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Old 2010-06-04, 09:41   Link #181
physics223
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
I doubt that. I see Jougasaki as a parody if not a satire of the raging machismo who's really an insecure kid down inside. Given Watashi's saving graces I don't think he's that extreme yet. He reminds me of what Sato of NHK no Yokoso before his spiral into madness. Yes this episode practically satirizes the 2D>3D issue that has been stereotypical of otakus as of late, however Watashi to me represents more the descent into this state than actually being "there." Jougasaki on the other hand oozes a parody of the misguided machismo of a guy who not only spurns 3D for 2D, but practically abuses the attraction he generates for the opposite sex and (consciously?) throws it away for Kaori as if to spite all the real women who make up his harem. To me this itself is the end-all state of the 2D complex, someone who is conscious of his complex and probably desires the 3D world of women to burn in the process.
Your assumption is that he has sex with Kaori, is that right? I'm more of the opinion that he uses 3D girls for his lusts, and Kaori for his love. But we shall see.

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Aside from their usual talks, the bug freak outs and the Mochiguma, I think this is the first concretely appreciable scene where Watashi actually does something really meaningful for her, and he does it in the form of her favorite character no less. As I said before, Red String of Fate, and their mutual relationship is a glowing contrast to his one-sided relationship with the doll and his limbo-at-best relationship with Hanuki. What will result from his relationship with his penpal of course remains to be seen.
That's my point. Didn't it seem to be a parasitic relation before, with Watashi dependent on Akashi? Things have changed much with that scene, because it shows Watashi and Akashi can persist mutually.
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Old 2010-06-04, 09:51   Link #182
MeoTwister5
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I wouldn't be surprised if Kaori is indeed one of those sex mannequin doll things they sell in seedy places (don't ask me how I know ). Jougasaki to me comes off as someone who sees 3D women as lower beings, not as tools for sex, but as things not worth his time nor his loins.
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Old 2010-06-04, 09:57   Link #183
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Aside from their usual talks, the bug freak outs and the Mochiguma, I think this is the first concretely appreciable scene where Watashi actually does something really meaningful for her, and he does it in the form of her favorite character no less.
And note of course, the only time he does something so directly for Akashi, he's in a _full body costume_ and thus in his mind, anonymous.

Chances are had he just been in the audience, he wouldn't have been able to do a thing to help her.
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Old 2010-06-04, 10:08   Link #184
physics223
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
I wouldn't be surprised if Kaori is indeed one of those sex mannequin doll things they sell in seedy places (don't ask me how I know ). Jougasaki to me comes off as someone who sees 3D women as lower beings, not as tools for sex, but as things not worth his time nor his loins.
Remember that in the episode, Ozu differentiates a 'Dutch wife' from a 'love doll.' A 'Dutch wife' is that which you pertain to be 'sex mannequin doll things in seedy places.' A 'love doll,' I believe, is much more exquisite and much more expensive. Remember Alodia? Do you recall that she has expensive small dolls known as dollfies? I believe that is what Kaori is, only magnified into a human-sized figure. I don't think it's something you have sex with, per se. I may be wrong, however.

@Quarkboy

Indeed. I think they make a great couple, though, although their roles would have to be somewhat reversed. Akashi is the headstrong one, while Watashi is the pensive, feminine figure.

For reference, I think Jougsaki has this kind of 'love doll:' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gZiJnukAZc. It's clearly not something you purchase 'in seedy places.'

Last edited by physics223; 2010-06-04 at 10:23.
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Old 2010-06-04, 11:19   Link #185
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Originally Posted by physics223 View Post
For reference, I think Jougsaki has this kind of 'love doll:' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gZiJnukAZc. It's clearly not something you purchase 'in seedy places.'
It's not a blow up doll, but a love doll is made to have sex with. Whether or not Jougasaki actually "consummates", that's still the point.
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Old 2010-06-04, 11:25   Link #186
physics223
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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
It's not a blow up doll, but a love doll is made to have sex with. Whether or not Jougasaki actually "consummates", that's still the point.
Oh, thank you for the correction.

I still doubt he does it with Kaori, though.
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Old 2010-06-04, 11:59   Link #187
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Originally Posted by physics223 View Post
I still doubt he does it with Kaori, though.
The way he was always trying to keep her clean and away from anything dirty makes me think he never did, but yeah we'll never know.

So i'm guess the next episode will focus on the third woman in the letters?
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Old 2010-06-04, 12:30   Link #188
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The one voicing Kaori was Watashi, right? He makes a pretty good female voice. I'm really impressed with Asanuma Shintaro, not just for this but all his work in The Tatami galaxy so far. Speaking that fast while keeping a near perfect elocution must not be easy.

Cheerio! Chesto! It's hard to tell if Jougasaki does it with Kaori or not. The only reason I can think of for him not doing it is if he's as fascinated as Watashi was and sees her as sacred, in which case the kiss we saw is as far as he goes.

Physics was right about Ozu's real appearance. He still seems pretty mischievous like that, though I think I prefer "Demon" Ozu.

Next episode should be about Keiko, but she still might not appear, as I couldn't spot her anywhere in the opening. Or she might turn out to be a dude (Higuchi himself? ).
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Old 2010-06-04, 12:57   Link #189
physics223
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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
The one voicing Kaori was Watashi, right? He makes a pretty good female voice. I'm really impressed with Asanuma Shintaro, not just for this but all his work in The Tatami galaxy so far. Speaking that fast while keeping a near perfect elocution must not be easy.
You are correct. I pointed that out in my post, but after the re-watch. I think it drives home the point that he's basically just talking to himself, that there was never a palpable Kaori to begin with. And yes, his voice is excellent.

Quote:
Cheerio! Chesto! It's hard to tell if Jougasaki does it with Kaori or not. The only reason I can think of for him not doing it is if he's as fascinated as Watashi was and sees her as sacred, in which case the kiss we saw is as far as he goes.
I really doubt he does it with Kaori, primarily because he is extremely meticulous about her physical appearance, even using perfume in the process. Most functional love dolls are fucked. Novels are not narrated to them; they are not perfumed; they are not dressed; they are just toys for sex.

But that is to be known later on.

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Physics was right about Ozu's real appearance. He still seems pretty mischievous like that, though I think I prefer "Demon" Ozu.
Thanks! I knew he was real and not just a figment of Watashi's imagination. We saw Ozu as that because we no longer saw the episode through the eyes of Watashi, simply put.

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Next episode should be about Keiko, but she still might not appear, as I couldn't spot her anywhere in the opening. Or she might turn out to be a dude (Higuchi himself? ).
Yes, that's what I'm assuming. Or this may just be another of Ozu's hijinx.
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Old 2010-06-04, 15:24   Link #190
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Originally Posted by physics223 View Post
I really doubt he does it with Kaori, primarily because he is extremely meticulous about her physical appearance, even using perfume in the process. Most functional love dolls are fucked. Novels are not narrated to them; they are not perfumed; they are not dressed; they are just toys for sex.
Maybe he uses perfume precisely because he bangs her. You get the idea. To me, it looks like Jougasaki loves Kaori as much, or even more, than he could love a real woman, which is why he treats her this way, so it makes sense for him to make love to her. Even Watashi wanted to do it.

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Yes, that's what I'm assuming. Or this may just be another of Ozu's hijinx.
I guess we can't really put it past Ozu... but I don't think it's him this time. And about the letters, I thought the photomontage of himself Watashi did was pretty funny, not just because it was bad and a classic trick to pull, but because he actually managed to get this buff earlier in the series.

And a little something I didn't see pointed out in your post: when Jougasaki visits Kaori for the last time at Watashi's house, he puts a pink perfume bottle on her lap. After he leaves, Watashi notices the bottle is now on the floor, but this time, it's blue. Probably the Tatami Galaxy at work again.
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Old 2010-06-04, 15:30   Link #191
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The montage the protagonist shoots on Jougasaki's life also shows him embracing Kaori as they fall into bed together, before it pans away and shows Jougasaki's enraged face. I think that strongly implies he's doing nasty stuff to her.
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Old 2010-06-04, 15:35   Link #192
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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
And a little something I didn't see pointed out in your post: when Jougasaki visits Kaori for the last time at Watashi's house, he puts a pink perfume bottle on her lap. After he leaves, Watashi notices the bottle is now on the floor, but this time, it's blue. Probably the Tatami Galaxy at work again.
I think the color change is just the usual odd coloring of the show, showing different lighting conditions.
I took the bottle on the floor as the first "sign" that Kaori was rebelling against going back to Jougasaki.
She rejects his present that he brought her when he promises to graduate and live together with her.

Of course it's probably just the bottle rolling off her lap, but I think Watashi interprets it as a rejection of Jougasaki's advances.
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Old 2010-06-04, 15:44   Link #193
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Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
I think the color change is just the usual odd coloring of the show, showing different lighting conditions.
I took the bottle on the floor as the first "sign" that Kaori was rebelling against going back to Jougasaki.
She rejects his present that he brought her when he promises to graduate and live together with her.

Of course it's probably just the bottle rolling off her lap, but I think Watashi interprets it as a rejection of Jougasaki's advances.
That's a great explanation. I still think the color of the bottle might not be completely insignificant, as the camera zoomed in on a similar looking bottle earlier in the episode when Watashi was at Jougasaki's house. Eh, I might just be looking too much into it.
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Old 2010-06-04, 19:25   Link #194
physics223
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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
Maybe he uses perfume precisely because he bangs her. You get the idea. To me, it looks like Jougasaki loves Kaori as much, or even more, than he could love a real woman, which is why he treats her this way, so it makes sense for him to make love to her. Even Watashi wanted to do it.
Noted.

Quote:
I guess we can't really put it past Ozu... but I don't think it's him this time. And about the letters, I thought the photomontage of himself Watashi did was pretty funny, not just because it was bad and a classic trick to pull, but because he actually managed to get this buff earlier in the series.
I think it's due to the fact that the reasons were different. Perhaps it is a subtle suggestion that Akashi is really important to Watashi?

Quote:
And a little something I didn't see pointed out in your post: when Jougasaki visits Kaori for the last time at Watashi's house, he puts a pink perfume bottle on her lap. After he leaves, Watashi notices the bottle is now on the floor, but this time, it's blue. Probably the Tatami Galaxy at work again.
I was more of the opinion it was just a change brought about by the shift in lighting, like Quarkboy. I may be wrong.

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Originally Posted by Serpit View Post
The montage the protagonist shoots on Jougasaki's life also shows him embracing Kaori as they fall into bed together, before it pans away and shows Jougasaki's enraged face. I think that strongly implies he's doing nasty stuff to her.
Good point, but one really still can't tell which really reigns over Jougasaki: his quirks, or his lust. But yes, it does quite imply he does the nasty with her.
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Old 2010-06-04, 20:09   Link #195
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Eh, I don't think we should be seeing Kaori-san being a doll as something so linear. "2D complex" or whatever it's called is not common enough for it to hit home to the rather broader audience this show is targeting, so it wouldn't make a dent in the minds of most people. I think it's better to regard Kaori-san as a metaphor for the archetype of the perfect Japanese woman, which is exactly what Watashi's fantasies about his future with her were depicting. Her appearance is even pretty Yamato Nadeshiko-like.

For example, unable to read the structure of the next episodes in advance, I didn't pay any heed to Kaori in my earlier analysis -- which means that, if Kaori was really a doll and not a metaphor for something else, it wouldn't have had any impact on me.

(Actually, my take on this is partly fueled by my being completely unable to relate to people with such a complex).

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While this remains to be impressive, I can't help but agree with what WanderingKnight has said as regards Watashi. While his moral resolution was praiseworthy the previous episode, an explication in this episode shows that it is fear that is hindering him. While he recognizes that the answer is love, love can only be realized when it is not stalled by fear.
Yeah, I think this episode more or less proved my earlier assumptions about this being more about Watashi's unhappiness and fear of making choices (and commitments) than about moral choices. At no point in this episode any suggestion of the ridiculousness of being in love with a doll is made, which means that the focus is somewhere else.

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Next episode should be about Keiko, but she still might not appear, as I couldn't spot her anywhere in the opening. Or she might turn out to be a dude (Higuchi himself?)
I think it's safe to assume it's going to be Ozu by now, though I wonder how they will make it fit with the structure of these two last episodes.
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Old 2010-06-05, 04:28   Link #196
physics223
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After re-watching the sixth episode (once more) I've come up with certain notations that contribute to the consistency of the hypothesis Quarkboy initiated and I developed, as well as an eye-opener in Watashi's game of love. I also attempted to review the importance of the opening animation of the series, and corresponded it with current occurrences. I hope you enjoy this post of mine. [It serves as a companion write-up to my most recent articles, and its central dogma is that Keiko does not exist, alongside imagery that suggest the depth of the show.]
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Old 2010-06-05, 11:59   Link #197
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Eh, I don't think we should be seeing Kaori-san being a doll as something so linear. "2D complex" or whatever it's called is not common enough for it to hit home to the rather broader audience this show is targeting, so it wouldn't make a dent in the minds of most people.
You should consider that this anime is made to appeal to a Japanese audience. Most of them, especially people watching anime, are aware of that term.
It even made the news quite often in the last years, often concerning the 'Akiba youth' and the case of people actually marrying 2D characters.
A friend of mine actually had a friend in a band, while she was in Japan, who had a slight case of 2D complex...

But I'm not quite sure wether I would actually stuff Kaori into that field, because 2D complex is more about established, made-up characters and less about loving inanimate objects.
I think it's a rather sad example of transferring ideals unto an inanimate object to avoid the dissappointment of reality.

And about the series in general....
I'm amazed how much people read into certain things I myself don't actually consider, maybe because I'm preoccupied by the novel's plot.
I'm quite interested in seeing how the anime turns out, considering that Yuasa made it vastly different from the source, only taking certain plot elements and basic characters...it's just a bit sad that many side characters I liked are given much less spotlight compared to the novel.

Ah well...I think in the end I will compare it to the novel and put it on my blog.
That could be fun ^^°
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Old 2010-06-05, 13:14   Link #198
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You should consider that this anime is made to appeal to a Japanese audience. Most of them, especially people watching anime, are aware of that term.
It even made the news quite often in the last years, often concerning the 'Akiba youth' and the case of people actually marrying 2D characters.
A friend of mine actually had a friend in a band, while she was in Japan, who had a slight case of 2D complex...
Yes, it is Japan, which is why I posted this:

Quote:
I think it's better to regard Kaori-san as a metaphor for the archetype of the perfect Japanese woman, which is exactly what Watashi's fantasies about his future with her were depicting. Her appearance is even pretty Yamato Nadeshiko-like.
The archetypal "perfect" Japanese woman does not differ in appearance or behavior from an inanimate doll with no will of her own:

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Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Also known as an ideal Japanese woman, it revolves around acting for the benefit of the family and following instructions or acting in the best interest of patriarchal authority figures. Virtues include: loyalty, domestic ability, wisdom, and humility.
Also, as I said before, there's no single mention of the ridiculousness of being in love with an inanimate object. Every character seems to think it's normal--which means the concept of "normal" is altered in the show.
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Last edited by WanderingKnight; 2010-06-05 at 13:26.
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Old 2010-06-05, 18:32   Link #199
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Yes, it is Japan, which is why I posted this:
The archetypal "perfect" Japanese woman does not differ in appearance or behavior from an inanimate doll with no will of her own:
I don't know if I would go for Kaori being a Yamato Nadeshiko...
It's quite an old concept and traditionally, while of course the society was patriarchal, the Japanese woman was much more 'independent' then what European Christians or American Puritans considered a 'perfect housewife'.
While Kaori would be loyal and humble, she shows neither wisdom nor domestic ability, she is mere decoration...a trophy if one might say so.

Quote:
Also, as I said before, there's no single mention of the ridiculousness of being in love with an inanimate object. Every character seems to think it's normal--which means the concept of "normal" is altered in the show.
I found it strange that they never showed Watashi having to deal with Kaori's existence. One episode she just popped up and was introduced into his 'harem' without further complications...but well, maybe that's what Yuasa wanted to do.

But remember that Watashi and Ozu used Kaori, or better the fact that Jougasaki has a love doll, against him as the climax of their movie project.
So people are obviously aware of the fact that his love is not normal...it's just that Watashi feels incapable of 'normal love' as well and I think that's why he is so ready to accept Kaori.
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Old 2010-06-11, 00:29   Link #200
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Spoiler for episode 8:
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