To Aru Kagaku no Railgun - Episode 11 Discussion / Poll

[MartianMage]

Originally Posted by tsunade666

As for accelerator his battle experience aren't only limited to those misaka because its clearly seen that his always in the center of attack by those thugs.

And those unaccounted thugs are meant to count for something too? After killing 9000 lvl3 misakas armed with guns and he's still such a nub to get his ass handed to him by Touma I don't think the other thugs who were foolish enough to get on his bad side matters at all.

Originally Posted by tsunade666

And also don't runt on the plot of the story to show that the character to win. Its just show that you hate the character. And a one sided conversation about a person that wouldn't even agree to begin with.

And most of the opponents of touma are stronger than him and has ability. And its not all the time that he attacks straight forward its just pinch time. Like hell will you think twice if your dying. Its kinda crazy to think when your getting squashed already. And if you compare it to battle agains ellis where kazakiri is getting squashed then how about when his getting buried in the underground railway. Even in dire situation at least he remembers what index said.

Sure I won't deny that I don't like Touma at all but you know what? One of the main reasons I don't like him is because he's too preachy for someone who only wins through plot wins. The point still stands that Touma has very little combat experience at all. He's nowhere close to dying when he suddenly blocks ellis' punch with his magic/ability nulling hand(forgot which hand) he just did it out of the blue without any thought that the force will crush him and fortunately for him because of index's weird science he actually stopped it. Even with a magic nulling hand blocking a punch from a huge magical golem doesn't show battle experience.

[tsunade666]

No those thugs are useless that doesn't even count as battle experience. Accelerator is like a lab rat that's been continuously monitored by the scientist. The way it is....... their is no one that can actually hurt him.... I think the first one is touma and the second is spoiler. spoiler. spoiler. As the story goes their isn't even 5 or 6 people that actually hurt him yet.

As for touma.... yap I hate his long speech. But I like his battle style and his strategist and as the story goes I just like him more minus the speech.

But kazakiri is getting smashed their. Would you think up of something is someone is dying in front of you? Touma doesn't even think when he agrees to help someone.

Back to mikoto. She doesn't have any real battle experience the only one she ever fought up with that deals treat to her is touma. That's why she compare kiyama and touma that kiyama doesn't have any insane ability to null her electric shock point blank range.

Let's face it kiyama and mikoto doesn't really have any REAL LIFE COMBAT EXPERIENCE.
whee you get hit or damage or bleeds. Kiyama is a noob on the ability and misaka studies daily on the curriculum seeking new heights on her power. Maybe that's why she level up to level 5.

[MartianMage]

Originally Posted by tsunade666

No those thugs are useless that doesn't even count as battle experience. Accelerator is like a lab rat that's been continuously monitored by the scientist. The way it is....... their is no one that can actually hurt him.... I think the first one is touma and the second is spoiler. spoiler. spoiler. As the story goes their isn't even 5 or 6 people that actually hurt him yet.

As for touma.... yap I hate his long speech. But I like his battle style and his strategist and as the story goes I just like him more minus the speech.

But kazakiri is getting smashed their. Would you think up of something is someone is dying in front of you? Touma doesn't even think when he agrees to help someone.

Back to mikoto. She doesn't have any real battle experience the only one she ever fought up with that deals treat to her is touma. That's why she compare kiyama and touma that kiyama doesn't have any insane ability to null her electric shock point blank range.

Let's face it kiyama and mikoto doesn't really have any REAL LIFE COMBAT EXPERIENCE.
whee you get hit or damage or bleeds. Kiyama is a noob on the ability and misaka studies daily on the curriculum seeking new heights on her power. Maybe that's why she level up to level 5.

Yes, this is what we can deduce so far from the anime. Misaka and Kiyama have very little to no battle experience at all so I just find it ridiculous to claim that Kiyama lost because of battle experience.

As for Kazakiri. I dunno man but pushing her seems to be more logical than trying to block Ellis's punch. In most shows where someone is shown saving someone from getting hit by a car, they push away the person that's about to get hit, not try to catch the car.

[Joe_fh]

Well overall the episode was really nice. Still am I the only one that thinksthey are really rushing things the last few episodes? I mean really why did the changed the pace so much?

The only part I wasn't happy about with this episode was the Kiyama vs Misaka fight. For one it was really really short. You know now I understand why removing the third Touma scene was a bad idea. Forget that it was good just because ToumaxMisaka interactions are always great and it connects Index to Railgun - we lost the opporunity to see that Misaka can be really scared in a fight. With that gone and with how short they made this scene we gtt the ipression that Misaka can't lose. I mean really they didn't show any doubt in her mind and they didn't even show her analyze the powers Kiyama was using. We didn't get to see almost any of that analytic ability you guys are talking about. Because of that for me the scene kind of lacked any form of suspence considering how much more powerful Kiyama was compared to Misaka.

Oh and let's not forget that the first time somone went into a coma because f the LU Kiyama got her first ability so I don't believe she's actually a noob when it comes to using them especially considering the fact she usese a couple of abilities to fight against Misaka and render her ranged electro atacks usless. That takes a lot of skill. Plus the can thing- she used a lot and that lv 4 dude could only make one and that's something. Besides taking on a whole squad of antiskill withou getting a scratch shows just how good she is. Yes if she was serious Misaka had no chance that's why during the battle scene Misaka acting like she was on top and not even looking like she was in a troublesome situation was really wierd.

Originally Posted by Kuroi Sabato

As for Kazakiri. I dunno man but pushing her seems to be more logical than trying to block Ellis's punch. In most shows where someone is shown saving someone from getting hit by a car, they push away the person that's about to get hit, not try to catch the car.

When you can stop the car without getting hurt why bother pushing the person

[Ansalem]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Sabato

As for Kazakiri. I dunno man but pushing her seems to be more logical than trying to block Ellis's punch. In most shows where someone is shown saving someone from getting hit by a car, they push away the person that's about to get hit, not try to catch the car.

That's because in most shows the car isn't created using a magical force that you can dispel when you come into contact. I don't know why so much is being discussed about Touma in any case. He has an ability to counter any other ability, so if you want to consider that winning by plot, fine. It's the way the show is written.

In any case, Misaka almost certainly has more experience using her ability than Kiyama, considering that Kiyama has only recently attained powers via the Level Upper scheme. Whether any of that you do or don't want to call "battle experience" I don't really care. Presumably Kiyama isn't actually trying to kill Misaka, hence the explanations for "why doesn't she teleport something into her body" or whatever more lethal thing people are coming up with. Even if she does, Kiyama has who-knows-how-many abilities, so maybe she just didn't think of doing x thing with them. I'd also have to disagree that just because a person is intelligent, they would of course check the body to make sure their opponent is defeated. She thinks she's outsmarted her with the can behind her. It's overconfidence, not "they cheezed the plot zomg." I don't really think it's contrived, but again feel free to think that.

[BlueDo]

How about this:
Forget combat, think of mastery of power.
Biribiri is obviously better at using her power and applying it.

You seem to think that Kiyama has an overwhelming advantage, while we've never encountered a multi-skill before.
It's true that Kuroko can kill Misaka with teleportation, but the hierarchy pretty much reigns supreme in this series.

As for Accelerator vs. Touma, you're oversimplifying stuff. There are many areas of so-called "experience."
Accelerator has been learning to use his power the entire project.
Touma's streetfighting and Imagine Breaker are the perfect counter for his defensive ability.
Even though Accelertor is so much faster, Touma still gets quite a few hits in by predicting his moves.
The only plothax about the plot is that Accelerator keeps going close range for the fight, as that's always worked with him before.

In the case where Touma stops Ellis' punch, it is weird science.
However, Touma "knew" the punch would be stopped, so he used IB on it.
More like inconsistence if you ask me.

[MartianMage]

Originally Posted by Ansalem

That's because in most shows the car isn't created using a magical force that you can dispel when you come into contact. I don't know why so much is being discussed about Touma in any case. He has an ability to counter any other ability, so if you want to consider that winning by plot, fine. It's the way the show is written.

In any case, Misaka almost certainly has more experience using her ability than Kiyama, considering that Kiyama has only recently attained powers via the Level Upper scheme. Whether any of that you do or don't want to call "battle experience" I don't really care. Presumably Kiyama isn't actually trying to kill Misaka, hence the explanations for "why doesn't she teleport something into her body" or whatever more lethal thing people are coming up with. Even if she does, Kiyama has who-knows-how-many abilities, so maybe she just didn't think of doing x thing with them. I'd have to disagree that an intelligent person would of course check the body to make sure their opponent is defeated. She thinks she's outsmarted her with the can behind her. It's overconfidence, not "they cheezed the plot zomg." I don't really think it's contrived, but again feel free to think that.

Dispelling the magical force that created Ellis does not equate to negating the force behind the punch. It's the same reason why Touma has to dodge the things Accelerator throws at him cause catching it is supposed to be lethal. I'm calling it a plot win because wow just for some weird reason his ability nulling hand suddenly applied weird science in order for Touma to win.

More experience in using abilities is not battle experience.

@BlueDo

What you're saying about mastery of ability might be(actually it's most probably) true but that's not the point here. The point of discussion is combat experience and I am saying that claims that Misaka, Accelerator, and Touma has considerable battle experience is BS. Accelerator's pathetic loss to Touma proves that, after all that 9000 Misakas he killed, he hasn't any battle experience at all.

These characters are just a bunch of brats. While Accelerator might be seeking fights due to his bad attitude that doesn't mean that Touma and Misaka does too so I don't know why some of you are claiming that these three have battle experience.

[Ansalem]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Sabato

Dispelling the magical force that created Ellis does not equate to negating the force behind the punch. It's the same reason why Touma has to dodge the things Accelerator throws at him cause catching it is supposed to be lethal. I'm calling it a plot win because wow just for some weird reason his ability nulling hand suddenly applied weird science in order for Touma to win.

It makes as much sense as being able to make fire disappear or anything else that he does. If I had to make some sort of difference, I suppose I would say it's because the magic creates the golem, whereas Accelerator is flinging things not created with power. But then again, I don't really care that much, since over-thinking a show like Toaru doesn't help make it that enjoyable.

More experience in using abilities is not battle experience.

And?

[BlueDo]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Sabato

What you're saying about mastery of ability might be(actually it's most probably) true but that's not the point here. The point of discussion is combat experience and I am saying that claims that Misaka, Accelerator, and Touma has considerable battle experience is BS. Accelerator's pathetic loss to Touma proves that, after all that 9000 Misakas he killed, he hasn't any battle experience at all.

Okay then.
We were interpretting the things differently.
Misaka and Accelerator have high mastery over their ability.
Touma has streetfighting.
Misaka and Accelerator have little to no knowledge of martial art.

When most of us said "combat," we meant general strength in a battle.
I.e. ability, fighting style, speed, power, etc...

[MartianMage]

Originally Posted by Ansalem

And?

That's exactly it. Nothing to add more or am I missing a secret hidden message here?

@BlueDo

Maybe you're interpreting it that way but from the start of this discussion I'm very sure that we're talking about actual combat experience not skill mastery. Consider how Kiyama lost in context of this argument. Do you think that we're arguing here that Kiyama lost because she doesn't have enough knowledge of her skills? I don't think so.

@Joe_fh

The problem with that scene is that Touma shouldn't be able to dispel the force behind the punch. While it is magic that binded Ellis, the materials used to create Ellis is non magical.

[Joe_fh]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Sabato

That's exactly it. Nothing to add more or am I missing a secret hidden message here?

And in this case would mean "So what" I guess.
And why are you discussing Index in a Railgun episode 11 thread in the first place?

Well Touma's ability is wired you know. There's a whole thread about it. It's the same as coutering Misaka's blade. It should cut him before he dispeled it but it didn't. So in this case it was the same. You're overtinking something that is there to be enjoyed the way it is.

[MartianMage]

Originally Posted by Joe_fh

And in this case would mean "So what" I guess.
And why are you discussing Index in a Railgun episode 11 thread in the first place?

I don't think a "so what" reply even addresses the argument at hand.

Well that's cause someone brought up Touma and Accelerator into the discussion and I ended up refuting the claims.

Originally Posted by Joe_fh

Well Touma's ability is wired you know. There's a whole thread about it. It's the same as coutering Misaka's blade. It should cut him before he dispeled it but it didn't. So in this case it was the same. You're overtinking something that is there to be enjoyed the way it is.

Yes, it's weird and just changes specifications to give him a plot win. Unfortunately that is something that I do not enjoy thus my dislike to Touma. Kiyama being careless in order for Misaka to win that I can accept but giving Touma suddenly having weird specs on his power to win that I cannot accept.

And don't get me wrong. I enjoyed this episode but I just don't agree to the claims that Misaka, a middle school girl, has any significant battle experience at this point of the story.

[BlueDo]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Sabato

Maybe you're interpreting it that way but from the start of this discussion I'm very sure that we're talking about actual combat experience not skill mastery. Consider how Kiyama lost in context of this argument. Do you think that we're arguing here that Kiyama lost because she doesn't have enough knowledge of her skills? I don't think so.

Did we?
I'm not sure by what other people meant. Misaka didn't even beat Kiyama with martial arts.
But Biribiri does have more control over her ability. I'd rather not discuss whether that affects the outcome or not.

Originally Posted by Kuroi Sabato

The problem with that scene is that Touma shouldn't be able to dispel the force behind the punch. While it is magic that binded Ellis, the materials used to create Ellis is non magical.

Yes, that's a good point.
Let's assume the mechanics is wrong.
The author thought that using IB would stop the punch.
Touma "knew" it would stop too, according to the faulty logic of the indexverse.
It works out because it looks cool.

Otherwise, the author could've just let Touma push Hyouka away like you suggested, and make him touch the golem later.
It's the fault of the author rather than the character being full of himself.

[Ansalem]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Sabato

That's exactly it. Nothing to add more or am I missing a secret hidden message here?

I just mean, what's your point? The discussion began with the idea that Misaka just won from "plot." Then all this stuff about combat experience or not came in, which I don't really think is that relevant. Okay, Kiyama is a smart lady and has uber powers. They fight some. Kiyama isn't trying to murder Misaka, just get her out of the way. Misaka's not worthless, so she manages to hang in there a little bit. Kiyama does the can explosion move. Misaka manages to block it, and Kiyama, being overconfident (precisely because she has crazy powers) assumes she's down for the count, allowing Misaka to get her with the electric hug.

Sure, if Kiyama really wants to gut Misaka or whatever, with all of her abilities, she could do the teleport crap into her body move or probably countless other things. But she's not. So I don't see the part where it's so blatantly obvious that Kiyama could only have lost by them cheezing the plot, thus my "and" what does it matter if more experience using a power isn't more "combat experience"?

[karuroso]

One question,hope someone anwser please, when the Tree diagram was destroyed?I forgot when that happened.

[MartianMage]

Originally Posted by Ansalem

I just mean, what's your point? The discussion began with the idea that Misaka just won from "plot." Then all this stuff about combat experience or not came in, which I don't really think is that relevant. Okay, Kiyama is a smart lady and has uber powers. They fight some. Kiyama isn't trying to murder Misaka, just get her out of the way. Misaka's not worthless, so she manages to hang in there a little bit. Kiyama does the can explosion move. Misaka manages to block it, and Kiyama, being overconfident (precisely because she has crazy powers) assumes she's down for the count, allowing Misaka to get her with the electric hug.

Sure, if Kiyama really wants to gut Misaka or whatever, with all of her abilities, she could do the teleport crap into her body move or probably countless other things. But she's not. So I don't see the part where it's so blatantly obvious that Kiyama could only have lost by them cheezing the plot, thus my "and" what does it matter if more experience using a power isn't more "combat experience"?

The point is Misaka having any significant battle experience over Kiyama is not true. I'm simply refuting a claim that Misaka won because of battle experience.

@Karuroso

Following both Index and Railgun anime. Nope it's still there.

@BlueDo

I'm not limiting battle experience solely to martial arts. When we say battle experience that means tactics, skills, and awareness of the situation and environment and I don't think Kiyama was at a huge disadvantage from those areas when she fought Misaka.

As for Touma's understanding of his powers. I don't think that's it really because he was smart enough to deduce that trying to catch the things Accelerator was throwing at him is a no-no. The author just seems to be inconsistent at what Touma can stop. =/

[Ansalem]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Sabato

The point is Misaka having any significant battle experience over Kiyama is not true. I'm simply refuting a claim that Misaka won because of battle experience.

Okay, well, I'm confused because I didn't argue that she did, and you replied to my post with that.

[BlueDo]

Originally Posted by karuroso

One question,hope someone anwser please, when the Tree diagram was destroyed?I forgot when that happened.

I think around now, a few days before this or maybe after.
Kiyama would've been able to ask for permission long before it happened, though.

[Ansalem]

Originally Posted by karuroso

One question,hope someone anwser please, when the Tree diagram was destroyed?I forgot when that happened.

Spoiler for Index show:

Apparently, it's blown up by Index when Johann's Pen is possessing her and she shoots that energy beam into the air and blows up a satellite. So the first story arc of Index.

[MartianMage]

Originally Posted by Ansalem

Spoiler for Index show:

Apparently, it's blown up by Index when Johann's Pen is possessing her and she shoots that energy beam into the air and blows up a satellite. So the first story arc of Index.

Spoiler for Index show:

it got blew up? lol already forgot what happened exactly that arc