one novel about hero with shield who have problems with attack, then what his choice of action? Obviously buy a slave to help with this, for me if he want help he should just search for party but the author thinks otherwise.
I apologize, I meant in broad otaku culture items -- anime, manga, light novels, visual novels. That's where I meant you don't really find that stuff at all.

The WNs, yeah, I get you.

Quote:
What I can say that i dislike historical manga/anime etc. reason is one everytime I feel like there is a caste system in japan if you are born as peasant you will be a peasant all the time and every time you try to change it you will fail, although i feel like there is only one road to improve your standing by being strong fighter.
In medieval europe there many roads to improve, one was Church, other by buying title, or another one by fighting ability(here i mean also strategy or tactical talent)
I don't think you know enough about Japanese culture and history to make that judgment. Japanese social strata throughout its recorded history can prove remarkably fluid, and during the Sengoku Jidai the barrier between samurai and peasant blurred massively. The rigid 4-tier Confucian class system was truly instituted in place by Toyotomi Hideyoshi, ironically enough a peasant himself (seriously wtf dude), and the Tokugawa Shogunate kept a slightly milder version of it because it afforded them stability and control.

Even then, despite the strict regimentation, the peaceful centuries saw the growth in influence among the urban merchant classes, through the inevitability that money = power, despite being the least respected of the four classes in the Confucian system.

Meanwhile, ancient aristocrats in Kyoto clung to their noble, and to some, due to relations with the Imperial family, divine, heritage, living in a strange bubble of a world and looking down on the men of the sword.

And if there's the Church way of advancement in the West, then there's the Buddhist temples in Japan. All monks are created equal...sort of.

Quote:
I think you are partly right about slavery is badass, but for me it's something which make novel almost impossible (If i wouldn't know that in Mushoku Tensei MC has multiple children i would abandon in the moment when he buy a slave).
I think you absolutely misread me here. There's a reason I put those things in big bold letters. I'm making fun of that bullshit.
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Old 2015-01-23, 02:02   Link #10
Archon_Wing
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Considering the twisted individuals on the internet who have written some shit that should have never been seen by mortal eyes, I will not use such a thing such as "web fiction" to judge a culture.
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Old 2015-01-23, 02:21   Link #11
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
I really hope the West isn't judged by its fanfiction communities.
Why are Westerners obsessed with humanoid-bestiary theme in web fiction?

This is base on accurate insight of Western culture since creation of fanfictions isn't restricted by editors and other parts of publishing industry.

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Old 2015-02-02, 15:28   Link #12
Mechanizm
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Well it's just a Japanese thing





http://hentai666.com/sex-slave-volunteer-chapter-1-2/
http://hentai666.com/one-piece-bente...rei-kairanban/

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