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Old 2009-12-19, 15:42   Link #61
Benoit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo
The Wii's game catalogue sucks, in no way does it come anywhere near close to the previous market leaders in the PS2, PSX and SNES.
You are confusing two separate things. The quality of a console's game catalogue is not directly related to how it compares to other consoles'.
Quote:
No I agree with you, the problem is that like with the N64 and the NGC Nintendo is pretty much the only company making good games for the Wii..
You have a point with the N64, but not with the other two. There were plenty of good third-party games for the GameCube, and there are plenty for the Wii. The fact that there is also a lot of shovelware doesn't change this.
Quote:
If the Wii sells as much as the Ps2 (which I don't think it will tbh) the 360 and ps3 are going to be a lot closer to the Wii than the Xbox and GC were. I think they are both over the 30 million mark already... and will probably end up around 60-40 million..
Microsoft Xbox 360: 31 million (as of August 27, 2009)
Sony PlayStation 3: 27 million (as of September 30, 2009)
Nintendo Wii: 56.14 million (as of September 30, 2009)
Quote:
Originally Posted by roriconfan
But hey, at least they didn't use utter lies like the "other company" in order to sell.
No, but they used other underhanded tactics instead. Especially during the NES era. But everyone conveniently forgets that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz
You have one or two diamonds in the rough but if you look at percentage of crap to quality you'd be lucky to see anything above 1 percent.
Just like Westlo, you're confusing quality with quantity.
Quote:
I dare you to list the "good" games
Here are 10 of them to get you started. No ports, not cross-platform, not from Nintendo.

Final Fantasy Fables: Chocobo's Dungeon
House of the Dead: Overkill
Little King's Story
Rune Factory: Frontier
Shiren the Wanderer 3
Sonic & the Secret Rings
Tales of Graces
Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World
Tatsunoko VS Capcom
Zack & Wiki: Quest for Barbaros' Treasure
Quote:
I really think in the end Sega has constantly shot itself in the foot, first developing online play and not following through with it
Not following through with it? Have you been living under a rock? There were plenty of online games.
Quote:
having ridiculous memory units
You mean the Visual Memory units? Those were awesome.
Quote:
Not to mention the constant craptastic sonic games.... I want to seriously butcher the ceo who came up with fucking werewolf.
ohnoes a wereworf! What's wrong with it, really? Sonic Unleashed is a good game, and I think you should get over the fiasco that was Sonic 2006 already.
Quote:
the platforms they support at the moment are complete garbage at least for quality control
You should read up on the licensing requirements of the three players sometime. It's not about quality at all. In fact, they may not even judge the quality of games, as that's anti-competitive.
Quote:
whereas wii has no where near the appeal the ps2 did
You know, maybe it has less of an appeal to you because the Wii is targeted at a different demographic. Shocking, I know.
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Old 2009-12-19, 16:04   Link #62
Nosauz
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I sense a lot of vitriol, its ok that I disagree with you, actually the point I'm making is that games are what are important to a platform, and when everybody and their nanny is making wii games with crappy wii mote controls then there is a problem. Also game play for sonic unleashed was terrible, you have the juxtaposition of crap with near genius and what do you get? CRAP. The werewolf levels were terrible and basically destroyed what sonic is about, not every fucking game has to be a brawler, if a game is good then it's good but hey don't let you love of a game blind you. Hey your comment of quality over quantity, buddy it's about quality and quantity of that quality, if your system has a total of 20 great games a year then your sitting on a pretty shitty system. I can tell you of the countless people who have bought wii's that just sit there as they game on other consoles? Why because the lack of third party support, and quality third party support. SHOCK, I mean seriously a console is an investment, for most people plopping down two hundred dollars is not something you do every day. PS2 does have better numbers than the wii I don't see my statement being wrong, also it did demolish all it's opponents including the xbox and gamecube.
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Old 2009-12-19, 19:22   Link #63
Benoit
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Please pay more attention to your grammar. And use some PARAGRAPHS for crying out loud. People reading your post will thank you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz
when everybody and their nanny is making wii games with crappy wii mote controls then there is a problem
Not really. If you think otherwise, please explain why.
Quote:
Also game play for sonic unleashed was terrible, you have the juxtaposition of crap with near genius and what do you get? CRAP. The werewolf levels were terrible and basically destroyed what sonic is about, not every fucking game has to be a brawler, if a game is good then it's good but hey don't let you love of a game blind you.
It's easy to say something is crap. You don't ever explain why. Sonic Unleashed is a good game. The day time stages had decent design, the boost system worked well, and the occasional switch to 2D gameplay was refreshing. The werehog stages were slowed paced and not as exciting, sure, but they weren't horrible. It allowed for platforming where the day time stages were basically just about going fast.
Quote:
if your system has a total of 20 great games a year then your sitting on a pretty shitty system
Not at all. Not everyone goes through several games a month.
Quote:
I can tell you of the countless people who have bought wii's that just sit there as they game on other consoles? Why because the lack of third party support, and quality third party support.
Yes, those people exist, but either their favourite genre is underrepresented on Wii (eg RPGs), or they aren't really looking for games they might like.
Quote:
PS2 does have better numbers than the wii I don't see my statement being wrong
Except the PS2 has been out for many years already. So far the Wii is leading by a large margin, and it's only been out for a couple years.
Quote:
also it did demolish all it's opponents including the xbox and gamecube
Demolish is too strong a word. In no way was it equivalent to the 32-bit wars, where the original PlayStation was king. A game console that sells more than 10 million is in no way 'demolished'.
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Old 2009-12-19, 19:49   Link #64
Westlo
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Iwata himself said Nintendo have dropped the ball with the Wii this year in Japan, do you disagree with the head of Nintendo Benoit? Obviously NSMB Wii has saved it for now but that comment was before that.

Quote:
Except the PS2 has been out for many years already. So far the Wii is leading by a large margin, and it's only been out for a couple years.
138mil vs 25mil & 20mil

61mil vs 36mil & 30mil (going by NPD and Mediacreate (JPN) threads they would be around this level + europe and worldwide)

You do the math Even if the Wii outsells the Ps2 it's not going to have as large a market share as the Ps2 did because the 360 and Ps3 are going to vastly outsell the Xbox and Gamecube. I can see the ps3 hitting 50 million and the 360 should be ahead of that.. (so 3rd place this gen outsells 2nd and 3rd last lol) and who knows what it could do if Natal takes off.. which I don't think it will.

It's silly to say the Wii is doing better in regards to market share than the Ps2 did, it's funny how for all the new fans the Wii has attracted (omg grandad plays wii sports bowling!) it's not really doing "that" much better than the ps2 did.

Quote:
It took several years before it got many good games. You making it sound like it came out and immediately had good games it wasn't till 5+ years before the "good games" library became noticeable.
Even if what you said was true the Wii has just about f all big 3rd party games attached to it right now in development, whereas the PS2 at the equivalent time had loads of top games on the way. Why would Ubisoft lose money on Wii games when they can sell 2 million copies of Assassin's Creed 2 in a week on the HD systems? Even EA were bitching about their Wii games underperforming.

Last edited by Westlo; 2009-12-19 at 19:59.
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Old 2009-12-20, 06:55   Link #65
Leo Keichi
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I think that the PS3 has a lot of potential yet. I get the feeling that its sales will steadily increase over time, now that the quantity of famous games is starting to increase. Maybe the problem is that nowadays you must spend a huge amount of time to make a good game, with a team of more than 100 people, I believe. In the 16-bit era, it took only some 15 people to make a hit like Sonic, for example, and some four months, I believe. While a game like Final Fantasy XIII took some good three years to be made. So, the tendency is that the number of blockbusters will decrease.

I think Nintendo was smart focusing on this different demographic, instead of adopting the same strategy as Sony, although I'm not sure if games like Wii Sports, Wii Fit, Tomodachi Collection and what-else will continue to be a success for much longer. We have countless versions of games like Mega Man, Castlevania, Shin Megami Tensei and so on, but I can't imagine them making Wii Fit 11, for example. People will most likely stop buying these games once they are not novelty anymore.

Otoh, there are kids who like games but wouldn't want to have an Xbox or a PS, because their games would be too difficult, and not really aimed at them.
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Old 2009-12-20, 09:36   Link #66
roriconfan
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Wii is like Naruto. Everyone knows it, most watch it. But it is faaaaaaaaaaaaaar from being a good one.
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Old 2009-12-20, 12:49   Link #67
Benoit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo
Iwata himself said Nintendo have dropped the ball with the Wii this year in Japan, do you disagree with the head of Nintendo Benoit?
I don't see how that changes the fact that the total sales figures are good.
Quote:
138mil vs 25mil & 20mil
Yeah, so? The other two still sold well. There's no denying that.

I should also point out that the PS2 is still sold today because Sony hasn't discontinued it yet while the other players chose to concentrate on their newest consoles. That'll also inflate the PS2's sales count.
Quote:
It's silly to say the Wii is doing better in regards to market share than the Ps2 did
I never made this claim. Don't put words in my mouth.
Quote:
it's not really doing "that" much better than the ps2 did
Maybe you should check the sales numbers of the PS2 two years after its release. I think you'll be surprised.
Quote:
Even if what you said was true the Wii has just about f all big 3rd party games attached to it right now in development
This is wrong, and once again proves you don't really know what you're talking about. Great games are still coming, like No More Heroes, Red Steel 2, Tatsunoko vs. Capcom: Ultimate All-Stars, Arc Rise Fantasia, Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: The Crystal Bearers, and more.
Quote:
Why would Ubisoft lose money on Wii games when they can sell 2 million copies of Assassin's Creed 2 in a week on the HD systems?
Because they don't lose money at all? It's a myth that third-party developers aren't profitable on the Wii. Check the sales numbers, and keep in mind that they had to invest less money on Wii projects because they don't require expensive HD graphics.
Quote:
We have countless versions of games like Mega Man, Castlevania, Shin Megami Tensei and so on, but I can't imagine them making Wii Fit 11, for example. People will most likely stop buying these games once they are not novelty anymore.
I think you underestimate the general population's hunger for sequels of games they like. There's a lot of precedent.
Quote:
Wii is like Naruto. Everyone knows it, most watch it. But it is faaaaaaaaaaaaaar from being a good one.
Nice flamebait.
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Old 2009-12-20, 23:49   Link #68
Nosauz
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Benoit just take a look at the wii game list and that's your answer. The wii game catalogue has ballooned far more than the library from 360 or ps3, why? because just like the iphone it's casual consumer heaven but then again it's ok to keep claiming that the wii is some perfect platform which it isnt.

Ok sonic unleashed, you have this concept of a plumber, and he jumps on dudes to kill em, and occasionally you ask him to puzzle platform, then suddenly you give him a fucking gun for the shits and giggles, and then instead of the 3rd person screen setup you've used you switch to a 3rd person gears of war style roady running 3rd person shooter, and to top it all off you gave no strong reason to change demographic and genre, you decided that the game required a change! See what I did thar. I replaced sonic with mario and gave him a ridiculous makeover like werehog, and the game sounds like shit. Half a good game doesn't make a good game, sonic is fast speed action, with very little platforming elements within it, and on top of that it's fast, so a complete change in pace for the game in the werehog stages is just like mixing toothpaste and orange juice, and honestly the half assed oh sonic's now a werehog was completely stupid. I play sonic becuase I generally expect a certain style of gameplay, I play mario for that reason too, but to sacrifice that iconic essence of the character is just stupid.

@roricon

narutohimette and it's sequels are probably some of the most fun I've had playing fighting games since I'm pretty average at them. Plus where button mashing actually helps you get more power that freaking genius.
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Old 2009-12-21, 09:14   Link #69
HayashiTakara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
Iwata himself said Nintendo have dropped the ball with the Wii this year in Japan, do you disagree with the head of Nintendo Benoit? Obviously NSMB Wii has saved it for now but that comment was before that.
Source Plix?

That's why it's still outselling all competition this year as a whole
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Old 2009-12-21, 10:53   Link #70
2H-Dragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
Source Plix?

That's why it's still outselling all competition this year as a whole
Just, because the console is selling doesn't mean anything. You have to look at total software & hardware sales. According to NPD Group the 360 total revenue is way more then the Wii(though that's based on US sales figures of 2009 only, there is no number on world wide sales afaik). With the PS3 and Wii being pretty close.

As I game dev I'd be more proud of a console that sells more games, but that's just me. Wii is just a paperweight for most people imo.
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Old 2009-12-21, 11:29   Link #71
Nosauz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
Source Plix?

That's why it's still outselling all competition this year as a whole
actually if you want to go sift sankakucomplex or kotaku I do remember reading an article about the head of nintendo being disappointed with the wii but then again those blogs are a mess to search and their tags are pretty shitty.
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Old 2009-12-21, 12:37   Link #72
Benoit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz
because just like the iphone it's casual consumer heaven but then again it's ok to keep claiming that the wii is some perfect platform which it isnt.
Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said that it was a perfect platform. But you're making gross generalisations.
Quote:
See what I did thar. I replaced sonic with mario and gave him a ridiculous makeover like werehog, and the game sounds like shit.
You think it's ridiculous, and you think it makes the game sound like shit. $DEITY forbid that they try something new with Sonic. Mario does it all the time.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's shit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon
Just, because the console is selling doesn't mean anything.
Why not? Nintendo does make money on those, you know, and it means a larger installed user base to sell games to.
Quote:
According to NPD Group the 360 total revenue is way more then the Wii
But the Wii is more profitable because it costs less to develop games for it. That's an important detail.
Quote:
As I game dev I'd be more proud of a console that sells more games, but that's just me.
A game developer doesn't care one bit about the console. They develop games.
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Old 2009-12-21, 13:21   Link #73
Nosauz
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Look if they wanted to add a beatem up or shmup to sonic it's fine, but sonic is defined by speed, adding slow game play to a very fast character is out of character and in essence bad writing. If the combat was fast like sonic then it would make sense but have something diverge from a theme established long ago is not the way to make a great game. Not to mention the combat system being quite terrible on par with that crappy shadow game.

Look you don't say it but your vehement denialism of critical flaws with the wii platform make you a yes man for a platform that doesn't support games other than first party titles. The point is the wii is a flawed system yet at every point I've made about the catalogue being filled with predominantly crap you continue to say that there are good games, yes your right, but it doesn't mean that I'm wrong. In fact to a casual consumer, who doesn't read kotaku or gaming news sites, you'd probably bounce around a bunch of bad games before you found what you were looking for.
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Old 2009-12-21, 13:44   Link #74
2H-Dragon
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Originally Posted by Benoit View Post
Why not? Nintendo does make money on those, you know, and it means a larger installed user base to sell games to.

But the Wii is more profitable because it costs less to develop games for it. That's an important detail.

A game developer doesn't care one bit about the console. They develop games.
Yeah, but I'm just saying just because they sell the most consoles doesn't mean they are dominating. IMO if you talk about market share you need to look at the entire picture(so you have to include the sales of software and accessories). And when comparing Market share you compare the revenue not the net profit. I just can't stand people saying oh the Wii is dominating, sure it is, but purely in console sales.
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Old 2009-12-21, 14:46   Link #75
HayashiTakara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon View Post
As I game dev I'd be more proud of a console that sells more games, but that's just me. Wii is just a paperweight for most people imo.
according to who? You have no basis for that assumption. Personal bias means nothing.

I was just at game stop about 15mins ago, the Wii side was full of people browsing through the section with 0 people except for me buying a game for my brother in law at the Ps3 section.
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Old 2009-12-21, 15:41   Link #76
Nosauz
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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
according to who? You have no basis for that assumption. Personal bias means nothing.

I was just at game stop about 15mins ago, the Wii side was full of people browsing through the section with 0 people except for me buying a game for my brother in law at the Ps3 section.
ok your anectodotal evidence versus his broad general statement? hmm which one is more right? wait a minute it's just a game of he said she said.

still game devs shouldn't care about the console they choose to develop for, if they choose to make a game they should make a good game, because in the end that's what leads to sales and repeat customer business, if your game sucks you'll probably sucker in some the first time but eventually your base will disappear, this is why sometimes there are perks to developing on an open system versus the closed console market. Oh well.
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Old 2009-12-21, 16:20   Link #77
ChainLegacy
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Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
Wii is like Naruto. Everyone knows it, most watch it. But it is faaaaaaaaaaaaaar from being a good one.
The virtual console alone makes the Wii far better than Naruto. Screw modern gaming anyways, this is supposed to be an old school thread
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Old 2009-12-21, 16:30   Link #78
HayashiTakara
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Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
The virtual console alone makes the Wii far better than Naruto. Screw modern gaming anyways, this is supposed to be an old school thread
True true, but the ones who decided for whatever reason to bring up the current gen are too young to remember the 16bit era clearly. Now if it was about the PSX v.s N64, they'll remember it more clearly.

You can't really have a good discussion if you're basing things off of the memory of a 5~7 yr old at the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
ok your anectodotal evidence versus his broad general statement? hmm which one is more right? wait a minute it's just a game of he said she said.

still game devs shouldn't care about the console they choose to develop for, if they choose to make a game they should make a good game, because in the end that's what leads to sales and repeat customer business, if your game sucks you'll probably sucker in some the first time but eventually your base will disappear, this is why sometimes there are perks to developing on an open system versus the closed console market. Oh well.
Whichever system has the largest market is where small developers/publishers will flock too. It'll have the greatest ratio of success. If these companies with limited budgets try to develop for lets say the PS3 they'll go bankrupt within their first title release. Hell they might even lose money before the development process is done.
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Old 2009-12-21, 18:20   Link #79
2H-Dragon
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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
according to who? You have no basis for that assumption. Personal bias means nothing.

I was just at game stop about 15mins ago, the Wii side was full of people browsing through the section with 0 people except for me buying a game for my brother in law at the Ps3 section.
W8 what? according to who? According to me. As I said in the post. The point I wanted to make was made clear, and was based on NPD. Don't ignore that and quote something where it says IMO, and I think and then attacking it on saying Personal Bias means nothing. Which is true, but it's obvious I already knew that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
Whichever system has the largest market is where small developers/publishers will flock too. It'll have the greatest ratio of success. If these companies with limited budgets try to develop for lets say the PS3 they'll go bankrupt within their first title release. Hell they might even lose money before the development process is done.
Good point. The biggest Software market share is held by XBOX360 followed by Wii then the PS3(again statement based on 2009 US Data of the NPD). Considering the vast majority of big sellers on the Wii are first-party. The XBLA and PSN might offer a better platform. It really isn't as one-sided as you think.

edit: after looking for the source I read about the total market share including accessories, console and software, I couldn't find it. What I did find that the software marketshare of the Wii is on 40% XBOX on 37% and PS3 on 19%(november 2009 USA). Then again the statements aren't that off anyhow.
http://www.industrygamers.com/news/x...-says-analyst/

Doesn't anyone have links for the complete picture.

edit2: I was right in total software sales the XBOX 360 does lead. xD Numbers are from 2008 and before. The game per console ration is 8.1 for the 360, 5.5 for the Wii and 5.3 for the ps3. "However, Xbox 360 still rules the roost when it comes to software, with 94 million games having been sold in total. The Wii has shifted 73 million titles and the PS3 30 million." No doubt these numbers changed a lot. I think in favor of the PS3. Though imo it's still safe to say the XBOX 360 leads.


http://www.mcvuk.com/news/32372/US-W...s-ahead-of-360
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/featur...er_.php?page=4

Last edited by 2H-Dragon; 2009-12-21 at 19:10.
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Old 2009-12-21, 21:32   Link #80
HayashiTakara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon View Post
W8 what? according to who? According to me. As I said in the post. The point I wanted to make was made clear, and was based on NPD. Don't ignore that and quote something where it says IMO, and I think and then attacking it on saying Personal Bias means nothing. Which is true, but it's obvious I already knew that.


Good point. The biggest Software market share is held by XBOX360 followed by Wii then the PS3(again statement based on 2009 US Data of the NPD). Considering the vast majority of big sellers on the Wii are first-party. The XBLA and PSN might offer a better platform. It really isn't as one-sided as you think.
The PS3 hit a spike in sales (in favor) due to its dramatic price cut, it's half the price of it's initial cost. Sony is taking a massive hit on it. But those who wanted a PS3 but couldn't afford or didn't want to dish out 700 bucks for a game console are finally able to buy one.

Sony still has a lackluster library, due to many reasons including development costs, cycle and smallest install base. Also with very few exclusives, nearly every game you find on the PS3 you can find on the 360 and the 360 has a larger install base. So it leaves to the question as to, if you have a 360 why have a PS3?

Nintendo in it's history, it's first party always outsells 3rd party.
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