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Old 2010-06-29, 20:50   Link #281
Quarkboy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vendredi View Post
Very interesting catch with the colours. One particular interesting bit I realized after episode 10 was the Schrodinger's Cat reference at the beginning of the show - it's actually a very apt reference for what happens in the episode, as Watashi opens each tatami room "box" and finally observes it's quantum state, and comes to realize that it's better to have opened his own box and taken some alternative rather than be stuck forever in the quantum limbo between life and death.

I've collected a whole bunch of various snippets on other minor details and compiled them into a post of sorts, for the curious.
I think the reference to quantum physics is more one to the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics than any quantum state collapse interpretation.

Hence Schroedinger's cat is the wrong interpretation here. Take it from the translator who happens to have a Phd in theoretical physics .
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Old 2010-06-29, 23:13   Link #282
physics223
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I don't have a PhD in Theoretical Physics like you, but I did allude to the many-worlds interpretation that Schrodinger was instrumental in triggering through his paradox. Or was I wrong?
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Old 2010-06-30, 01:12   Link #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by physics223 View Post
I don't have a PhD in Theoretical Physics like you, but I did allude to the many-worlds interpretation that Schrodinger was instrumental in triggering through his paradox. Or was I wrong?
I was responding to vendredi:
Quote:
Very interesting catch with the colours. One particular interesting bit I realized after episode 10 was the Schrodinger's Cat reference at the beginning of the show - it's actually a very apt reference for what happens in the episode, as Watashi opens each tatami room "box" and finally observes it's quantum state, and comes to realize that it's better to have opened his own box and taken some alternative rather than be stuck forever in the quantum limbo between life and death.
Although that's interesting, I don't think that's the point of mentioning schroedinger, as it implies that the existences outside of his own are stuck in quantum amorphous states until he ends up observing the tatami rooms.

I don't believe that's what's going on in the show... I think Watashi thinks he's wandering though the parallel worlds that represent all the possible choices (i.e. Quantum measurement results), and that these parallel worlds are always there waiting to be explored. Remember it's never the observer that's in the quantum superposition, so you can't place Watashi as the "cat".

Perhaps I am being to scientific, but it really makes more sense just to chalk up the Quantum reference to be talking about many different universes arising from possible choices/measurements. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation
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Old 2010-06-30, 01:29   Link #284
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Huh. My understanding of the Cat Box is that somewhat related to Einstein's quote "God does not play dice", such that Schroedinger thought experiment was made as a challenge to the Copenhagen's interpretation of possibilities that the (unobserved) state of a system is essentially the superimposition of all possible states of this system, and that a specific state only becomes "the" state that is upon observation by the observer. From this, I understand Schroedinger's cat as a challenge to the logic that the cat is both dead and alive at the same time before observation and the cat is only either/or upon observation, a belief that is itself not logically sound, so that it must be that said cat already exists only as one of the different possibilities independent of observation.

Based on this understanding, my belief for Watashi is that he isn't the cat but the observer itself, it is HIS life that is the cat in question. It isn't that he doesn't want to open the box and see for himself, but more like he refuses to accept that the cat (his life) already has a state in the box (a direction in life) that is already in motion regardless of what he does from that point. In terms of MWI vs Copenhagen, Watashi is a person who adamantly refuses to believe that his life is already going in one of many directions it could possibly take (MWI, and of course the backbone of his many different adventures in the series) and desperately sticks to the belief that his life is STILL a mishmash of different possibilities that he can go into if he has a chance (Copenhagen).

Of course his life won't move to a specific direction unless he puts force into it, and there's still all of that thing about how the observer itself changes the nature and spin of a state etc etc but I'll stop now since I'm not a physicist and I'm having a nose bleed.
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Old 2010-06-30, 07:34   Link #285
physics223
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I finally figured out how Watashi will probably escape in the last episode: it will be through the moths.

That closing statement he made in the tenth episode wasn't merely an aside, it was foreshadowing. If these moths could transcend parallel worlds and travel through them, they also know a way of going out of them. I got it when I saw the image of the novel, and that's why it's my fearless forecast. I may be very wrong, though.
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Old 2010-07-01, 13:27   Link #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by physics223 View Post
I finally figured out how Watashi will probably escape in the last episode: it will be through the moths.

That closing statement he made in the tenth episode wasn't merely an aside, it was foreshadowing. If these moths could transcend parallel worlds and travel through them, they also know a way of going out of them. I got it when I saw the image of the novel, and that's why it's my fearless forecast. I may be very wrong, though.
Great call.
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Old 2010-07-01, 20:04   Link #287
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Spoiler for Episode 11:
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Old 2010-07-01, 20:20   Link #288
physics223
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Amazing, amazing, amazing, amazing show. I played truant just for this, and I don't regret it one bit. Seriously one of my most favorite anime now ... will cohere and convey my thoughts later.
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Old 2010-07-01, 20:24   Link #289
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Dropping in to throw my voice into the inevitable love-fest of reviews for this series. I found Youjo-han to be a nearly flawless show, and I hope it will eventually be cemented a position up there with stuff like Mushishi as anime that actually try - and succeed - to break the mold in a big way.
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Old 2010-07-01, 20:41   Link #290
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Two words: absolutely amazing.

From start to finish, this was a great show. It makes me sad to think that I'll no longer wake up early on Thursday mornings and watch a new episode. The last time I can remember feeling this touched over an anime's ending was PLANETES. A love that transcends space and time indeed.

I think the thing that really got me was the reality he wound up in was the one where he had no initial connections to any of these people. This time, he has to forge those connections himself and he'll be all the stronger for it.
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Old 2010-07-01, 23:32   Link #291
physics223
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Episode 11 [FINAL] Analyses and Reflections

I am no longer uncertain about my favorite anime this 2010. This has got to be it. The episode was nearly flawless, the ending was intricately woven, and it was one of the most satisfying series I have seen in a long time. It was just coruscating with brilliance, and I loved every single second of it.
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Old 2010-07-02, 03:19   Link #292
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Guh. I'm in a bind. My top two picks for the anime of 2010 are neck-and-neck for entirely different reasons and they barely have any intersections any in sort of objective category. Thank god I don't care about having a single series to put in such regard because I've even put 3 for a tied spot in a previous year (2007 or 2008 I think).

Looks like I have 2 series I am obligated to advertise now before Animesuki Awards 2010 is made, and into perpetua, and in order for Tatami Galaxy and Cross Game to win I have to sell them for entirely different categories.

I'll post something better after I rewatch it.

Edit - Then again, how would one classify this show exactly? As a show that defies genre conventions and most usual classifications it's going to be hard to suggest this show to people with rigid criteria. I guess the most appropriate would be when the person in question asks for something "different", and this show is obviously as different as the the typical anime series gets.

Last edited by MeoTwister5; 2010-07-02 at 04:08.
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Old 2010-07-02, 04:36   Link #293
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Why isn't the female lead considered a raven haired maiden?

Is she supposed to be somewhat plain? As a somewhat curt engineering student, does this make her less than desirable? She doesn't dress like the rest? Female engineering students are rare.

Happiness is dangling right in front of you refers to the toy which refers to the female lead.

It's obvious from the start that she has feelings for him since she clings to the male lead when attacked by a moth.

Ozu is a demon who occupies the male leads self created hells. I think he serves to jar the male lead out of his rut. To get him to experience life and consider alternatives to what is considered the norm. Ozu is not so evil.

The male lead rescues Ozu at the end.

The nail that sticks out is always pounded down. Maybe in the end happiness is being the nail that sticks out? At least a little?

In Ground Hog day, you keep reliving your life until you get it right. Maybe that's what's going on here.

I'm waiting for an English dub cause I couldn't keep up with the amount and speed of the dialog.
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Old 2010-07-02, 05:07   Link #294
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Ok where to begin.

First off I think it's rather brilliant that the final episode began exactly where ep10 ended, going so far as to start using the ED. Furthermore the scenes before with the giant robot destroying humanitu cemented my conclusion that indeed it was Watashi who rejected society and retreated into his 4.5 Tatami Galaxy, rather than his previous defense mechanisms of denial by putting the blame on society shunning him. By acknowledging it and that he really DOES want to find a way back into society, he takes his first giant step towards... actually I'm at a loss for words at a proper description. Rehabilitation? Reintegration? Whatever the correct term may be, I can't deny that he finally decides to acknowledge his mistakes.

The get-go of the episode decided to trace just how everyone in the cast was connected in some way, going so far as to trace it in all the possible universes we were presented with. It managed to to really show that all of them were connected in very straight and direct manners, and not simply by some loose and circumstantial social threads. This reminded me of that line from Persona 4, that we're all trapped in a maze of relationships, and it rings so very true for Watashi: despite his attempts to control his social networks and to control who he meets and who he avoids, everyone single one of those people he met has affected his life in ways he might never fully realize. In the end, there's really no such things as being a "complete shut-in".

Watashi's acknowledgment that Ozu was his only real friend I found to be his next huge step in the finale because it's clearly true. Again, no matter how you think about Ozu, there is again no denying he is one of the 2 people who understand Watasho the most. More than that, he practiced what he preached to Watashi, evidenced by his most important line in the entire series: You need to be true to yourself. Ozu lived this saying to the letter. Even if his plans were sometimes less than noble and some crashed and burned quite literally, he did what he believed in. More than that, to some extent rather than simply tell Watashi to live life to its fullest his actions were also meant to show how it was to actually "live." That's why to me, in certain respects, he didn't just live the "Ozu life" for himself and for his girlfriend, he lived it as a possible example to Watashi as well.

The next big step was his fantasies of life. Plain as day, most of them might be so-so and everyday to those of us living in real life, but as one who essentially deprived himself of such pleasures and enjoyments these mundane events may simply be paradise to him. And with that, he eliminated his narrow minded focus for the rose-colored life and began to imagine the simple things in life that would have made him happy. Sure the rose-colored life as an abstract concept that would be impossible to reach may have given him pleasure as an ideal, but then again real life can also give him similar, if not exactly equal. With his new desires, he decides to seek them out.

And before despair could take him again as he bashes through the walls, he looks around for one final slither of hope to get him out of his prison. And what does he find?



And there it is.

I think this is probably the single most important, and arguably the best, scene of the entire series. For the first time in his life he finally admits to himself that he indeed fell for her the moment the fortress-like scowl Akashi showed to everyone else melted on his arrival. Call it a secret smile of sorts, and she shows it only for him. So when he finally sees the Mochiguman dangling in his endless Tatami Galaxy and rightfully sees the endless Mochigumans hanging in every room in his prison, he finally realizes that beyond all the common things in his many lives and through all the sufferings, mishaps and resets, there was one thing that was always there to remind him of the only first step he ever needed to take: the Mochiguman.

With that he knows how he will leave his self-imposed exile. Now, more than ever, he has a reason to. As he says so himself, 100 steps or 1000 steps it doesn't really matter, because none of those will ever begin if the first is never taken. The cliche has probably never felt so new and so needed until that moment.

As such it does his entire ordeal complete justice that he is returned to the very first time he had his chance, at the very first time fate decided to give him 10 resets to get his life into perspective. It all puts us back to that bridge where all of this began, when he actually had that Mochiguman to give back to Akashi. Now of course he has that one thing he lacked back then: courage without regrets. So he runs towards the mob, along the while going through most of his various forms, as if to say that every single of those experiences made him into the man he was at that moment in time (A brilliant artistic choice by the way).

The rest of Watashi-Akashi, as he says himself, he will not bother us with. Suffice to say that watching the two of them walk side by side and the role reversal of Watashi and Ozu, complete with that damn face, was a sight of pure satisfaction on my part.

And at the end of the series I'm usually obligated to give a numerical scoring, but for this series I won't, and I usually don't give one for series that blow me away. I didn't give one to Spice and Wolf, Clannad, Cross Game and a few others over the 15 years I actively watched anime. Suffice to say that as Watashi's life begins anew, I again lament how shows life this will never get the exposure it so rightfully deserves.

But after a while I guess I won't really care, because I had a blast along the entire ride, and really what could be more important than that?
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Old 2010-07-02, 05:13   Link #295
physics223
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Thank you Quarkboy for subbing this show with olev and care.
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Old 2010-07-02, 05:18   Link #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
As such it does his entire ordeal complete justice that he is returned to the very first time he had his chance, at the very first time fate decided to give him 10 resets to get his life into perspective. It all puts us back to that bridge where all of this began, when he actually had that Mochiguman to give back to Akashi. Now of course he has that one thing he lacked back then: courage without regrets. So he runs towards the mob, along the while going through most of his various forms, as if to say that every single of those experiences made him into the man he was at that moment in time (A brilliant artistic choice by the way).
It's not the same "timeline" as in episode 1. It's the same timeline as episode 10-11, the one where he hardly set foot outside of his room for 2 years.

Proof is that Akashi remembers loosing the Mochiguma in the laundry while in the first episode it's shown that Watashi picks it up from the ground. Also Akashi doesn't remember his promise to take her to Neko Ramen (exactly), so it's clearly a different timeline than episode 1.

The timeline of episodes 10-11 are the "true" timeline, the one where Watashi chose no circle at all and generally got to know no one at all. Instead, all the events he described happened without him, and it's only through his adventure exploring his other possible words that he comes to understand the history of the other characters.
That's why Ozu and Higuchi have no idea who he is when he shows up at the bridge.

The bridge scene, in fact, happened in every single alternate universe... Although usually Watashi rewound prior to Gozan so it wasn't depicted ( the one exception was the Honwaka episode, where Higuchi talked about Ozu having broken his leg).
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Old 2010-07-02, 08:56   Link #297
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Brilliant ending to a brilliant show.

When Watashi wished to go back in time again, I thought it would just end with another reset and him getting everything right this time, which would have been disappointing. Instead, there was no easy way out for him in this episode, he had to get his life back by himself. And as we had already guessed ages ago, it required him to finally be true to himself and muster the courage to grab that damn Mochiguman (props to physics223 for finding out the significance of the moths last week). The scenes that followed were great.

As satisfying as Watashi giving the Mochiguman to Akashi after all this time was, the best scene of the episode for me had to be Watashi saving Ozu. For the first time in the series, he acknowledged Ozu as his best friend, and embraced the black thread of fate. LOVED the role reversal at the end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Watashi's acknowledgment that Ozu was his only real friend I found to be his next huge step in the finale because it's clearly true. Again, no matter how you think about Ozu, there is again no denying he is one of the 2 people who understand Watasho the most. More than that, he practiced what he preached to Watashi, evidenced by his most important line in the entire series: You need to be true to yourself. Ozu lived this saying to the letter. Even if his plans were sometimes less than noble and some crashed and burned quite literally, he did what he believed in. More than that, to some extent rather than simply tell Watashi to live life to its fullest his actions were also meant to show how it was to actually "live." That's why to me, in certain respects, he didn't just live the "Ozu life" for himself and for his girlfriend, he lived it as a possible example to Watashi as well.
Well said. This is exactly why Ozu is my favorite character in the series, and I'm glad Watashi eventually listened to his advices. Maybe he shouldn't try to be too much like Ozu though, as we've seen, it can bring you a lot of troubles
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Old 2010-07-02, 09:06   Link #298
physics223
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I didn't actually figure it out last week. I figured it roughly three days before the episode came out. I just happened to look at the cover art for the novel and re-watched the tenth episode and just connected them together. Yuasa's not very fond of bad object placement in shows, so I just realized that it was going to be his way out.

I'll probably take a good hard look at my most favorite anime, but even after hours and the giddiness of finishing the series was gone, I can't help but think about the time I spent speculating about the anime, the fact that I cried during the final episode, the fact that everything about the anime was so consistently good, the depth of its characters, the intellectual stimulation I got, and the godlike ending of the series. I can't help but conclude it is my favorite series especially because of the amount of time I spent re-watching it. Because as much as I loved Honey and Clover it didn't stimulate my thought the way this series did, and that's probably what made it surpass that perennial favorite of mine.

I actually played truant for part of the day just to enjoy the episode properly, and wrote the article during lectures. Much respect must be given to a transcendent anime series that never failed to deliver.
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Old 2010-07-02, 22:04   Link #299
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It is terrible that good things always have an end. I'm not into discovering the secrets or explanation of this show transitions but I loved every episode I watched. Loved the OP and ED, the voices, the originality and art style. Definately, one of the best things of 2010.

That director knows his bussiness.
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Old 2010-07-02, 23:30   Link #300
physics223
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So I went through the episode again and I noticed something with Akashi. She still has four Mochiguman with her, but doesn't seem too disturbed about it when they went to visit Ozu. In light of the seventh episode, don't you think Watashi is the fifth Mochiguma?

The screenshot and a short write-up can be found here.

Oh, and among other things, I also think I discovered why the fortune teller helped Watashi specifically. She was there when he actually fell head over heels for her the very first time. Picture is still with the link.

EDIT2: It was just angles. *sigh*

Last edited by physics223; 2010-07-03 at 01:14.
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