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Old 2010-05-29, 09:21   Link #161
Quarkboy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by physics223 View Post
I admit I did not get that. That's extremely subtle. I didn't even connect that with the Honwaka episode. I thought it was Kaori-san because Ozu took Kaori. I thought Jougasaki left the cake for him because Watashi beat Jougasaki in the drinking match. I may have assumed wrongly.

Sorry.
Think about the first line Jougasaki says to Watashi in episode 6: "Why aren't you at your post?" and you should be able to figure it out.
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Old 2010-05-29, 10:28   Link #162
physics223
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I found 'Akashi' in the sixth episode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quarkboy
Think about the first line Jougasaki says to Watashi in episode 6: "Why aren't you at your post?" and you should be able to figure it out.
The more I think about it, the more I get it. Post ... I see.
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Old 2010-05-30, 22:53   Link #163
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Episode 6 was excellent. I laughed really loudly at the realization of what exactly was that strange cowboy in the opening. Brilliant, just brilliant.
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Old 2010-05-30, 23:26   Link #164
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What surprised me most was that he managed to tame his cowboy rather easily for someone who's supposed to be completely sloshed, which says a lot about his character when lesser men would have roped it in at the end.
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Old 2010-05-31, 00:49   Link #165
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
What surprised me most was that he managed to tame his cowboy rather easily for someone who's supposed to be completely sloshed, which says a lot about his character when lesser men would have roped it in at the end.
Watashi mostly stopped drinking at the end of the drinking contest and sobered up (a bit) while Hanuki was still dragging him around to different bars.

That's how I interpret him being so much more lucid than her at the time. Or maybe he wasn't kidding when he said he had high tolerance.
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Old 2010-05-31, 03:59   Link #166
physics223
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I don't think he was kidding when he said he had high tolerance. I remember him still drinking some more after going to other bars.

I'm also sorry I've broken my promise not to construct posts on Yojo-han but I simply could not stop from disagreeing against somebody who proposed that Ozu and Watashi were the same. I've posited certain scenes (had to re-watch the first three episodes again) that support my exegesis, but it's difficult to defend anything against a postmodern argument. My 'opponent' argues that Ozu is just another personality of Watashi, just as Akashi is another figment of his.

I vehemently disagree.

I mean, sure, Watashi is a pitiable person. He is pessimistic and quite indecisive at times. But I absolutely refuse to label him delusional or to paint the anime series as some sort of a dream world. It seems too escapist, and it doesn't give Watashi any respect.
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Old 2010-05-31, 19:00   Link #167
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What surprised me most was that he managed to tame his cowboy rather easily for someone who's supposed to be completely sloshed, which says a lot about his character when lesser men would have roped it in at the end.
Why do you say "lesser men"?

Genuinely curious why you say that. In the end, he lost everything -- he lost Hanuki, he lost his pen-pal, and he lost his doll (pretty good metaphor that one). Why would you label it as a "victory"?
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Old 2010-05-31, 19:12   Link #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Why do you say "lesser men"?

Genuinely curious why you say that. In the end, he lost everything -- he lost Hanuki, he lost his pen-pal, and he lost his doll (pretty good metaphor that one). Why would you label it as a "victory"?
That doesn't really change the nature of the moral decision itself. I think we can agree that the proper (but requiring greater willpower) decision is not to take advantage of a drunk woman. A "lesser" man would have given in to the temptation. Whatever incidental plot details occur a result doesn't necessarily change that aspect of the decision or what it says about his character.
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Old 2010-05-31, 20:47   Link #169
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That doesn't really change the nature of the moral decision itself. I think we can agree that the proper (but requiring greater willpower) decision is not to take advantage of a drunk woman. A "lesser" man would have given in to the temptation. Whatever incidental plot details occur a result doesn't necessarily change that aspect of the decision or what it says about his character.
My point exactly, loss of inhibitions aside. One would think that given his situation of an already impending emotional and social train wreck he would easily succumb to a chance at immediate gratification but he didn't.

He could have easily abandoned her to go to the tower and he could have easily taken advantage of her being drunk. He had two situation where he could have chosen his own needs rather than that of the friend who's completely off her rocker but he chose to stay and maintain control of his loins. He didn't exactly "lose" Hanuki, losing the doll was probably for the best, and his pen-pal already made a rather unfair proposition of cutting off all ties if he didn't choose to meet her (considering he was sort of enraptured to a girl he's never even seen or met).
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Old 2010-06-01, 07:27   Link #170
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This, my friends, is the character development we've been looking for all along. Instead of escaping into emotion and ecstasy, he thought about what his actions would affect, and this is in contrast to the Watashi that broke hearts merely because he was heartbroken or the reactive and caustic Watashi that anathematized Jougasaki.

He has changed.
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Old 2010-06-01, 09:19   Link #171
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I've been wondering who the cowboy character in the OP was going to be. Never did i expect that.
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Old 2010-06-01, 12:54   Link #172
physics223
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Originally Posted by Shiroth View Post
I've been wondering who the cowboy character in the OP was going to be. Never did i expect that.
If you look at the OP carefully, Watashi switches into Johnny. Likewise, Ozu switches into a certain character that looks more human. I bet it's how Ozu really looks in real life. I think the smirk absolutely gives him away.
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Old 2010-06-01, 16:59   Link #173
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Quote:
I think we can agree that the proper (but requiring greater willpower) decision is not to take advantage of a drunk woman.
Well, I strongly disagree with that. If you've ever been drunk, you'd realize that whenever people talk about being so drunk they couldn't remember anything that happened that night, they're usually lying. If they had had sex, it would've been because Hanuki had wanted to have sex with him all along. There are several clues throughout the whole episode of that. He didn't force her into his apartment, she invited him to hers, fully knowledgeable of what can happen in those circumstances. If anything, it was Watashi who was being toyed with, not Hanuki.

The whole episode drew heavily on Freudian psychoanalysis. If you go by that, then Watashi's indecisiveness and reluctance to give in to his innermost desires (by either going with his pen-pal or choosing to have sex with Hanuki), deluding himself, instead, that he's chasing for some remote, unreal ideal of "what makes a man", only made him more miserable in the end -- which is why he wants to rewind the clock.

Quote:
This, my friends, is the character development we've been looking for all along. Instead of escaping into emotion and ecstasy, he thought about what his actions would affect, and this is in contrast to the Watashi that broke hearts merely because he was heartbroken or the reactive and caustic Watashi that anathematized Jougasaki.
I'm sorry, but as I posted earlier, I strongly disagree with that notion. The whole series is playing with Watashi's constant state of unhappiness, which is so strong he inevitably ends up wishing for time to rewind in every episode. In this particular episode, the unhappiness was signaled by Watashi's lack of decisiveness. Whatever path he chose, he had something to lose -- either the love of his pen-pal or a one night stand with Hanuki. Instead of realizing that there was no correct path, and embracing his choice, whatever it was, as the correct one, he simply refused to choose, thus giving in to the unhappiness of the uncertainty over missed possibilities.

I believe you're making a moral judgment that has no bearing to the story -- at no point is either of the choices presented as the "correct" one, and Watashi's final decision not to do anything is certainly not the correct one, for he ends up wishing to go back in time once more.
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Old 2010-06-01, 23:15   Link #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight
I believe you're making a moral judgment that has no bearing to the story -- at no point is either of the choices presented as the "correct" one, and Watashi's final decision not to do anything is certainly not the correct one, for he ends up wishing to go back in time once more.
I don't think the presented choice of which girl to pursue is tied to the moral choice of having a one night stand with Hanuki or not. The latter was just incidental to the path he decided to pursue in that particular episode. When he asks to rewind time, I highly doubt it was with the intention of deciding to let "Johnny" out instead this time.

And while I don't doubt what you say about alcohol, I think it's fairly well accepted that decision making, at least, is impaired under the influence of alcohol. I have a hard time believing he would have been less miserable in the long run even if he'd given into instant gratification.
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Old 2010-06-01, 23:27   Link #175
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I don't think the presented choice of which girl to pursue is tied to the moral choice of having a one night stand with Hanuki or not.
Well, that was exactly my point, which I guess it got diluted by the focus people put on that individual event as a positive thing.

Quote:
The latter was just incidental to the path he decided to pursue in that particular episode. When he asks to rewind time, I highly doubt it was with the intention of deciding to let "Johnny" out instead this time.
I don't know the choices he would have taken if he had gone back in time. But it's important to understand that his unhappiness over not choosing is far stronger than the moral choice he makes. If he had been "a real man", he should have had no desire to go back in time. You made your choice, suck it up. If he desires to go back in time, it's because he regrets his choice, somehow, deep in himself. He might even regret his entire foolishness for putting himself in the position of having to choose between two girls (because, really, he fabricates the whole dilemma himself).

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And while I don't doubt what you say about alcohol, I think it's fairly well accepted that decision making, at least, is impaired under the influence of alcohol.
Yes, you're not the brightest star in the room if you're drunk, but it's important to understand that at no point of the whole scene Watashi has any control over the situation. It's Hanuki the one who's controlling the whole thing--and usually when one thinks about "taking advantage of drunk women" the common chauvinistic imagery of passed-out half-vomiting girls forcibly taken to some random motel or love hotel comes to mind; which was certainly not what was shown in the episode.

I guess what I mean is, there's no message in the episode that "making love to drunk girls makes you a very bad person" or "not manly" or "have a small penis" or whatever. Or at least it's not the point. Watashi is still unhappy, even with his decision not to zip down.

Or maybe it's because I would have definitely zipped down, heh. I guess that makes me a horrible person or something vOv
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Old 2010-06-03, 14:16   Link #176
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I honestly can't believe how amazing this show it.

Episode Seven makes it clear just how far Watashi has come, and how far he has to go. It's pretty obvious that he's pinpointed "love" as being the answer, after having tried different types of self-actualization. On the other hand, the three different loves he cultivates are entirely shallow and ultimately meaningless. (As always, Akashi waits quietly in the wings)

Also of note. We get to see Ozu's true face! What a difference from how Watashi normally sees him.
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Old 2010-06-04, 05:25   Link #177
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I thought that this episode was the 2D complex sublimed. This episode was one huge example of the 2D complex and its complicated appreciation for the inanimate. While this remains to be impressive, I can't help but agree with what WanderingKnight has said as regards Watashi. While his moral resolution was praiseworthy the previous episode, an explication in this episode shows that it is fear that is hindering him. While he recognizes that the answer is love, love can only be realized when it is not stalled by fear.

[Further episode impressions and analysis can be found in the link above.]
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Old 2010-06-04, 08:00   Link #178
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Holy shit so Kaori is the very same blow-up doll that Jougasaki sleeps with? I didn't pick it up the previous episode because I never really assumed Jougasaki would let his doll be over at someone else' place. All I needed to see was the wall-o-titties and I already knew who this guy was.

Speaking of Jougasaki, he and Watashi actually have some similarities as far as Kaori is concerned. He likely has a a fear similar to Watashi, probably of intimacy. While there's probably no denying Jougasaki's egocentric personality, despite the fact that he has an entire harem of women ready to lap him up he somehow finds it better to be with a doll than with real women. This egocentric approach makes it look like he's acting out his inner fears by being a narcissistic douchebag yet retreating into his own world with Kaori and his wall-o-titties.

As for Watashi, well those scenes after Jougasaki puts her in his apartment border on fantasy. I can't blame him though, having been in similar shoes but not in such an extreme, since the pull of fantasy over reality will always be strong especially when life sucks ass. I won't hold it against him yet when you consider his... uh... elopement, though that might just be his complete neurologic breakdown. Right now I don't want to believe yet that his deep and underlying problems would really get THAT extreme.

But even with a doll his deep-seated fears of intimacy still get the better of him. It actually might have done him good for episode 7 because he hasn't gone completely out of tune with reality the way Jougasaki seems to have. Still the fact that such issues arise even with a doll shows just how rooted his problems are. Thank god for Jougasaki that he didn't thrust his deeply burning passions into her?

The biggest surprise of the episode might very well be Ozu's comment to Watashi at the pedestrian crossing: "Be more honest with yourself." Whether or not you have a high or low opinion of Ozu, you can't deny the fact that it's he and Akashi who seem to understand Watashi the most, probably even more so than Watashi himself.

Also I just realized that the old woman adds 1000 yen to her price after each rewind.

Best scene has to be the Mochiguma. Finally something with Akashi after the last 2 episodes. Adorable but most of all deeply meaningful. I'm thoroughly convinced the Mochiguma will be his Chekhov's Gun when the time is right.
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Old 2010-06-04, 08:52   Link #179
physics223
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Holy shit so Kaori is the very same blow-up doll that Jougasaki sleeps with? I didn't pick it up the previous episode because I never really assumed Jougasaki would let his doll be over at someone else' place. All I needed to see was the wall-o-titties and I already knew who this guy was.
I'm not sure if Jougasaki really does the act with her, but yes, he does sleep with her.

Quote:
Speaking of Jougasaki, he and Watashi actually have some similarities as far as Kaori is concerned. He likely has a a fear similar to Watashi, probably of intimacy. While there's probably no denying Jougasaki's egocentric personality, despite the fact that he has an entire harem of women ready to lap him up he somehow finds it better to be with a doll than with real women. This egocentric approach makes it look like he's acting out his inner fears by being a narcissistic douchebag yet retreating into his own world with Kaori and his wall-o-titties.
The entire episode was the 2D complex taken to the extreme, realized, and sublimated. It is not merely intimacy that Jougasaki or Watashi fear: they both also have a fear of commitment. In love, one must be hurt and also hurt (whether intentionally or not). But love has the element of selfishness in it: there can be no love without possession.

Quote:
As for Watashi, well those scenes after Jougasaki puts her in his apartment border on fantasy. I can't blame him though, having been in similar shoes but not in such an extreme, since the pull of fantasy over reality will always be strong especially when life sucks ass. I won't hold it against him yet when you consider his... uh... elopement, though that might just be his complete neurologic breakdown. Right now I don't want to believe yet that his deep and underlying problems would really get THAT extreme.
This is, again, the 2D complex taken to the extreme and sublimed.

Quote:
But even with a doll his deep-seated fears of intimacy still get the better of him. It actually might have done him good for episode 7 because he hasn't gone completely out of tune with reality the way Jougasaki seems to have. Still the fact that such issues arise even with a doll shows just how rooted his problems are. Thank god for Jougasaki that he didn't thrust his deeply burning passions into her?
No, I don't even think Jougasaki does the act with the doll per se. Note that the lines that Ozu repeats in regard to the love being a sophisticated one I think applies to Jougasaki as well. The purest love is a love where there is no sex involved. I thought Ozu laid that out clearly.

Quote:
The biggest surprise of the episode might very well be Ozu's comment to Watashi at the pedestrian crossing: "Be more honest with yourself." Whether or not you have a high or low opinion of Ozu, you can't deny the fact that it's he and Akashi who seem to understand Watashi the most, probably even more so than Watashi himself.
I can't believe I deleted that statement. I had it on 'bold' in my post but then removed it. I think I'll work that into my post again. I also noticed that, and this is hand-in-hand with the revelation that Ozu is really a human being, as I argued.

Thank you.

Quote:
Also I just realized that the old woman adds 1000 yen to her price after each rewind.

Best scene has to be the Mochiguma. Finally something with Akashi after the last 2 episodes. Adorable but most of all deeply meaningful. I'm thoroughly convinced the Mochiguma will be his Chekhov's Gun when the time is right.
I've also argued that a few weeks ago. It's only now, however, where a reciprocation can be seen: it is not merely Akashi who helps Watashi, but Watashi who also helps Akashi. It was only alluded to in the previous episodes, but their existence, as I've said, is not parasitic, but mutualistic in nature.
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Old 2010-06-04, 09:28   Link #180
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The entire episode was the 2D complex taken to the extreme, realized, and sublimated. It is not merely intimacy that Jougasaki or Watashi fear: they both also have a fear of commitment. In love, one must be hurt and also hurt (whether intentionally or not). But love has the element of selfishness in it: there can be no love without possession.
I know. I wrote a paper on this in one of my Philo classes.

Quote:
This is, again, the 2D complex taken to the extreme and sublimed.

No, I don't even think Jougasaki does the act with the doll per se. Note that the lines that Ozu repeats in regard to the love being a sophisticated one I think applies to Jougasaki as well. The purest love is a love where there is no sex involved. I thought Ozu laid that out clearly.
I doubt that. I see Jougasaki as a parody if not a satire of the raging machismo who's really an insecure kid down inside. Given Watashi's saving graces I don't think he's that extreme yet. He reminds me of what Sato of NHK no Yokoso before his spiral into madness. Yes this episode practically satirizes the 2D>3D issue that has been stereotypical of otakus as of late, however Watashi to me represents more the descent into this state than actually being "there." Jougasaki on the other hand oozes a parody of the misguided machismo of a guy who not only spurns 3D for 2D, but practically abuses the attraction he generates for the opposite sex and (consciously?) throws it away for Kaori as if to spite all the real women who make up his harem. To me this itself is the end-all state of the 2D complex, someone who is conscious of his complex and probably desires the 3D world of women to burn in the process.

I wouldn't actually be surprised if this might be is unconscious revenge.

Quote:
I've also argued that a few weeks ago. It's only now, however, where a reciprocation can be seen: it is not merely Akashi who helps Watashi, but Watashi who also helps Akashi. It was only alluded to in the previous episodes, but their existence, as I've said, is not parasitic, but mutualistic in nature.
Aside from their usual talks, the bug freak outs and the Mochiguma, I think this is the first concretely appreciable scene where Watashi actually does something really meaningful for her, and he does it in the form of her favorite character no less. As I said before, Red String of Fate, and their mutual relationship is a glowing contrast to his one-sided relationship with the doll and his limbo-at-best relationship with Hanuki. What will result from his relationship with his penpal of course remains to be seen.
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