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View Poll Results: To Aru Kagaku no Railgun - Episode 10 Rating
Perfect 10 13 17.81%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 26 35.62%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 17 23.29%
7 out of 10 : Good 10 13.70%
6 out of 10 : Average 4 5.48%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 2.74%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 1.37%
Voters: 73. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-12-05, 20:23   Link #41
BlueDo
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The Kuroko scenes were hilarious.
Especially how she took care of the level upper users, and when she teleported Uiharu on top of Mikoto.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Or it's a more simple 'control air' ability.
Saten is a really tricky person.
The wind is just a creative application of her heat ability
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Old 2009-12-06, 00:01   Link #42
Joe_fh
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Originally Posted by Nya~n View Post
First thing: She left her home and lived in a shut-in city in hopes of attaining those "amazing ESP abilities", and found out to her great disappointment that she had no potential. That when she was pretty young. What a way for a young girl's dreams to be crushed.

Second: With the disappointment of being a "worthless" Level 0, she sucks it up and continues studying in a city that has people with powers running all over. How would anyone else feel if others had want they want but it's something that they'll never be able to attain? That's like rubbing their wounds with salt and slashing it even deeper.

Well to tell you the truth I liked the way Saten's character looked at the start of the anime. I just have a problem with the way she acts and the resons behind her actions.

Your first point - well she clearly said she wanted power cause it's nice to have a power. Not because you can do stuff to help people but because you have it. That's one of the most stupid reasons to want a power in the first place. I think every young boy and girl's dreams are crushed when they're young. Everyone dreams to become something amazing but when the grow up they see that it's not going to happen. That's not really a reason cause everyone goes through that. Why should she be the special one out of the whole world so her actions can be justified.

Second sure she left her home and all that but she can go home at any time. It's up to her what to do. Take her friends for example - they had no ability but they were going to the library to study. I don't think they went to AC to just sit around - they also had dreams that were crushed but unlike Saten they really sucked it up and did something like study which she failed to do from what we saw. Also when they used the LU the didn't know it had side effects nor that it leads to a tendecy to commit crime since Saten left out that part. That's enough to make me dislike her in this situation. I mean when people talk about side effects they don't mean something nice will happen to you as an added bonus. It means something bad will happen.

For the question "How would anyone else feel if others had want they want but it's something that they'll never be able to attain?" I do believe this is true for at least 90% of the people on Earth. Does that mean everything they do is ok since they want something others have? Of course not. Everyone wants something others have and in most cases they don't have a way to get it. Again why is she someone we should consider special when most people go throgh the same thing without pulling off something stupid like what she did. She even put her firesnds in danger which was a wat bigger problem.

Last part
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nya~n View Post
True, what Ruiko did was undeniably selfish, but when you've got nothing and a scary option was offered, you can't choose. You're scared, and you'd want someone to hold your hand, and let their company give you strength.
This I believe was one of the simplest thing Saten failed to do. Yes it was selfish she had many other options if she just dropped the "I want an ability cause everyone has one and it's cool" thing. It's not a scary option it's a plain stupid option that you don't even know the outcome of and worst of all she didn't even care about it until it was already a done deal. Ok even if she was scared (and she was after all she did) she then decided to talk to her closest friend Uiharu. As you said you want someone to help you yet she didn't even reach out. It's not like she was alone with no one to talk to.

"Desperate? Yes. Despairing? Probably. Selfish? YES. Undeniably human? Definitely." you could toss in inconsiderate, stupid, for the wrong reasons, illegal dangerous and a few more. Whatever the case that's not an excuse to do any of this. If you consider it to be so than by that logic the world will fall apart since everyone will just do what they want since they just want something others have and they're only human so they can't help it.

Either way as far as I'm concerned Saten really got what was coming for her.

And also I don't mind your ava at all. In fact it's a nice pic. Well to tell you the truth I don't really care about a person's avatar while leading a discussion since it has no real impact on it but being a fan of a charactre or series could sometimes prevent you from actually seing the bad parts. Or at least that was the case for me more than once.

I enjoy the series overall I just can't feel sorry for someone like Saten.

That came a bit long so sorry about that^^
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Old 2009-12-06, 02:06   Link #43
durack
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Yeah, dragging her friends into the mess was a BAD thing, then again I do not think we should assume that the scenario writers necessarily want everyone to go "OMG POOR SATEN sniff sniff", for all we know they did it on purpose to add some complexity to the situation...

Hard to believe that the shifty eyed lady is the main villain and that the board of directors and Crowley are not aware of her project.
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Old 2009-12-06, 03:31   Link #44
Marcus H.
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How Saten was being "looked down at" (for lack of better terms) by some and yet being admired by others actually gave Saten more justice. It just makes her more human, in a way. It's been a while since I've been seeing people with a realistic array of characteristics.
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Old 2009-12-06, 05:42   Link #45
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_fh View Post
Your first point - well she clearly said she wanted power cause it's nice to have a power. Not because you can do stuff to help people but because you have it. That's one of the most stupid reasons to want a power in the first place. I think every young boy and girl's dreams are crushed when they're young. Everyone dreams to become something amazing but when the grow up they see that it's not going to happen. That's not really a reason cause everyone goes through that. Why should she be the special one out of the whole world so her actions can be justified.
I thought it was very clear that she wanted powers to help aswell. Just look at episode 1. And again in episode 9 when she was completely blanked out of the converstaion and also tried to help that guy who was getting beaten up but couldn't.

Quote:
Second sure she left her home and all that but she can go home at any time. It's up to her what to do. Take her friends for example - they had no ability but they were going to the library to study. I don't think they went to AC to just sit around - they also had dreams that were crushed but unlike Saten they really sucked it up and did something like study which she failed to do from what we saw.
From what we saw, yes but we saw very little. It is possible that she tried very hard and was just repeatedly let down and simply gave up. After all she did tell Uiharu that she understood her explanations but couldn't understand the school's.

Quote:
Also when they used the LU the didn't know it had side effects nor that it leads to a tendecy to commit crime since Saten left out that part. That's enough to make me dislike her in this situation. I mean when people talk about side effects they don't mean something nice will happen to you as an added bonus. It means something bad will happen.
We don't really know if Saten told them about the side effects. If she didn't I think that would've been a very stupid thing to do but not malicious.

Quote:
For the question "How would anyone else feel if others had want they want but it's something that they'll never be able to attain?" I do believe this is true for at least 90% of the people on Earth. Does that mean everything they do is ok since they want something others have? Of course not. Everyone wants something others have and in most cases they don't have a way to get it. Again why is she someone we should consider special when most people go throgh the same thing without pulling off something stupid like what she did. She even put her firesnds in danger which was a wat bigger problem.
I think it''s a different case for Saten. She's constantly surrounded by people who have what she wants and use it all the time. Imagine rubbing salt on your wound every single day. And Saten didn't just want it. It was her dream. You can see it from her reaction after getting powers. To others it wouldn't have been impressive, but to her it was the most amazing thing ever. And as we can see from her keeping her moms lucky charm I think she wanted to do it for them aswell.

Quote:
This I believe was one of the simplest thing Saten failed to do. Yes it was selfish she had many other options if she just dropped the "I want an ability cause everyone has one and it's cool" thing. It's not a scary option it's a plain stupid option that you don't even know the outcome of and worst of all she didn't even care about it until it was already a done deal. Ok even if she was scared (and she was after all she did) she then decided to talk to her closest friend Uiharu. As you said you want someone to help you yet she didn't even reach out. It's not like she was alone with no one to talk to.
If she dropped her hopes and dreams then it does make sense, but really. You make it sound as if it's the easiest thing to do, but it's possible that her veiwpoint streches far beyond this and is perhaps a pillar for how she views life. These sort of things aren't easy to just get rid of, even if you are aware of them. And all the episodes upto this point only made things worse for her, and constantly emphasised just how useless she was compared to others.

Quote:
"Desperate? Yes. Despairing? Probably. Selfish? YES. Undeniably human? Definitely." you could toss in inconsiderate, stupid, for the wrong reasons, illegal dangerous and a few more. Whatever the case that's not an excuse to do any of this. If you consider it to be so than by that logic the world will fall apart since everyone will just do what they want since they just want something others have and they're only human so they can't help it.
I don't think he was arguing that it was an excuse. Just that it was sympathetic. From what you say, it makes things sound as if Saten was a cold blooded monster. I guess that's why I find it odd. The only types that I wouldn't feel pity for are cold blooded monsters. I don't think it's fair to ever judge anyone really.
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Old 2009-12-06, 07:45   Link #46
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Joe_fh View Post
Well I must say Saten got what was coming for her especially after the first scene that showed that she wanted an ability for the sake of having an ability which I must say is plain stupid if you consider all the pros and cons in the situation. Later while she was talking to Uiharu she again said it was all about the ability and she said nothing about helping people. I can't understand her reasoning at all.
Who the hell gives over their whole lives to "helping others"? Precious few, that's who. On the other hand, wanting to be good at something for the fun of it... Well, there are plenty of athletes out there. And gamers. And fanfiction writers. And countless other inconsequential hobbies which nevertheless are serious business to those who practice them.

Quote:
After all that I really started to dislike her character mainly because she doen't seem to care how her action will reflect on her friends and that's amlost like not caring about them at all.
It would be great now if one of her friends died to teach her a lesson. You talk with your friends first and think about everything and than you do the things you think you need to do.
What, you need your friends to do your thinking for you?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_fh View Post
Well to tell you the truth I liked the way Saten's character looked at the start of the anime. I just have a problem with the way she acts and the resons behind her actions.

Your first point - well she clearly said she wanted power cause it's nice to have a power. Not because you can do stuff to help people but because you have it. That's one of the most stupid reasons to want a power in the first place. I think every young boy and girl's dreams are crushed when they're young. Everyone dreams to become something amazing but when the grow up they see that it's not going to happen. That's not really a reason cause everyone goes through that. Why should she be the special one out of the whole world so her actions can be justified.
A lot of dreams are crushed all the time, yes. But if a kid sees a chance to attain it, isn't it normal to reach for it?

Quote:
Second sure she left her home and all that but she can go home at any time. It's up to her what to do. Take her friends for example - they had no ability but they were going to the library to study. I don't think they went to AC to just sit around - they also had dreams that were crushed but unlike Saten they really sucked it up and did something like study which she failed to do from what we saw.
She hasn't become a delinquent or a bum. She's not the most serious of students, but if you think all students do nothing but study (let alone 13 years old kids), then you've never set foot in a school.

Quote:
Also when they used the LU the didn't know it had side effects nor that it leads to a tendecy to commit crime since Saten left out that part.
Did she? For that matter, does the LU have a side effect? She didn't know for sure. Does it lead to committing crime? She doesn't know either. Heck, I don't think it does, and we've seen more than she has.

Quote:
That's enough to make me dislike her in this situation. I mean when people talk about side effects they don't mean something nice will happen to you as an added bonus. It means something bad will happen.
Yes, but from what she'd heard, there were plenty of LU users walking around, so how bad could they be? Kuroko and the rest had stayed deliberately vague because the details were still more or less secret.
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Old 2009-12-06, 07:59   Link #47
Sol Falling
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I haven't really bothered to post in a while, but the Saten bashing is really fucking ridiculous. Here are some things you guys seem to have completely misconcieved:

First of all, Kuroko didn't tell Saten/Uiharu that level upper had side effects. She said it may have side effects. To Saten, not only was it completely vague what Level Upper's side effects were, she still had no idea that side effects were confirmed in the first place.

Two. Level upper is not illegal, and it does not induce its users to commit crime. The correlation is 'users of level upper often use it to commit crime', not 'level upper somehow brainwashes its users into becoming criminals'. As for taking its users into custody, again this was stated to be for their own safety due to the possible side effects--level upper is simply an underground aid that has not been officially endorsed by the city--there is no law prohibiting its usage (obviously its very shady, but there is nothing illegal about it).

Third, Saten's friends were ability users before level upper. As the one lifting a person said herself: 'before I could only lift a pencil' (or something; I forget). When they were talking about going to the library to study because they couldn't do anything to improve their abilities, that was the laziness of not being willing to work for their powers.

Do I feel sorry for Saten? I don't know, I must admit I'm not really one for pity in any circumstance. Do I feel sympathy for her, do I hope she gets better and feel for her as a fellow human? Yes, easily. Saten may have been weak, greedy, and too moved by envy, but to call her stupid or inconsiderate is an incredible exaggeration.
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Old 2009-12-06, 08:24   Link #48
Marcus H.
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Yes, I agree with Sol Falling here.

Being critics sometimes makes people forget being in the shoes of the one they are intensely putting into criticism.
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Old 2009-12-06, 09:19   Link #49
Shinji103
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I haven't really bothered to post in a while, but the Saten bashing is really fucking ridiculous. Here are some things you guys seem to have completely misconcieved:
Let's keep the language civilized here people, hmm? Unless you want to sound like a troll, of course.

Quote:
First of all, Kuroko didn't tell Saten/Uiharu that level upper had side effects. She said it may have side effects. To Saten, not only was it completely vague what Level Upper's side effects were, she still had no idea that side effects were confirmed in the first place.
And that exonerates her of all responsibility anyway? Indeed, she knew next to nothing about it, and that's exactly why she shouldn't have taken it, let alone pass it around to her friends.

Quote:
Two. Level upper is not illegal, and it does not induce its users to commit crime. The correlation is 'users of level upper often use it to commit crime', not 'level upper somehow brainwashes its users into becoming criminals'. As for taking its users into custody, again this was stated to be for their own safety due to the possible side effects--level upper is simply an underground aid that has not been officially endorsed by the city--there is no law prohibiting its usage (obviously its very shady, but there is nothing illegal about it).
I'm sure it's being passed around under-the-table suspiciously for fun, then. Legal or not, it's nothing short of negligent at best to use such an "obviously very shady" "drug." And this still doesn't give the green light for people to use it.

Quote:
Third, Saten's friends were ability users before level upper. As the one lifting a person said herself: 'before I could only lift a pencil' (or something; I forget). When they were talking about going to the library to study because they couldn't do anything to improve their abilities, that was the laziness of not being willing to work for their powers.
This......means nothing, actually. How does whether or not they were Espers prior to using Level Upper, exonerate Saten in any way for whatever happens to them as a result of using the Level Upper she gave to them?

Quote:
Do I feel sorry for Saten? I don't know, I must admit I'm not really one for pity in any circumstance. Do I feel sympathy for her, do I hope she gets better and feel for her as a fellow human? Yes, easily. Saten may have been weak, greedy, and too moved by envy, but to call her stupid or inconsiderate is an incredible exaggeration.
Do I hope she gets better? Yes. Do I hope she burns in hell or anything? No. Do I think she's still responsible for what happens to herself and the friends she gave Level Upper to? Absolutely. Criminal negligence is criminal negligence, no matter the person. You don't just ignore even the possibility of negative side effects and hand out a "drug" to other people.

And I'm a dang big defender of a lot of anime characters that anime watchers tend to bash on. Even some non-mecha-fans should know the significance of being a Shinji Ikari-supporter, and I'm one of them. I've been watching anime for 19 years, and I couldn't even give you the names of 10 anime characters I criticize. (with the exception of bad guys that you love to hate, of course)


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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Yes, I agree with Sol Falling here.

Being critics sometimes makes people forget being in the shoes of the one they are intensely putting into criticism.
Right. So that gives people the go-ahead to pass around "obviously very shady" and potentially dangerous "drugs" to others. Not seeing it.

I can tell you, that there have been many times that I've felt like Saten here in a variety of situations. And if I had ever found something like Saten did, I'd have reported the thing, not used it, and certainly not pass it around to others.
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Old 2009-12-06, 09:35   Link #50
Marcus H.
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I don't see Level Upper as the drugs that's been causing people to do crimes. There's just too many factors. Railgun has just showed us the "bad implications" of Level Upper like crimes around Gakuentoshi, and they clearly "outweighed" the good implications of Level Upper.

I want to blame Railgun for showing Level Upper as a bad thing generally, but LU isn't. It's just an exploitable power-up. It's actually the person who decides if he/she's gonna use the power-up responsibly or not. And as a secondary point, I want to blame those people for not thinking well and taking their powers for granted.
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Old 2009-12-06, 10:01   Link #51
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You keep talking about 'exoneration' and 'responsibility'. What exactly is your point by that? Are you saying Saten falling unconscious is the deserved consequence for her to 'take responsibility' for endangering her friends? Or what? How do exoneration and responsibility play into the matter here?

Everybody makes mistakes. Saten's, honestly, is not particularly huge. Certainly in no way comparable to taking and handing out drugs . There is nothing inherently wrong about the idea of a level upper--and as for the side effects,

Spoiler for future events; based on manga:

You laugh sarcastically about the level upper being traded 'suspiciously' under the table just for fun, but yes, basically, that's what it is. Level upper is not being handed out with any malicious intentions towards the user, and is ultimately harmless. I'd feel more sorry for Saten if she hadn't taken this brief opportunity to experience the joy of being an ability user, actually.
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Old 2009-12-06, 10:21   Link #52
Haak
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Right. So that gives people the go-ahead to pass around "obviously very shady" and potentially dangerous "drugs" to others. Not seeing it.
That's because no one ever said that. The argument isn't that what Saten did was okay, and it never was.

[edit]

Well okay, maybe some people are to some extent, but still...
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Old 2009-12-06, 10:48   Link #53
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Well they (some of the critics) might be looking at it from the wrong angle here. Many are assuming that this decision was based purely on just selfish want for power.

I see it as her alleviating this strong stigma that goes around about Level 0's.
I'll use stronger stigmas to see if I can put up a clearer picture of where her mind is at. Despite the obvious claims to the contrary I'll get from people's responses, just hear me out. Have you never felt the pull to get married, and start a family, to just get into a relationship, even if there is no real need for you to do that? Well, that's because there is an almost indeliable mark on people who are choosing to remain alone. With Saten, you see that people who can't or don't progress are seen as dropouts, failures, defective, like being in a permanent Special Education program, and for any of you who have been in one of those, its kinda humiliating.

Even Mikoto seems to have understood what was going through her head and doesn't condemn her for it, because she too, ran to seek something much higher when it wasn't "necessary." This is on top of a lot of different things people have already pointed out, crimes so bad the Anti-Skill/Judgment can't keep up, the danger/helplessness she must feel daily, but also having that will to want to do something even when its dangerous for her. All of these things we're a part of her thought processes.

Rather than thinking of her giving something dangerous to her friends, look at it this way. She is a middle school student. She is thinking they want it as badly as she does, and since they are her friends, she wants to help them. They have heard all the shady rumors of the Level Upper, and they aren't brainless animals, so they have decided to take it. She didn't force it onto their ears. If they had rejected it as too shady, I'm sure she would have just done it herself eventually, she wouldn't force them to do it. Yes, she didn't want to try using it alone, but they themselves tried it of their own volition. She was ignorant of the side effects until Akemi just collapsed, and she has only seen the good benefits of LU.
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Old 2009-12-06, 10:53   Link #54
Shinji103
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
You keep talking about 'exoneration' and 'responsibility'. What exactly is your point by that? Are you saying Saten falling unconscious is the deserved consequence for her to 'take responsibility' for endangering her friends? Or what? How do exoneration and responsibility play into the matter here?
Umm, "exoneration" and "responsibility" play into the matter here, because Saten isn't exonerated of the reponsibility of what has happened to herself and friends from using the Level Upper and giving it to them. She even admitted that she was cared of using it alone. I'm explaining why I can't and don't feel sympathetic to her at all, and why I criticize her for what she did.

Quote:
Everybody makes mistakes. Saten's, honestly, is not particularly huge. Certainly in no way comparable to taking and handing out drugs . There is nothing inherently wrong about the idea of a level upper--,
Now it's this, I apologize, naive way of thinking that gets people ripped off or hit with drug side effects in the first place. When I see a shady and susicious anything, especially something that has anything to do with affecting my body/mind balance/chemistry, I don't just go "okay, it should be fine to use" or "hey there won't be a problem if I use this thing and get doped with it." What proof or official statistic is there that says Level Upper is safe? This is naivety and negligence, in their most dangerous forms.

Quote:
and as for the side effects
Spoiler for future events; based on manga:
How does that change the fact that there are side effects of the Level Upper? How does that change the fact it was a suspicious, shady "item" that Saten should have exercised common sense with and gone "Hmm, I have no idea what this will do to me, maybe it'll give me powers, maybe it won't. I think I'll play it safe and not take the fishy mind/body-altering 'drug'."
Spoiler for In reply to Sol's spoiler:

Worse, actually, this episode she even admits to Uiharu that she was scared of taking it alone, hence she gave it to her friends, and thus showing us she even suspected herself that it was dangerous. Yet she ignored that fact and gave it to others as well as taking it herself. Then look what happened.
I like the ring of what Simmons said in Transformers RotF: "Sometimes you get to the end of the rainbow, and the Leprachauns went and booby-trapped it."

Quote:
You laugh sarcastically about the level upper being traded 'suspiciously' under the table just for fun, but yes, basically, that's what it is. Level upper is not being handed out with any malicious intentions towards the user, and is ultimately harmless. I'd feel more sorry for Saten if she hadn't taken this brief opportunity to experience the joy of being an ability user, actually.
Umm, so Saten and her friend falling unconscious from using Level Upper is harmless? Where are you coming up with this? I somehow doubt that Kiyama is spreading this thing around with the users' interests at heart.
So she's not handing out Level Upper with the express purpose of harming the users. Neither do heroine, dope, coke, and ecstasy dealers; they're not dealing drugs to hurt people, they're dealing the stuff for their own goals and purposes, in their case to make money. Are you going to say drug dealing is harmless too?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates View Post
Rather than thinking of her giving something dangerous to her friends, look at it this way. She is a middle school student. She is thinking they want it as badly as she does, and since they are her friends, she wants to help them. They have heard all the shady rumors of the Level Upper, and they aren't brainless animals, so they have decided to take it. She didn't force it onto their ears. If they had rejected it as too shady, I'm sure she would have just done it herself eventually, she wouldn't force them to do it. Yes, she didn't want to try using it alone, but they themselves tried it of their own volition. She was ignorant of the side effects until Akemi just collapsed, and she has only seen the good benefits of LU.
If she was so scared of using it that she didn't want to take it alone (a selfish and irresponsible thought in itself), she shouldn't have used it in the first place. Taking it with other people isn't going to prevent her or others from getting hit by whatever side effects it has, and just because they wanted to take it doesn't free Saten from the responsibility of giving it to them to take and possibly die from in the first place.
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Old 2009-12-06, 11:41   Link #55
Joe_fh
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I thought it was very clear that she wanted powers to help aswell. Just look at episode 1. And again in episode 9 when she was completely blanked out of the converstaion and also tried to help that guy who was getting beaten up but couldn't.
Well that was an argument that worked before she actually got her power in ep 10 when she clearly showed the reason for wanting a power which 1st couldn't really amke any difference in helping and secnd she said nothing about using it to help people at all.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
From what we saw, yes but we saw very little. It is possible that she tried very hard and was just repeatedly let down and simply gave up.
I highly doubdt that. Yes she coudln't gain a power but she could study seriously to achive something instead of going around doing nothing and be mind-absent in class.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
We don't really know if Saten told them about the side effects. If she didn't I think that would've been a very stupid thing to do but not malicious.
Well I doubt 3 people who's lives are ok will take something shady that might turn them into criminals and something even worse might happen. People seem to really forget the criminal tendency of LU users. We know only part of them are like since we know everything that happens around but Saten knows it most probably leads to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I think it''s a different case for Saten. She's constantly surrounded by people who have what she wants and use it all the time. Imagine rubbing salt on your wound every single day. And Saten didn't just want it. It was her dream. And as we can see from her keeping her moms lucky charm I think she wanted to do it for them aswell.
And that's because she surrounded herself with them. Only criminals and Judjement can use their power in the open.
Well her mother didn't even want her to go in the first place cause she though it was dangerous. That would mean that Sate just proved her point by doing somethin dangerous. Also she could always go back to her home and from what we know her mother would probably be happier and in no way dissapointed.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
If she dropped her hopes and dreams then it does make sense, but really. All the episodes upto this point only made things worse for her.
Yes but every person drops their childish dreams at one point. I seriously don't see a reason at all why she should be special. Everoyne's dreams go down in flames when the grow older but no one goes around doint what they want to do by sayin "well its my dream so it's ok and I had no idea that it might be dangerous". How do you see that happening in reality?

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I don't think he was arguing that it was an excuse. Just that it was sympathetic. From what you say, it makes things sound as if Saten was a cold blooded monster. I don't think it's fair to ever judge anyone really.
Well sorry if it sounded like that I didn't really meanit as such. I just said I can't feel sympathy towards her because her actions were wrong and she even involved her friends without understanding what she was getting them into which is even worse. So in this sense you could say she's cold blooded.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Who the hell gives over their whole lives to "helping others"? Precious few, that's who. On the other hand, wanting to be good at something for the fun of it... Well, there are plenty of athletes out there. And gamers. And fanfiction writers. And countless other inconsequential hobbies which nevertheless are serious business to those who practice them.
Yep you're right people like those are rare. But we saw taht in general Saten didn't want a power to help people she wanted it because she wanted it for the sake of having one. And yes hobbies are serious business but I don't see how that can work as an excuse for them to do somthing similar to what Saten did.
Shinji's example with the athletes and steroids a few episodes back still works best for this situation

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
What, you need your friends to do your thinking for you?
Well really now I never said that. Anyway when you're depressed and about to do something that is obviously dangerous you usally talk to people. At least that's the normal way to do things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
A lot of dreams are crushed all the time, yes. But if a kid sees a chance to attain it, isn't it normal to reach for it?
In a case where you use a shady mp3.file that people beat each other for, is inviestigated at the moment and from what Satem knew it most probably led to commiting crimes had and had unkwon side effects absolutely NO. I can't see how someone could even consider this is ok to do.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
She hasn't become a delinquent or a bum. She's not the most serious of students, but if you think all students do nothing but study (let alone 13 years old kids), then you've never set foot in a school.
I have no idea what kids do in school and from waht I see around me I do believe it's not study. Anyways when I was 13 years old I studied a lot^^ Of course no one can study all that time but from what we've seen it's not like she's trying.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Did she? For that matter, does the LU have a side effect? She didn't know for sure. Does it lead to committing crime? She doesn't know either. Heck, I don't think it does, and we've seen more than she has.
Well "people who use it seem to have a tendency to commit crimes and it probably has unknow side effects" coming from people who are investigating an uknow device that lets you level up in an uknown way and is sold "under the table" seems to give a pretty good idea it's dangerous. The "we've seen more than she has" part actually makes you think that. Saten doesn't know all the things we know. The only info she has about it is the one I just said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Yes, but from what she'd heard, there were plenty of LU users walking around, so how bad could they be? Kuroko and the rest had stayed deliberately vague because the details were still more or less secret.
Where was it mentioned at all there were plenty of LU users walking around? In fact Saten didn't even know the ones the encountered in the early episodes where LU users. The only thing that she knew about it was what Kuroko told her which I said above.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I haven't really bothered to post in a while, but the Saten bashing is really fucking ridiculous. Here are some things you guys seem to have completely misconcieved:
Lol I never though I could use the F word. Kind of makes me annoyed I always refrained to use it
Anyways I would say that Saten bashing is more pointless thar ridiculous since epople have different views and in most cases you can't change their view with talking to them on a forum since for one thing the have no idea who you are and they don't care. But hey it's not like there's somehing else in Railgun to talk about right now.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
First of all, Kuroko didn't tell Saten/Uiharu that level upper had side effects. She said it may have side effects. To Saten, not only was it completely vague what Level Upper's side effects were, she still had no idea that side effects were confirmed in the first place.
Yes it may have side effects and the people who use it have a tendency to commit crime. Yes that is vague indeed and she had no idea if there were any side effects or what they were. Also on that note she had no idea if it would work. So how does using it makes any sense at all? There's a term in law "Criminal negligence". Ignorance doesn't justify doing something bad.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Two. Level upper is not illegal, and it does not induce its users to commit crime. The correlation is 'users of level upper often use it to commit crime', not 'level upper somehow brainwashes its users into becoming criminals'. As for taking its users into custody, again this was stated to be for their own safety due to the possible side effects--level upper is simply an underground aid that has not been officially endorsed by the city--there is no law prohibiting its usage (obviously its very shady, but there is nothing illegal about it).
Indeed from a general point of view youre absolutely right. There were a lot of people that just used it without commiting any crimes at all. But Saten didn't know that we did. Kuroko told her something completely different. You can't use what we know to explain what a character that had no idead about those things did. Yes it's not illegal since there's no law agianst it. I just used since it would take much more time to list all the cons of using it and illegal is way shorter and implies that it's really bad.
And seriously when did the police ever investigate somthing that's ok to use unless there was something shady and bad about it? Judjment play the role of the police in To Aru and Anti skill is more like the SWAT unit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Third, Saten's friends were ability users before level upper. As the one lifting a person said herself: 'before I could only lift a pencil' (or something; I forget). When they were talking about going to the library to study because they couldn't do anything to improve their abilities, that was the laziness of not being willing to work for their powers.
Yes it turned out like this in the end. Still I don't see how that relates to what Saten did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Do I feel sorry for Saten? I don't know, I must admit I'm not really one for pity in any circumstance. Do I feel sympathy for her, do I hope she gets better and feel for her as a fellow human? Yes, easily. Saten may have been weak, greedy, and too moved by envy, but to call her stupid or inconsiderate is an incredible exaggeration.
Well I feel she got what was coming to her. I also want her to get better for one thing she did something that hurt her friends not only her which is really selfish and if something even worse happens to her her firends (mostly Uiharu ) will suffer even more. Also I want her to get better so she could face the concequences of her actions. And I don't like to see people suffer in general because they did something stupid but they have to learn from their mistakes.

Stupid implies she is not smart which is probably not true even if she doesn't seem to study much but I said she did something stupid as in something not smart which doesn't actually mean she's not smart. And Inconsiderate is just fine considering what she did.

Either way don't get me wrong I'm not bashing Saten as a character. I'm only bashing her for her actions this (and the end of the previous) episode. She has no excuse for what she did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Being critics sometimes makes people forget being in the shoes of the one they are intensely putting into criticism.
Same goes for defending a character's actions.
Also
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
I don't see Level Upper as the drugs that's been causing people to do crimes. There's just too many factors. Railgun has just showed us the "bad implications" of Level Upper like crimes around Gakuentoshi, and they clearly "outweighed" the good implications of Level Upper.

I want to blame Railgun for showing Level Upper as a bad thing generally, but LU isn't. It's just an exploitable power-up. It's actually the person who decides if he/she's gonna use the power-up responsibly or not. And as a secondary point, I want to blame those people for not thinking well and taking their powers for granted.
Again we knew this she didn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates View Post
Well they (some of the critics) might be looking at it from the wrong angle here. Many are assuming that this decision was based purely on just selfish want for power.

I see it as her alleviating this strong stigma that goes around about Level 0's.
I'll use stronger stigmas to see if I can put up a clearer picture of where her mind is at. Despite the obvious claims to the contrary I'll get from people's responses, just hear me out. Have you never felt the pull to get married, and start a family, to just get into a relationship, even if there is no real need for you to do that? Well, that's because there is an almost indeliable mark on people who are choosing to remain alone. With Saten, you see that people who can't or don't progress are seen as dropouts, failures, defective, like being in a permanent Special Education program, and for any of you who have been in one of those, its kinda humiliating.

Even Mikoto seems to have understood what was going through her head and doesn't condemn her for it, because she too, ran to seek something much higher when it wasn't "necessary." This is on top of a lot of different things people have already pointed out, crimes so bad the Anti-Skill/Judgment can't keep up, the danger/helplessness she must feel daily, but also having that will to want to do something even when its dangerous for her. All of these things we're a part of her thought processes.
You have a point but I don't really see how this can justifies any of her actions at all. Y
Also as we saw most of the crimes were caused by people that used the LU in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates View Post
Rather than thinking of her giving something dangerous to her friends, look at it this way. She is a middle school student. She is thinking they want it as badly as she does, and since they are her friends, she wants to help them. They have heard all the shady rumors of the Level Upper, and they aren't brainless animals, so they have decided to take it. She didn't force it onto their ears. If they had rejected it as too shady, I'm sure she would have just done it herself eventually, she wouldn't force them to do it. Yes, she didn't want to try using it alone, but they themselves tried it of their own volition. She was ignorant of the side effects until Akemi just collapsed, and she has only seen the good benefits of LU.
All they knew about he LU was that it increased someone's level and it was expensive. Sorry or saying this again and agian in one post but she knew that it most probably is dangerous for the user and is also under investigation form Judjemnt which plays the role of the Police in AC. If they knew all this I doubt they would have used it.
Also that was extremely selfsih and inconsiderate of her. When you don't have the resolve to do something shady and dangerous getting you're friends to do it with you is by no means OK in fact it makes things even worse. on top of that skipping the part that it's actually dangerous is really wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinji103 View Post
Umm, so Saten and her friend falling unconscious from using Level Upper is harmless? Where are you coming up with this? I somehow doubt that Kiyama is spreading this thing around with the users' interests at heart.
So she's not handing out Level Upper with the express purpose of harming the users. Neither do heroine, dope, coke, and ecstasy dealers; they're not dealing drugs to hurt people, they're dealing the stuff for their own goals and purposes, in their case to make money. Are you going to say drug dealing is harmless too?
That is a very good point.

Anyways sorry about this wall of text but I felt like I needed to reply to everyone since most of this was in response to my comment. It's probably full of spelling mistakes but I believe you could get the general idea^^
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Old 2009-12-06, 11:52   Link #56
Haak
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^ And you missed my ninja edits too. Doesn't matter. i don't think it's fair to reply since you're arguing with so many others.

I'll just make one point: Saten's dream was far from childish and was very much realistic.
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Old 2009-12-06, 12:19   Link #57
Cyrus17
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Very good episode for me (but not for everyone I reckon).

You see, for me, unlike many others, the most important thing in Railgun was (and is) its moeblob side. Not action, not sci-fi and not Touma, not the plot at all. And here in 10th ep. I got the moeblob things I like - namely cute moeblobs roaming around the screen, meeting, chatting, solving problems, emotionally reacting. Big THUMBS UP guys, I mean authors and producers, especially Nagai Tatsuyuki (director).

I so love all the "normal" scenes with four main moeblobs, like here:


and here


and this one


and all the others

The girlies are too cute

Anyway, they combined moeblob stuff and plot development perfectly. Enjoyed the ep. from the beginning to the end of preview
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Old 2009-12-06, 12:20   Link #58
Joe_fh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
^ And you missed my ninja edits too. Doesn't matter. i don't think it's fair to reply since you're arguing with so many others.

I'll just make one point: Saten's dream was far from childish and was very much realistic.
No feel free to reply^^ it just might take time to get back to you.
Sorry I miessed your edits but that took a long time to type

Well so is every childs dream until a certain point in time. For Saten that was the moment she actually came to AC. Of course the LU changed all that yet her dream remained childish (at least for me) because from all the things she said during this episode it seemed the reason she wanted power just because most people around her had one. That's like saying you want more money because you'll be able to hang out with "the cool kids" which ceratinly falls under the "childsih things" category in my book.
And it doesn't really matter if it was childish or not sicne in the end she did something that was wrong, incosiderate, dangerous and ot top of that involved her friends. I believe that if it's not something your life depends upon the the end justifies the means or at lest I like to think so. This wasn't the case in this situation.

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Originally Posted by Cyrus17 View Post
Very good episode for me (but not for everyone I reckon).
haha don't get me wrong I never said I disliked the episode. We're jsut discussing if we feel sorry for Saten and were her actions justified.
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Old 2009-12-06, 12:35   Link #59
Altima of the Gates
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@ Joe_fh:
Quote:
All they knew about he LU was that it increased someone's level and it was expensive. Sorry or saying this again and again in one post but she knew that it most probably is dangerous for the user and is also under investigation form Judgment which plays the role of the Police in AC. If they knew all this I doubt they would have used it.
Also that was extremely selfsih and inconsiderate of her. When you don't have the resolve to do something shady and dangerous getting you're friends to do it with you is by no means OK in fact it makes things even worse. on top of that skipping the part that it's actually dangerous is really wrong.
Well, the only reason Judgment is even going after people using the Level Upper is the extortionist practices and criminal activities of people using it. If people kept their noses clean and just tried to improve themselves from there, we wouldn't find anything out until people went into comas suddenly.
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Old 2009-12-06, 12:38   Link #60
Haak
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Originally Posted by Joe_fh View Post
No feel free to reply^^ it just might take time to get back to you.
Sorry I miessed your edits but that took a long time to type

Well so is every childs dream until a certain point in time. For Saten that was the moment she actually came to AC. Of course the LU changed all that yet her dream remained childish (at least for me) because from all the things she said during this episode it seemed the reason she wanted power just because most people around her had one. That's like saying you want more money because you'll be able to hang out with "the cool kids" which ceratinly falls under the "childsih things" category in my book.
Okay well I guess that ties in with what you said here:

Quote:
Well that was an argument that worked before she actually got her power in ep 10 when she clearly showed the reason for wanting a power which 1st couldn't really amke any difference in helping and secnd she said nothing about using it to help people at all.
I'm not sure I understand here. Sure she was thrilled for having a power that wasn't useful but you have to start somewhere.

About not saying that she wanted to use to help, well, we've had the last nine episodes of her constantly feeling useless and her saying so (and you agree aswell), so I don't think it was all that neccessary.

But lets review what she said when she talked to Uiharu:

"I hated myself because i had no abilities" (why would she do that?)

"And I couldn't stop myself from admiring those who had them (why would she do that?)

*Cue flashback* "Mama" (Maybe a part of her didn't want to disappoint her mother?)

"Does being Level Zero mean that your defective?" (hmm)

I think the fact that she hated herself for being Level Zero clearly suggests it wasn't a childish dream. It seems a bit extreme for hating yourself simply because others have abilities and you don't, which it why i think it ties into her feeling useless in previous episodes. And like I said, she constantly surrounding by those who had abilities. She's living in a city where ability means everything. I'm sure it ties in with studies too. Perhaps she could've left, but I'm convinced she would've felt even more of a failure for doing so and she probably thought that her mother would've felt the same too (even though we know she wouldn't have)

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Originally Posted by Joe_fh View Post
haha don't get me wrong I never said I disliked the episode. We're jsut discussing if we feel sorry for Saten and were her actions justified.
As Marcus said, I think the fact that Saten's character leaves room for alternative character interpretation another strong point.
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