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View Poll Results: To Aru Kagaku no Railgun - Episode 10 Rating
Perfect 10 13 17.81%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 26 35.62%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 17 23.29%
7 out of 10 : Good 10 13.70%
6 out of 10 : Average 4 5.48%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 2.74%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 1.37%
Voters: 73. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-12-06, 13:14   Link #61
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinji103 View Post
Umm, "exoneration" and "responsibility" play into the matter here, because Saten isn't exonerated of the reponsibility of what has happened to herself and friends from using the Level Upper and giving it to them. She even admitted that she was cared of using it alone. I'm explaining why I can't and don't feel sympathetic to her at all, and why I criticize her for what she did.
I guess my basic point here was, as Haak said, that a character doesn't have to be exonerated in order for us to feel sympathy. Again, everyone makes mistakes. Saten's was not a particularly terrible one (this is my point of argumentation).

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Now it's this, I apologize, naive way of thinking that gets people ripped off or hit with drug side effects in the first place. When I see a shady and susicious anything, especially something that has anything to do with affecting my body/mind balance/chemistry, I don't just go "okay, it should be fine to use" or "hey there won't be a problem if I use this thing and get doped with it." What proof or official statistic is there that says Level Upper is safe? This is naivety and negligence, in their most dangerous forms.

How does that change the fact that there are side effects of the Level Upper? How does that change the fact it was a suspicious, shady "item" that Saten should have exercised common sense with and gone "Hmm, I have no idea what this will do to me, maybe it'll give me powers, maybe it won't. I think I'll play it safe and not take the fishy mind/body-altering 'drug'."
Spoiler for In reply to Sol's spoiler:

Worse, actually, this episode she even admits to Uiharu that she was scared of taking it alone, hence she gave it to her friends, and thus showing us she even suspected herself that it was dangerous. Yet she ignored that fact and gave it to others as well as taking it herself. Then look what happened.
I like the ring of what Simmons said in Transformers RotF: "Sometimes you get to the end of the rainbow, and the Leprachauns went and booby-trapped it."
Level upper isn't a physical substance, isn't something you ingest, so the degree to which it can potentially effect body/mind balance/chemistry is again completely incomparable to drugs. Think about it, seriously. What kind of side effects could some measly .mp3 file possibly have? Most imaginable possibilities fall under minor inconveniences like headaches, blurry vision, or insomnia. Falling unconscious (permanently? This is only believable because we know level upper is a network) is about as bad as that line of thinking will get. The possible negative consequences are nowhere near the level of drugs.

Spoiler:


Quote:
Umm, so Saten and her friend falling unconscious from using Level Upper is harmless? Where are you coming up with this? I somehow doubt that Kiyama is spreading this thing around with the users' interests at heart.
So she's not handing out Level Upper with the express purpose of harming the users. Neither do heroine, dope, coke, and ecstasy dealers; they're not dealing drugs to hurt people, they're dealing the stuff for their own goals and purposes, in their case to make money. Are you going to say drug dealing is harmless too?
Spoiler:


Quote:
If she was so scared of using it that she didn't want to take it alone (a selfish and irresponsible thought in itself), she shouldn't have used it in the first place. Taking it with other people isn't going to prevent her or others from getting hit by whatever side effects it has, and just because they wanted to take it doesn't free Saten from the responsibility of giving it to them to take and possibly die from in the first place.
lol 'die'. I will admit that Saten dragging her friends into it bothered me. Somehow I don't remember Saten seeming so cowardly in the manga. I'm too lazy to check, but on the basis of that vague feeling I'm going to claim that it seemed more evident there that the friends wanted it and would have taken it on their own if they could anyway.
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Old 2009-12-06, 13:32   Link #62
Joe_fh
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Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates View Post
Well, the only reason Judgment is even going after people using the Level Upper is the extortionist practices and criminal activities of people using it. If people kept their noses clean and just tried to improve themselves from there, we wouldn't find anything out until people went into comas suddenly.
Indeed they wouldn't have been investigating it but that not because using an unkwon device to increase your level in an way that's not really safe (since you found it in a hidden link on the internet) and to increase your ability it has to mess up with your brain is OK. That would be because there wasn't any proof the LU exsisted at all. I would imagine the ability test take place once or twice a year thus increasing 1 or 2 levels in that period of time wouldn't be so suspicous. The moment they found out it existed the started investigating it. Either way I believe if they found out it was really out there they would have investigated it either way since it was something shady that wroked aroun all the know methods of increasing someone's level.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I'm not sure I understand here. Sure she was thrilled for having a power that wasn't useful but you have to start somewhere.

About not saying that she wanted to use to help, well, we've had the last nine episodes of her constantly feeling useless and her saying so (and you agree aswell), so I don't think it was all that neccessary.

But lets review what she said when she talked to Uiharu:

"I hated myself because i had no abilities" (why would she do that?)

"And I couldn't stop myself from admiring those who had them (why would she do that?)

*Cue flashback* "Mama" (Maybe a part of her didn't want to disappoint her mother?)

"Does being Level Zero mean that your defective?" (hmm)

I think the fact that she hated herself for being Level Zero clearly suggests it wasn't a childish dream. It seems a bit extreme for hating yourself simply because others have abilities and you don't, which it why i think it ties into her feeling useless in previous episodes. And like I said, she constantly surrounding by those who had abilities. She's living in a city where ability means everything. I'm sure it ties in with studies too. Perhaps she could've left, but I'm convinced she would've felt even more of a failure for doing so and she probably thought that her mother would've felt the same too (even though we know she wouldn't have)
Well yes you have a point but it doens't really seem she was going to help because she had an ability or not. That's determined by her character not abilites so the reason for wanting one was not conected with helping, or at least I don't see it like that.

"I hated myself because i had no abilities" and "Does being Level Zero mean that your defective?" basically mean the same thing - she was different from most people around her because she didn't have an ability and thus the iferiority complex thing we saw up until episode 9. I do believe that everyone has something they want and others have but few people actually get depressed by it especially when you have nice friends that stay around and care a lot about you despite the fact that you think you're inferior to them as a human being which isn't really the case IMO since ability doens't mean everything to a person or at least it shouldn't.
"And I couldn't stop myself from admiring those who had them" well this could be for a number of reason that support both points of view. Admiration can be caused by many things and in this case I think back to episode one whe Saten said "amazing" when she saw Misaka's power which again can mean both things. First it can mean amazing as in it's so cool to have an ability and second amazing as in "it's amazing how she can help people in danger" (well at that moment she blasted a car 20m into the air but the general idea was that she did it to protect someone).

I believe a person can hate himself for a lot of things even if they're childish. That of course doen't really mean theyr'e right. In general there are people who think too much of themselves and people who think too little of themselves. Saten fall in the second group.
Take Uiharu for example - se's a level one that has alway been a level one. From everything we know about her it seems she really tires her best in everything she does which probably means she doens't have the potentila to develop it any furthrer. On top of that she's working in Judjment wherre she's surrouned by even more people with powerfull abilities than Saten so in a sense she should feel the same way Saten does. To tis day we have no idea what her ability is and we've never seen her using it which mean that with just hard work she became a great person that can help others even she is techically powerless to do anything when bad guys are involved. We gat this paralel between the two charater whcih both are in a similar postion yet one of them is determined to work hard and do what she can and the other is doing something selfish and dangerous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Level upper isn't a physical substance, isn't something you ingest, so the degree to which it can potentially effect body/mind balance/chemistry is again completely incomparable to drugs. Think about it, seriously. What kind of side effects could some measly .mp3 file possibly have? Most imaginable possibilities fall under minor inconveniences like headaches, blurry vision, or insomnia. Falling unconscious (permanently? This is only believable because we know level upper is a network) is about as bad as that line of thinking will get. The possible negative consequences are nowhere near the level of drugs.

Spoiler:
In fact a level Upper is way more dangeorus than drugs since everyone in AC should know that the abilites come form the brain. So a LU should tamper with your brain in some way. How doesn that seem safe especially when you have no idea where it came from? A drug only temporary changes your state of mind while the LU makes a permanent change which doesn't only stimulate the senses like drugs do - it gives you powers. That alone should be enough to understand that it's way more dangeroud than a drug coul ever be.
Not saying drugs are safe....you all know that right?
It's dangerous to use drugs^^

Yet you're saying that because you actually know the outcome. They don't. When someone who is doing just fine goes into a come it's by no means harmless and in fact seem very dangerous and eve scary. For all the know the victims might never wake up or even worse die after a few days.
For a viewer than knows everything including how it will all edn something miht not feel like a big deal but in fact for a character that has no idea what the future holds there is only "now" and the immediate consequences of their actions.

Last edited by Joe_fh; 2009-12-06 at 13:44.
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Old 2009-12-06, 14:25   Link #63
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Joe_fh View Post
Well that was an argument that worked before she actually got her power in ep 10 when she clearly showed the reason for wanting a power which 1st couldn't really amke any difference in helping and secnd she said nothing about using it to help people at all.
Yes, yes, we get it. You're a goddamn saint and everything you do is for the sake of helping people. Please realize it's an unrealistic expectation to put on others.

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I highly doubdt that. Yes she coudln't gain a power but she could study seriously to achive something instead of going around doing nothing and be mind-absent in class.
From the get-go, she never had the ambition or drive to achieve greatness. Who does? Again, very few people. She just wanted to have fun. Like most children out there. From that point of view, she didn't do too badly.


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Well I doubt 3 people who's lives are ok will take something shady that might turn them into criminals and something even worse might happen.
What are you talking about? People with great lives piss it all away by taking drugs all the time.

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People seem to really forget the criminal tendency of LU users.
We're not forgetting it, we're doubting it. Sure, Kuroko mentioned such a tendency, but why? Correlation isn't causation. And even that correlation is in doubt. Not only do we not know who used the LU - it's possible that mostly delinquents used it, for example - but it's obvious that, of those, the ones Judgment would hear about are those dumb enough to make something to get arrested. That'd make for a serious sample bias.

Sure, it's possible that the boost in power resulted in a boost in confidence, which in turn made people more aggressive. So? If you're relatively law abiding in the first place, is a bit more confidence going to turn you into a criminal?

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We know only part of them are like since we know everything that happens around but Saten knows it most probably leads to it.
She knows very little. The manga translation I read's even more ambiguous. What Kuroko said could have been interpreted as "those who go for easy solutions like the LU are more likely to turn to crime". Which is all very nice for an elite like her to say, but would sound pretty unconvincing (not to mention holier-than-thou) to a level 0 like Saten.

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And that's because she surrounded herself with them. Only criminals and Judjement can use their power in the open.
What are you talking about? They all can. As long as they don't break laws. There are places like Tokiwaidai's dorm where it's indeed forbidden, but there's never been talk of a global ban.

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Well her mother didn't even want her to go in the first place cause she though it was dangerous. That would mean that Sate just proved her point by doing somethin dangerous. Also she could always go back to her home and from what we know her mother would probably be happier and in no way dissapointed.


Yes but every person drops their childish dreams at one point. I seriously don't see a reason at all why she should be special. Everoyne's dreams go down in flames when the grow older but no one goes around doint what they want to do by sayin "well its my dream so it's ok and I had no idea that it might be dangerous". How do you see that happening in reality?


Well sorry if it sounded like that I didn't really meanit as such. I just said I can't feel sympathy towards her because her actions were wrong and she even involved her friends without understanding what she was getting them into which is even worse. So in this sense you could say she's cold blooded.
Or, you know, normal.


Quote:
Yep you're right people like those are rare. But we saw taht in general Saten didn't want a power to help people she wanted it because she wanted it for the sake of having one. And yes hobbies are serious business but I don't see how that can work as an excuse for them to do somthing similar to what Saten did.
Shinji's example with the athletes and steroids a few episodes back still works best for this situation
I'm saying I find, independently of Saten's action, your insistence that she should only want things to help others be unsightly. Yes, she wanted something for herself. So? It's wrong to want things, now?

She never meant any harm. At that point, the LU was barely more than an urban legend. She knew it existed, and she had some evidence it worked. But how bad could a music file be?


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Well really now I never said that. Anyway when you're depressed and about to do something that is obviously dangerous you usally talk to people. At least that's the normal way to do things.
The normal way is to talk to people who'll tell you what you want to hear. If you don't actually want to do it, you'll seek to people who'll talk you out of it. If you do, you'll seek those who'll encourage you, or better yet, accompany you.

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In a case where you use a shady mp3.file that people beat each other for,
Like any fad, it's worth money, yes. So?

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is inviestigated at the moment and from what Satem knew it most probably led to commiting crimes
"Most probably"? No.

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had and had unkwon side effects absolutely NO.
Everything can have unknown side effects. Maybe my next sentence will make your head explode. Are you going to keep reading?

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I can't see how someone could even consider this is ok to do.
It's a bit on the reckless side, yes. But understandable.

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I have no idea what kids do in school and from waht I see around me I do believe it's not study. Anyways when I was 13 years old I studied a lot^^ Of course no one can study all that time but from what we've seen it's not like she's trying.
Which, again, is entirely normal. Kids goof around. What else is new?

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Well "people who use it seem to have a tendency to commit crimes and it probably has unknow side effects" coming from people who are investigating an uknow device that lets you level up in an uknown way and is sold "under the table" seems to give a pretty good idea it's dangerous. The "we've seen more than she has" part actually makes you think that. Saten doesn't know all the things we know. The only info she has about it is the one I just said.
In other words, she knows Kuroko knows nothing.

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Where was it mentioned at all there were plenty of LU users walking around? In fact Saten didn't even know the ones the encountered in the early episodes where LU users. The only thing that she knew about it was what Kuroko told her which I said above.
Plenty of LU users committing crimes -> plenty of LU users. Especially if you take into account that for everyone one of them captured, there's an indeterminate number of people who didn't do anything and thus weren't spotted.
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Old 2009-12-06, 15:35   Link #64
Joe_fh
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Yes, yes, we get it. You're a goddamn saint and everything you do is for the sake of helping people. Please realize it's an unrealistic expectation to put on others.
hah that came out of nowhere especially since it was never my point at all. People used the "helping other people" part to justify what she did and I simply said this wasn't the reason she used the LU - she used it for herself.
Wierd how you got that idea after all the things I said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
From the get-go, she never had the ambition or drive to achieve greatness. Who does? Again, very few people. She just wanted to have fun. Like most children out there. From that point of view, she didn't do too badly.
And I don't see how that relates to what I said. I said she could achieve something not achieve greatness. Those are two different things.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
What are you talking about? People with great lives piss it all away by taking drugs all the time.
Sadly you have a point. People tend to do that but I don't believe even half of the ones with good lives do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
We're not forgetting it, we're doubting it. Sure, Kuroko mentioned such a tendency, but why? Correlation isn't causation. And even that correlation is in doubt. Not only do we not know who used the LU - it's possible that mostly delinquents used it, for example - but it's obvious that, of those, the ones Judgment would hear about are those dumb enough to make something to get arrested. That'd make for a serious sample bias.
Yes we do because we know a lot of stuff Saten doens't. Come on if a police officer said "people who use this have a tendency to commit crime" You would go "yeah right"?
Of course as viewers we already know it depends what kind of preson used it and most of them did nothing bad. That again dosn't change the fact that Saten had no idea about this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Sure, it's possible that the boost in power resulted in a boost in confidence, which in turn made people more aggressive. So? If you're relatively law abiding in the first place, is a bit more confidence going to turn you into a criminal?
Well actually in reality such people tend to do stupid things in the end that lend them in jail.
Either way what I just said above applies here as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
She knows very little. The manga translation I read's even more ambiguous. What Kuroko said could have been interpreted as "those who go for easy solutions like the LU are more likely to turn to crime". Which is all very nice for an elite like her to say, but would sound pretty unconvincing (not to mention holier-than-thou) to a level 0 like Saten.
We're talking about the anime here and what Kuroko said was really clear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
What are you talking about? They all can. As long as they don't break laws. There are places like Tokiwaidai's dorm where it's indeed forbidden, but there's never been talk of a global ban.
I guess there isn't a global ban on using powers but what I meant was that generally we don't see people actually using them. During these 10 episodes when did you ever see a random character use theri abilities on the street? The only one that came close was the pool cleaning scene but it wasn't done i public.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Or, you know, normal.
So givng drugs with unkwon side effects to your firends is normal? Seriously?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I'm saying I find, independently of Saten's action, your insistence that she should only want things to help others be unsightly. Yes, she wanted something for herself. So? It's wrong to want things, now?
Again this is one of my points to begin with. In fact all this time I kept saying she was doing it for herself thus being really selfish and she wasn't doing this for others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
She never meant any harm. At that point, the LU was barely more than an urban legend. She knew it existed, and she had some evidence it worked. But how bad could a music file be?
As I just said in my previous post the oonly way a level upper can work is to mess with your brain which in terms can be really bad especially if you have no idea what it does exactly. Meaning no harm isn't an excuse never was never will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
The normal way is to talk to people who'll tell you what you want to hear. If you don't actually want to do it, you'll seek to people who'll talk you out of it. If you do, you'll seek those who'll encourage you, or better yet, accompany you.
Well I have no idea actually. usually I ask the people closest to me and I make my choice after I hear them out. Of course if I really want to do it it doesn't actully matter what they said to me. But Saten skipped this part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
"Most probably"? No.
Most probably yes. There were no evidence of people using the LU and not commiting crimes. The only people that were known to have used the LU were violent people that commited crimes. So basically with the knowledge the characters have it seems to be the logical conclusion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Everything can have unknown side effects. Maybe my next sentence will make your head explode. Are you going to keep reading?
That actually is not an example of the situation at all.
The question here is if I met you on the street (you've never seem me before in your life) gave you a pill and said "use it and you'll become really smart" would you actually take it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
It's a bit on the reckless side, yes. But understandable.
So you would consider the above example understandable an take the pill?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
In other words, she knows Kuroko knows nothing.
Nope she knows what she was told by a person that works in the equivalent of the AC police - that people who use the LU have a tendency to commit crime and it has unkown side effects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Plenty of LU users committing crimes -> plenty of LU users. Especially if you take into account that for everyone one of them captured, there's an indeterminate number of people who didn't do anything and thus weren't spotted.
Thus proving the point that people who use the LU commit crimes. No one knew about the ones that weren't spotted until they went into a coma.
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Old 2009-12-06, 15:36   Link #65
germanturkey
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wow, lots of discussion for this episode huh? anywho, powerful moment in the middle of this ep. The montage of Kuroko taking down bad guys was pretty great too. then the warp of Uiharu onto Misaka's head. haha.

next ep, finally, more Misaka action!
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Old 2009-12-06, 15:43   Link #66
Ansalem
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There's too much going on now for me to give a point-to-point rebuttal for every argument here, so I'll just give my own spiel, starting with the most obvious thing:

1. Saten is a middle school girl! She's just a kid. People are talking about taking responsibility and ignoring childish dreams as though she is an independent adult. She's not.

2. Level Uppers aren't the same as crack cocaine or whatever other drug. It's not a illicit substance widely known to the public for long periods of time. It's not banned by the government. It has a purpose to improve something; it's not just for getting high. Saten heard them say that they're not sure because they're investigating, but it may have side affects and be related to crime. Again, from everything we've seen, the crime connection is certainly more likely correlation, not causation. Delinquents can get new powers and think they can go on crime sprees with it, as far as can be interpreted from the evidence at hand. Even if it does have side effects, every single medicine used for treatment has side effects, as serious as "increased risk for heart attack and stroke." Sure, it's underground and unknown. But to a young girl, lacking power in her world surrounded by those who do, whether it is for an altruistic purpose (I want to help others) or not (I wish I had cool powers), and Saten seems to be a little of both, certainly using this doesn't make her a monster.

3. The idea that it is somehow evil to involve friends in something that you are scared to alone is just ludicrous. People do things in groups constantly to overcome fears in all sorts of things; this doesn't create an inherent truth that if you are too scared to do it by yourself, it's something that is wrong. Her friends have minds of their own, too. They also know about Level Uppers and want to use them. Saten has overheard there may be side effects. We don't know if she says anything or not to the friends, but even if she doesn't, are all of them so naive as to think that an item that can increase psychic powers is as safe as eating candy? I doubt it.

Basically, it boils down to this: She's a young girl, who makes the choice to use an unknown substance that may increase powers and may have side effects, and she does it with her willing friends. A hint of immorality for seeking a "shortcut" to powers? Maybe. Some naivety for thinking that this will solve her problems without creating others? Probably. Some irresponsibility for using an unregulated substance, and doing it with friends? Definitely. But the incredibly offensive language I see describing her is simply ridiculous. "Cold-blooded." "Criminal." "Bitch." "Deserves what she got." Give me a break. People aren't perfect and some people here need to get off their high horses. Whatever she may be, Saten isn't a monster.
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Old 2009-12-06, 16:02   Link #67
velvet nightmare
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why do people keep saying LU users are for sure going to do some sort of criminal act before they go into a coma? saten and friends took it but they didn't participate in criminal activities so there goes a bunch of people's arguments.
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Old 2009-12-06, 16:02   Link #68
aliasxn
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You gotta feel for Saten... It's not just about having cool powers, being an ability user in Academy City is everything. It means you will go to a better school, live in better place, wear the best clothes and so on. It's your social standing. And the opposite is also true, being a normal person in a city full of incredible people who all have access to the things you can only dream of can be really disheartening. She knew the Level Upper was a crapshot, but a crapshot was still 1000 times better than what she had, which was and would always be 0 no mater how hard she tried.
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Old 2009-12-06, 16:33   Link #69
Cyrus17
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Didn't have time to read all the long posts so far (will read them later), but I want to say these things about Saten:
  • I'm very glad for Saten - she's finally got some esper powers. I hope she won't die and will be able to retain her ability in the future.

  • The motives behind Saten's decision to use Level Upper weren't clear enough and were actively discussed in previous threads. Well now we know for sure why she did it. Here are quotes from Saten herself:
    - But I've become an esper! (happily)
    Later:
    - But I couldn't throw it away.
    - I was just too scared to use it on my own.
    - I didn't know what happened to people who used Level Upper...
    - I didn't like being so powerless...
    - But I couldn't give up on my hopes...

  • Now, some people point out that Saten did wrong things and because of that doesn't deserve our love or even sympathy. My answer to them - I DON'T CARE. I still love Saten regardless of anything. She's too damn cute, both physically and mentally. Here, just look at her!


    She's not as brave as Kuroko and Mikoto, but she still steps in when needed (she's a hero, got it?). Also her sense of humor is sublime.

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Old 2009-12-06, 16:50   Link #70
Joe_fh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansalem View Post
1. Saten is a middle school girl! She's just a kid. People are talking about taking responsibility and ignoring childish dreams as though she is an independent adult. She's not.
Yes she is indeed a middle school girl. That again doesn't make the thing she did the right thing to do. Uiharu is also a middle school studen in a smilirat situation as I said earlier yet she acts in a completely different way.

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Originally Posted by Ansalem View Post
2. Level Uppers aren't the same as crack cocaine or whatever other drug. It's not a illicit substance widely known to the public for long periods of time. It's not banned by the government. It has a purpose to improve something; it's not just for getting high. Saten heard them say that they're not sure because they're investigating, but it may have side affects and be related to crime. Again, from everything we've seen, the crime connection is certainly more likely correlation, not causation. Delinquents can get new powers and think they can go on crime sprees with it, as far as can be interpreted from the evidence at hand. Even if it does have side effects, every single medicine used for treatment has side effects, as serious as "increased risk for heart attack and stroke." Sure, it's underground and unknown. But to a young girl, lacking power in her world surrounded by those who do, whether it is for an altruistic purpose (I want to help others) or not (I wish I had cool powers), and Saten seems to be a little of both, certainly using this doesn't make her a monster.
It's not the same but it's similar and has the potential to be way more dangerous.
Again Kuroko said it pretty clearly for Saten to understand what she meant. And I covered the ohter point just a while ago.
The medicines you're talking about usually are used only in cases where the health of the person using them is in real danger thus side effects are acceptable since the pros are a lot mroe that the cons in such a case. Pluse mdeicines are tested and official so you actually know everything about them before you use them giving you the chance to wigh over the pros and cons of using them.


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Originally Posted by Ansalem View Post
3. The idea that it is somehow evil to involve friends in something that you are scared to alone is just ludicrous. People do things in groups constantly to overcome fears in all sorts of things; this doesn't create an inherent truth that if you are too scared to do it by yourself, it's something that is wrong. Her friends have minds of their own, too. They also know about Level Uppers and want to use them. Saten has overheard there may be side effects. We don't know if she says anything or not to the friends, but even if she doesn't, are all of them so naive as to think that an item that can increase psychic powers is as safe as eating candy? I doubt it.
It's deffinately wrong to involve your friends in something dangerous yet we see that happen all the time in real life so I guess it sounds normal. That of course doens't make it ok. "Strength in numbers" - it's human nature (and not only human). Of course she would feel safer doing it with other people but again that doens't make it right.
About her friends being naive it might be true but they are getting the LU from a friend which probably makes them feel safer. That's also commont since you're not getting it form some ranodm stranger but from a firend tat you've known for quite some time. That's not an excuse as well but we are talking about Staen right now since she got them involved in the first place. I also think that if she said it was under investigation by Judjement and it could potentionally turn them into criminals they wouln't have used it. However we have no info about that

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Originally Posted by Ansalem View Post
Basically, it boils down to this: She's a young girl, who makes the choice to use an unknown substance that may increase powers and may have side effects, and she does it with her willing friends. A hint of immorality for seeking a "shortcut" to powers? Maybe. Some naivety for thinking that this will solve her problems without creating others? Probably. Some irresponsibility for using an unregulated substance, and doing it with friends? Definitely. But the incredibly offensive language I see describing her is simply ridiculous. "Cold-blooded." "Criminal." "Bitch." "Deserves what she got." Give me a break. People aren't perfect and some people here need to get off their high horses. Whatever she may be, Saten isn't a monster.
Cold blooded was used when Haak said I made it sound like Saten was a cold blooded monster" which isn't what I'm tring to do all. I'm just saying what she didn was wrong and whatever the reasons behind it it sill remains wrong.
Criminal was used in "criminal negligence" to ilustrate that not knowing you're doing something bad doesn't mean it's an excuse that you din't something bad. It served as an example.
"Bitch" was used in a quote from another froum so it's in no way connected ot us since no one here used something as extreme as that and I don't believe someone would in the first place.
I used "deserves what she got" because she really did. You can't do something like this and expect it to have no consequences for you. That's how a 5 year old that thinks the world would accept everything he does acts. I believe sending your firends into a coma when they were copletely ok just the other day because of negligence and selfishnes is by no means ok.

No one said it makes her a monster - I'm saying I can't feel sympathy for her in this situation and that her actions were neither smart nor justifiable. That's actually the point of all this. I could feel for her before she used the LU but not after. Uiharu still remains the best example of what Saten could have done instead of going down the spiral of self pitty.

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Originally Posted by velvet nightmare View Post
why do people keep saying LU users are for sure going to do some sort of criminal act before they go into a coma? saten and friends took it but they didn't participate in criminal activities so there goes a bunch of people's arguments.
Well it all depends on the people that use the LU in the end. The LU probably leads to the user commiting crimes was said by Kuroko since most people used the LU and Judjemnt knew about commited various crimes. That was before people starte going into a coma all over the place which proved that the LU doesn't lead to commiting crimes. Either way only we knew that until reecntly and Saten nknew only what Kuroko told her which was that "there's a tendecy that people who use it commit cirmes easlly".
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Old 2009-12-06, 16:55   Link #71
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Old 2009-12-06, 17:23   Link #72
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To support what many have said, LU is very similar to some experimental medication. Many people participate in trials for medications with some unknown side effects. The purpose, perhaps, can be to alleviate bothersome but not life threatening conditions, such as diarrhea or incontinence. A parallel can be drawn that like these patients, she lacked something the majourity of people around her have.

To place this in another context, perhaps it will be helpful to imagine that Saten has mental retardation (IQ<70). There is an experimental therapy that may increase IQ up to >70, thus lifting her above mental retardation as defined by DSM IV. The therapy may have extraneous side effects. (Parselus argued correctedly a long long time ago that all medications are toxins depending on dose and absorption.)

I am throwing out random thought situations that may or may not help people see the situation from another angle. However, like all moral and ethical arguement, many of the angles are correct, so perhaps there is no definite answer as to whether what Satan did was moral or ethical (any one up to researching ethical calculus? We don't need to be on Alpha Centuri to do this! :P)
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Old 2009-12-06, 17:24   Link #73
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Originally Posted by Joe_fh View Post
Yes she is indeed a middle school girl. That again doesn't make the thing she did the right thing to do. Uiharu is also a middle school studen in a smilirat situation as I said earlier yet she acts in a completely different way.
I didn't say that it makes any action right. I'm saying that children shouldn't be judged as though they are adults. Uiharu may be weak in her power (whatever it is), but there is a world of difference between level 0 and level 1. Even if there wasn't, Saten's actions are representative of what many normal people in the situation would do. Not every can be perfectly wholesome or free of mistakes.

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It's not the same but it's similar and has the potential to be way more dangerous.
Again Kuroko said it pretty clearly for Saten to understand what she meant. And I covered the ohter point just a while ago.
The medicines you're talking about usually are used only in cases where the health of the person using them is in real danger thus side effects are acceptable since the pros are a lot mroe that the cons in such a case. Pluse mdeicines are tested and official so you actually know everything about them before you use them giving you the chance to wigh over the pros and cons of using them.
Not all medicines are taken simply because health is in danger. The most obvious example is for male enhancement medicine, which as with other medicines has side effects. I'm not saying they are the same as legal medicine, but I'm debunking the argument that side effects means something is a bad substance. LU are a unique substance. They are not cancer medicine, and they are not heroin.
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Cold blooded was used when Haak said I made it sound like Saten was a cold blooded monster" which isn't what I'm tring to do all. I'm just saying what she didn was wrong and whatever the reasons behind it it sill remains wrong.
He may have brought up the term, but you said yes, she could be considered cold blooded.
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Criminal was used in "criminal negligence" to ilustrate that not knowing you're doing something bad doesn't mean it's an excuse that you didn't something bad. It served as an example.
Criminal negligence only exists when it is shown that reasonable person could have seen the consequences. Hearing rumors about side effects wouldn't provide a reasonable person with evidence that people go into comas form usage.
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"Bitch" was used in a quote from another froum so it's in no way connected ot us since no one here used something as extreme as that and I don't believe someone would in the first place.
If it's in no way connected to the person, they wouldn't have quoted it (even if he did say his opinion wasn't as harsh). He still used the quote to show his argument.
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I used "deserves what she got" because she really did. You can't do something like this and expect it to have no consequences for you. That's how a 5 year old that thinks the world would accept everything he does acts. I believe sending your firends into a coma when they were copletely ok just the other day because of negligence and selfishness is by no means ok.
Again, a reasonable person wouldn't expect even an unknown like UL to send all users into comas. You're using knowledge of the outcome, then saying it was obvious from the start.
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No one said it makes her a monster - I'm saying I can't feel sympathy for her in this situation and that her actions were neither smart nor justifiable. That's actually the point of all this. I could feel for her before she used the LU but not after. Uiharu still remains the best example of what Saten could have done instead of going down the spiral of self pitty.
I would say that any person reading this forum would see two sides of an argument: 1. Saten is a sympathetic character who made a mistake or 2. After this episode, Saten a horrible person who deserves no sympathy because of her callous actions. You may say you're not calling her a monster, but you (and others) certainly make her seem that way.
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Old 2009-12-06, 18:28   Link #74
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Originally Posted by Joe_fh View Post
hah that came out of nowhere especially since it was never my point at all. People used the "helping other people" part to justify what she did and I simply said this wasn't the reason she used the LU - she used it for herself.
Wierd how you got that idea after all the things I said.
Maybe it's your repeated use of the word "selfish". It carries strong negative connotations which, in her case, are undeserved. You can want something for yourself without being selfish. Or else everyone's selfish, which makes the word lose its meaning.


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And I don't see how that relates to what I said. I said she could achieve something not achieve greatness. Those are two different things.
You're saying she should try harder at school. Well, her and 90% of kids out there. Why would she try harder? Considering the goal "to have fun", how would that help?

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Yes we do because we know a lot of stuff Saten doens't. Come on if a police officer said "people who use this have a tendency to commit crime" You would go "yeah right"?
Yes, actually. Rock and roll? Video games?

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Of course as viewers we already know it depends what kind of preson used it and most of them did nothing bad. That again dosn't change the fact that Saten had no idea about this.
So? She can hold the same reasoning I did and conclude that Kuroko doesn't actually know if the LU causes crime. In fact, I rather doubt she even said so. But then, I don't speak Japanese.

Heck, Saten knows they've been stumped on the LU case - meaning, they know very little.
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I guess there isn't a global ban on using powers but what I meant was that generally we don't see people actually using them.
Why would we? Most people have pretty useless powers to start with - levitating a paper cup? Why not just pick it up, it's easier. But they do train at school. Mikoto isn't particularly shy about her power, either.

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So givng drugs with unkwon side effects to your firends is normal? Seriously?
If the friends have heard of the drug and want it? Yes, sharing is normal. Not necessarily good, but normal.

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As I just said in my previous post the oonly way a level upper can work is to mess with your brain which in terms can be really bad especially if you have no idea what it does exactly.
It's a sound file. How bad could it be?
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Meaning no harm isn't an excuse never was never will.
Actually, legally speaking, intent makes a big difference.


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Most probably yes. There were no evidence of people using the LU and not commiting crimes. The only people that were known to have used the LU were violent people that commited crimes. So basically with the knowledge the characters have it seems to be the logical conclusion
Sample bias is my conclusion. I guess if you read the frontpage of papers, you're the kind of guy who'll conclude everyone is either a chief of state or a public enemy?

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That actually is not an example of the situation at all.
The question here is if I met you on the street (you've never seem me before in your life) gave you a pill and said "use it and you'll become really smart" would you actually take it?
A pill, no. A song? Maybe. Except I'm not superstitious enough to believe in it. But Saten's got that interest in urban legends I lack.

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So you would consider the above example understandable an take the pill?
Yes, actually. If there's been rumors about said pill for a while, with some evidence that it works.

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Nope she knows what she was told by a person that works in the equivalent of the AC police - that people who use the LU have a tendency to commit crime and it has unkown side effects.
Just because the police said it doesn't mean it's true. Besides, she's also seen how little they know. All they've really got are wild guesses. And a seriously biased sample.

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Thus proving the point that people who use the LU commit crimes. No one knew about the ones that weren't spotted until they went into a coma.
No, but it's a natural assumption to make. Note that Kuroko hasn't talked about some wild personality change among users - because there hasn't been one.
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Old 2009-12-06, 18:49   Link #75
Joe_fh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansalem View Post
I didn't say that it makes any action right. I'm saying that children shouldn't be judged as though they are adults. Uiharu may be weak in her power (whatever it is), but there is a world of difference between level 0 and level 1. Even if there wasn't, Saten's actions are representative of what many normal people in the situation would do. Not every can be perfectly wholesome or free of mistakes.
That "world of difference" is by no means show in the anime at all. Uiharu works really hard in every singel thing she does whereas Saten doesn't do anything. In fact Uiharu should feel way more dpressed since she actually works with those powerfull ability users. She works really hard for years yet she doesn't improve at all and there's no result for her hard work. Her ability is practically usless at this point. Saten on the other hand never spent time trying since there was nothing for her to begin with. I believe it's much easier on you when you don't have something instead of working hard to make it good but failing every single time since in the second case you feel the same disapointment every time you fail and it the first you feel it just once (yes stronger but Saten was there for quite some time so she should have gotten over it by now)

Of course no one is perfect yet I believe many normal people wouldn't have done what Saten did if they were reasonable. This was the reason why I said what she did was stupid since it was unreasonable.

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Originally Posted by Ansalem View Post
Not all medicines are taken simply because health is in danger. The most obvious example is for male enhancement medicine, which as with other medicines has side effects. I'm not saying they are the same as legal medicine, but I'm debunking the argument that side effects means something is a bad substance. LU are a unique substance. They are not cancer medicine, and they are not heroin.
The fact that it's a unique substance make it even more dangerou.
Side effect don't mean something is bad. Unkwon side effects also don't mean something is bad -it means there might be really dangerous and bad side effects or something really harmless since you can't know what they actually are. Legal medicine always has know side effects so you can consider if you're going to use it or not. In fact even most side effects of drugs are known these days. And cancer medicine is an experimental medicine with indeed unkonw side effects but it's your only option if you want to live so wahtever the side effects dying is much worse.

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Originally Posted by Ansalem View Post
He may have brought up the term, but you said yes, she could be considered cold blooded.
Indeed I used it to illustrate that cold blooded could be used in this sense meaning he might have thought I was saying Saten was cold blooded when I said she was incoisiderate of her firennds. Sorry if you misunderstood me.

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Originally Posted by Ansalem View Post
Criminal negligence only exists when it is shown that reasonable person could have seen the consequences. Hearing rumors about side effects wouldn't provide a reasonable person with evidence that people go into comas form usage.
It wasn't just a rumor - it was something said by a person in Judjment which is an organization very similar to the Police. In a sense it was something said by a person that is a representative of the law and you should listen if you're a reasonable person and take what he/she said into conisderation.
It wouldn't provide you with clear evidence about people going into a coma but a reasonable person wouldn't consider something found on a hidden link in a web page, made by god know who and it tampers with your brain in who knows what ways, as even a option.

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Originally Posted by Ansalem View Post
Again, a reasonable person wouldn't expect even an unknown like UL to send all users into comas. You're using knowledge of the outcome, then saying it was obvious from the start.
As I just said above I'm only using what they knew prior to what happened in the end. It's obvious that something really dangerous might happen. Something that messes around with your brain can lead to many bad outcomes. Going into a coma is as dangerous as other things that might have happened as a result of this and they would have made sense. She had no idea what it does let alone how it does it. How does that come even close to reosnable?

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Originally Posted by Ansalem View Post
I would say that any person reading this forum would see two sides of an argument: 1. Saten is a sympathetic character who made a mistake or 2. After this episode, Saten a horrible person who deserves no sympathy because of her callous actions. You may say you're not calling her a monster, but you (and others) certainly make her seem that way.
And I'm for the third option you missed Saten is a sympathetic character that did something really dangerous selfish and inconsiderate thus deserves no sympathy for her actions, not in general. I don't see her as a monster but I can't get behind her for what she did either.
I wonder how I made her look like a monster but oh well. I can't really help it if you're seing it that way even if I don't mean it.

Sorry Anh_Minh I'll go through your point later cause i don't have time right now.
I'll edit this post when I do^^
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Maybe it's your repeated use of the word "selfish". It carries strong negative connotations which, in her case, are undeserved. You can want something for yourself without being selfish. Or else everyone's selfish, which makes the word lose its meaning.
I don't really use selfish that much, I prefer inconsiderate.
Yes but wanting somethining and obtaining it while not caring about the people around you makes the act selfish and incoderable thus fits withthat Saten did.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
You're saying she should try harder at school. Well, her and 90% of kids out there. Why would she try harder? Considering the goal "to have fun", how would that help?
That like sayiing why should people even bother going to school? They don't have fun there cause they actually need to sit there, listen to what the teachers say and learn. That's pretty flawed logic.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Yes, actually. Rock and roll? Video games?
Video games? Haven't you read all the articles of people doing something extremely stupid just because they saw something similar in a Video game.
And how can you even compare a game to something that gives you a super power in the first place?

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
So? She can hold the same reasoning I did and conclude that Kuroko doesn't actually know if the LU causes crime. In fact, I rather doubt she even said so. But then, I don't speak Japanese.
And it seems she did so in the end.
And what Kuroko said was very clear.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Heck, Saten knows they've been stumped on the LU case - meaning, they know very little.
Or they hit a dead end for example not knowing who distributes the LU . They could still know a lot about the LU but that doesn't guarantee they'll any closer to the person who created it
It could have been 1000 different things that could have been the reason the case wasn't really moving forward.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Why would we? Most people have pretty useless powers to start with - levitating a paper cup? Why not just pick it up, it's easier. But they do train at school. Mikoto isn't particularly shy about her power, either.
Soo going by that logic Saten risked her life to gain a usless power?
And Mikoto using her power around ends up with a security robot showing up in the end sayins she's disturbing public peace.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
If the friends have heard of the drug and want it? Yes, sharing is normal. Not necessarily good, but normal.
Yet you still have no idea what kind of effects that drug will have. I don't see it as something normal.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
It's a sound file. How bad could it be?
Again for anyone who was tested for an ability it should be clear that gaining a power is a result of tampering with the brain in some way. So the logical conclusion should be that it can be very bad.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Actually, legally speaking, intent makes a big difference.
Yes but here we're talking more about ignorance thus the Criminal negligence example. It's still punishable by law.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Sample bias is my conclusion. I guess if you read the frontpage of papers, you're the kind of guy who'll conclude everyone is either a chief of state or a public enemy?
That's not a good example. Here they are investigating something and the only people they can connect with the LU are people that commited crimes. From this it's safe to asume that the probability of this being true is very high since they didn't know anyone that used a LU and wasn't violent. That doen't make the statement true it just makes it higly probable. They work with what they have and at that point they had only this info.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
A pill, no. A song? Maybe. Except I'm not superstitious enough to believe in it. But Saten's got that interest in urban legends I lack.
Yes, actually. If there's been rumors about said pill for a while, with some evidence that it works.
Without knowing what might go wrong? So you're the kind of guy that will trust a complete stranger because of rumors?

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Just because the police said it doesn't mean it's true. Besides, she's also seen how little they know. All they've really got are wild guesses. And a seriously biased sample.
Of course it doen't mean it's true yet people trust police officers and the like becasue those people are more knowledgeable in their respected fields.
She had no way to know if those were wild guesses or not.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
No, but it's a natural assumption to make. Note that Kuroko hasn't talked about some wild personality change among users - because there hasn't been one.
Yes it was a natural assumption to make. There was no way to know about a personality change since before that point the people that commited the cirmes didn't have the power to go through with them.

Last edited by Joe_fh; 2009-12-06 at 21:31.
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Old 2009-12-06, 19:12   Link #76
Ansalem
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Originally Posted by Joe_fh View Post
That "world of difference" is by no means show in the anime at all. Uiharu works really hard in every singel thing she does whereas Saten doesn't do anything. In fact Uiharu should feel way more dpressed since she actually works with those powerfull ability users. She works really hard for years yet she doesn't improve at all and there's no result for her hard work. Her ability is practically usless at this point. Saten on the other hand never spent time trying since there was nothing for her to begin with. I believe it's much easier on you when you don't have something instead of working hard to make it good but failing every single time since in the second case you feel the same disapointment every time you fail and it the first you feel it just once (yes stronger but Saten was there for quite some time so she should have gotten over it by now)
Now you're getting completely from the point. I said she's a child. You replied with what I'll paraphrase as "But Uihara's just a child too! They're the same, but she would make a good choice!" Which they aren't. Which is funny because in my reply to your reply, you also say they are different. Also, what is your basis for determining that Saten never works at all? Just because we see Uihara at Judgement and we don't see Saten studying doesn't mean she doesn't study and work hard. Not everything that happens in a characters life is in the show. Anyway, my point is children are not judged by the standards of adults, and showing an example of a child with a better work ethic, or that is wise, still doesn't make Saten any less of a child.

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The fact that it's a unique substance make it even more dangerou.
No.

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It wasn't just a rumor - it was something said by a person in Judjment which is an organization very similar to the Police.
Kuroko is talking about how they don't really know but that there may be some side effects. They are discussing unknown facts and rumors. And even if they are judgments discussing it, nothing they say would make a reasonable person think everyone using this will fall into a coma. So my point stands.

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As I just said above I'm only using what they knew prior to what happened in the end. It's obvious that something really dangerous might happen. Something that messes around with your brain can lead to many bad outcomes. Going into a coma is as dangerous as other things that might have happened as a result of this and they would have made sense. She had no idea what it does let alone how it does it. How does that come even close to reosnable?
It is absolutely not "obvious that something really dangerous might happen." You are using your knowledge that Saten doesn't possess to make this judgment, whether you'd like to admit it or not. The whole basis of the psychic powers is that they do things to your head to make them manifest, so it would not be natural to assume that there must be dire effects from LU.


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And I'm for the third option you missed Saten is a sympathetic character that did something really dangerous selfish and inconsiderate thus deserves no sympathy for her actions, not in general. I don't see her as a monster but I can't get behind her for what she did either.
I wonder how I made her look like a monster but oh well. I can't really help it if you're seing it that way even if I don't mean it.
The only thing that you changed there was you say she's not a horrible person, it's just her actions that are horrible. In fact, you contradict yourself in the same sentence. Either she's sympathetic and deserves sympathy, or she's not.
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Old 2009-12-06, 19:12   Link #77
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Joe_fh View Post
It wasn't just a rumor - it was something said by a person in Judjment which is an organization very similar to the Police.
Assuming the police is staffed by middle and high schoolers treating it like a part-time job.
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Old 2009-12-06, 20:33   Link #78
Marcus H.
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Anti-skills are useless IMHO. Judgment should have been THE crime-fighting organization in Academy City. They make SWAT look humiliating, especially when
Spoiler for Index, last story arc:


Lol, we're filling this up with discussions of Ruiko-chan, but the Character Discussion Thread needs some <3 too.
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Old 2009-12-06, 22:00   Link #79
Joe_fh
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Now you're getting completely from the point. I said she's a child. You replied with what I'll paraphrase as "But Uihara's just a child too! They're the same, but she would make a good choice!" Which they aren't. Which is funny because in my reply to your reply, you also say they are different. Also, what is your basis for determining that Saten never works at all? Just because we see Uihara at Judgement and we don't see Saten studying doesn't mean she doesn't study and work hard. Not everything that happens in a characters life is in the show. Anyway, my point is children are not judged by the standards of adults, and showing an example of a child with a better work ethic, or that is wise, still doesn't make Saten any less of a child.
Yes I said they were in similar situations (in my opinion Uiharu had more of a reason do be depressed) yet they acted in different ways. Saten acted like an ignorant child and Uiharu acted more maturely. That of course doen't give us anything except showing more about the respective characters.
My basis on Saten not studying is that we see her going around town all the time,not paying attention in class, not understanding the topics they are discussing in school and the fact that she's depressed and lacks self confidence. You can't work hard if don't have the motivation to work hard and she doens't have it.
What's your basis on saying she studies hard?
I agree using Uiharu as example didn't do anything. Then again how does Saten being a child justifies her actions? You also have to consider she's living on her own so she should be at least a bit more mature and reasonable.

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Originally Posted by Ansalem View Post
No.
No doesn't quite cut it you know.

[QUOTE=Ansalem;2805839]
Kuroko is talking about how they don't really know but that there may be some side effects. They are discussing unknown facts and rumors. And even if they are judgments discussing it, nothing they say would make a reasonable person think everyone using this will fall into a coma. So my point stands.
Now you seem to be using knowledge of future events for your argument. It doesn't have to be a coma at all. Why are you bringin this up. Even if it was smoething really harmless in the end she would have still done something wrong that was potentialy very dangerous. Doing something like this and saying "it all worked out in the end" doesn't change the thing you did even one bit and if it was a wrong thing to do it still remains a wrong thing to do no matter the outcome. A reasonable person wouldn't go for something he has no idea about.

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Originally Posted by Ansalem View Post
It is absolutely not "obvious that something really dangerous might happen." You are using your knowledge that Saten doesn't possess to make this judgment, whether you'd like to admit it or not. The whole basis of the psychic powers is that they do things to your head to make them manifest, so it would not be natural to assume that there must be dire effects from LU.
I'm using only the things that Saten knows. I have no idea what you define as knowledge that she doesn't posses in this case.
So some random person using who knows what methods to do things to your head wouldn't make you think that something really dangerous might happen?
All that wouldn't make you think twice at all?

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Originally Posted by Ansalem View Post
The only thing that you changed there was you say she's not a horrible person, it's just her actions that are horrible. In fact, you contradict yourself in the same sentence. Either she's sympathetic and deserves sympathy, or she's not.
No I cahnged more than that. Either way how exactly do I contradict myself?
And I didn't say she did something horrible, I said she did something really dangerous selfish and inconsiderate.
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Old 2009-12-06, 22:11   Link #80
Ansalem
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Originally Posted by Joe_fh View Post
Then again how does Saten being a child justifies her actions? You also have to consider she's living on her own so she should be at least a bit more mature and reasonable.
Because children aren't held to the same standard. Because they are children. And you are judging her in such a harsh manner that it is ridiculous.

Quote:
No doesn't quite cut it you know.
Fine, no, being unique in NO WAY AT ALL makes something dangerous. It is a completely absurd argument, so I figured no would work.

Quote:
Now you seem to be using knowledge of future events for your argument. It doesn't have to be a coma at all. Why are you bringin this up. Even if it was smoething really harmless in the end she would have still done something wrong that was potentialy very dangerous. Doing something like this and saying "it all worked out in the end" doesn't change the thing you did even one bit and if it was a wrong thing to do it still remains a wrong thing to do no matter the outcome. A reasonable person wouldn't go for something he has no idea about.
I mentioned the coma because you brought it up. So I will rephrase. There is no way a reasonable person would know that very dire things would occur. Reasonable people attempt the unknown all the time. My point still stands. Again.

Quote:
I'm using only the things that Saten knows. I have no idea what you define as knowledge that she doesn't posses in this case.
You have specifically mentioned people falling into comas. You have seen countless people on screen going criminal using the powers of the LU. You've incorporated all of this into your argument. Saten only vaguely knows that there may be side effects and that LU may be using it for crime.

Quote:
No I cahnged more than that. Either way how exactly do I contradict myself?
And I didn't say she did something horrible, I said she did something really dangerous selfish and inconsiderate.
You said she was sympathetic and deserved no sympathy in the same sentence, hence the contradiction.

I'll finish by again mentioning that I don't think Saten is a saint. What she did was certainly a mistake. But she certainly is a sympathetic character.
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