AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

View Poll Results: Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 26 Rating
Perfect 10 41 18.39%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 31 13.90%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 26 11.66%
7 out of 10 : Good 24 10.76%
6 out of 10 : Average 23 10.31%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 29 13.00%
4 out of 10 : Poor 12 5.38%
3 out of 10 : Bad 5 2.24%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 5 2.24%
1 out of 10 : Painful 27 12.11%
Voters: 223. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-12-28, 18:52   Link #341
Arachanox
Trust the red.
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Guest House
I see. Thanks for that - and do you suppose the EP5 characters were foreshadowed in any way? Perhaps I should replay EP4.
__________________

Thanks to Tjaard!
Arachanox is offline  
Old 2009-12-28, 19:13   Link #342
chounokoe
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Düsseldorf, Germany
Age: 29
Send a message via MSN to chounokoe Send a message via Skype™ to chounokoe
Why do I let myself get dragged in here again? I don't know...but somethings just have to be said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
Let's not focus much on Higurashi, since this is not the proper thread, but for what concerns my comparisons ...
Well if you bring up a comparison it is to be expected that it will be discussed, especially if your claims are so...interesting.

Quote:
The Questions Arcs in Higurashi focused on the arc-specific mysteries, while dropping clues about the general plot, which came progressively and smoothly into focus during the Answers Arcs. Hence I believe that if you're interested in solving the overall mystery (aka "wtf is wrong with Hinamizawa?"), you can skip the Questions Arcs, since the clues dropped there aren't solid enough for rational deduction. I never implied that you should watch only the Ansewrs Arcs, since you'll miss most of the characterization and set-up!
Well actually I and I think many other's here had the basic mystery of Higurashi figured out after the Question arcs, so that proves that all the pieces were in place, you just have to have the motivation to put them together.
Spoiler for Higurashi Kai:
But the twins, the 3 rules (X, Y and Z), constant and variable things, the time where everything swings around, all those things were there, you just had to think about it.

Of course you can switch to the finale immediatly, but you can also dismiss everything except the final chapter of a detective novel. You will know who killed whom and why, but that's not what it is about.
Shouldn't it be about trying to figure it out yourself? And the more difficult it is to find out which things are real clues among the red herrings, who is an important person and who not and all those things, the more satisfaction you get when you're presented with the solution and you got it right. And even if you were wrong, as long as it is plausible it should be a challenge for you to be better next time.

Quote:
Also there is a trend to counter the best theories from the previous arc, in the following ... this might just be because of that awfully executed meta-world argument ping-pong or much more likely IMHO to keep the mystery and fun theories running despite the bad writing.
I don't want to sound offensive but, you know that this is a mystery novel?!
In a mystery novel there is supposed to be heavy objection against the theories that are provided by the representation of the reader 'the detective'.
Only in Umineko where you are battling against a magical interpretation of events, it is clear that you need foolproof facts...and that is what is gained through the metaworld arguments, namely the red truth.
If you think it is bad writing it could be out of frustration that you're feeling like grasping for straws, but I really think that there are several points that prove that this is a well written mystery.

Quote:
Nope, though I acknowledge the possibility, I tend to think it was luck
Of course there's always luck involved when making theories.
If you leave you house tomorrow morning with the thought 'It is safe', this is only a theory and with luck it proves to be true...if you're unlucky you slip and break an arm.
The same thing works on a bigger scale with solving a mystery. Of course you could pick exactly the wrong clues, make a perfectly fine explenation on how a murder happened...and in the end it turns out that those things were planted by the murder or maybe even just fell in place by accident. In that case you were unlucky, but you're theory was not immediatly BAD.

In real life you won't get a foolproof way towards the truth, where all noise is elliminated by some wondrous forces, and that is what mystery fiction is about:
Figuring out the truth despite the obstacles.

Quote:
I had mostly the meta-world in mind, not the different real-worlds (which can or can not be real, alternative, or whatever universes; since in the meta-world everyone just accepts them and the writers never bothered to drop any info about them)
You are trying to hard at the wrong points I think. Just accept them as what they appear to you, different worlds that are used as a playground by witches. You could even just as well add such a layer to Higurashi.
If you were to disregard the metaworld, you would have a similar structure of events as in Higurashi, so try looking at it from the perspective that the metaworld is just there to give the author a possibility to actively counter or approve of some theories.
And of course this is needed way more in Umi than in Higu, because seeing that you are presented with things that are clearly not there from a rational standpoint, you need something to guide you along...and this would be the red truth. So try working with it instead of hating it...that is of course in case you are in it for solving the case.

Quote:
Finally! alas two, three months ago I had to argue even about this
There are enough people who accepted for a long time already, that to a certain degree magic exists in the universe of 'When they cry' (assuming that Higurashi works with similar principles).
If we are to compare it with Umineko we know for one that, except some minor alterations that never really cross minor poltergeist behaviour, the ways in which the supernatural can alter the real world seem heavily limited.
Spoiler for Higurashi Kai:

If we assume that the powers in Umineko work in the same way, we can also assume that there are no useless arguments before.
The problem is, like Lambda also said 'The truth of the future wins over the truth of the past'. So as long as we can't counter the truth that seems to be written down in the letters, Marias depiction of magical events in her diary and as long as there are people believing it, magic existed in that place.
Only when we can find a possible way that does not violate the absolute truth we were told, only then can we make the magic in that moment vanish and make room for the truth.

To compare it to Higurashi again:
Spoiler for Higurashi Onikakushi - Tatarigoroshi:
__________________
愛が無ければ・・・視えない!!
chounokoe is offline  
Old 2009-12-29, 09:09   Link #343
Nontype
CONTRACTS
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
In real life you won't get a foolproof way towards the truth, where all noise is elliminated by some wondrous forces, and that is what mystery fiction is about:
Figuring out the truth despite the obstacles.

(snip)

There are enough people who accepted for a long time already, that to a certain degree magic exists in the universe of 'When they cry' (assuming that Higurashi works with similar principles).
If we are to compare it with Umineko we know for one that, except some minor alterations that never really cross minor poltergeist behaviour, the ways in which the supernatural can alter the real world seem heavily limited.

(snip)

If we assume that the powers in Umineko work in the same way, we can also assume that there are no useless arguments before.
The problem is, like Lambda also said 'The truth of the future wins over the truth of the past'. So as long as we can't counter the truth that seems to be written down in the letters, Marias depiction of magical events in her diary and as long as there are people believing it, magic existed in that place.
Only when we can find a possible way that does not violate the absolute truth we were told, only then can we make the magic in that moment vanish and make room for the truth.
So do you all think that Magic in Umineko based on Subjectivist Metaphysics or Objectivist Metaphysics?

In a world with Subjective Metaphysics, there is little or no Absolute Truth beyond the personal. For example : Reality exists and isn't an illusion is an example of an absolute truth possible in Subjective Metaphysics. However, how we understand that world is literally true to us, if not to anyone else. Magic, then, is the attempted imposition of your reality into the reality of others.

This is illustrated by Beatrice's attempts to get everyone to believe she is a witch (Her absolute truth) and make it real to everyone on the island. Whether she uses magic to impose her views on others or sets events up to make them look like magic isn't relevant, because the belief will make it literally true. The same goes for Battler's attempts to prove no magic occured on Rokkenjima. So that would mean that Battler is using Magic as well.

This is in opposition to Objective Metaphysics, which holds that there is an Absolute Truth underlying all things, and that our perceptions merely effect how we view something. In such a worldview, Magic is more or less forcefully attempting to alter the perceptions of others to fit your own.

For example, if I were to construct a small bomb that could be snuck into food and blow out someone's stomach, I wouldn't have used magic to do it. Remember, this is 1986, so nanotechnology and the like are right out, even for someone of Kinzo's means. Possible anyway? Probably not. But if I actually had True Magick, I could do it easily. No matter what evidence that it was done by humans, magic did it and this will never change, even if no one can tell.

Sorry if I'm derailing anything here. Perhaps we should have a thread discussing the nature of magic in Umineko?
Nontype is offline  
Old 2009-12-29, 14:08   Link #344
chounokoe
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Düsseldorf, Germany
Age: 29
Send a message via MSN to chounokoe Send a message via Skype™ to chounokoe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nontype View Post
Magic, then, is the attempted imposition of your reality into the reality of others.
[...]
So that would mean that Battler is using Magic as well.
That is not really what I was aiming for, I don't know about others.

There are several types of magic within Umineko, some introduced in the plot and some have to be constructed by the reader/viewer himself.
The magic that is presented in the plot (the white magic vs. the black magic) and worked by the characters outside the metaworld is what Battler is trying to disprove. So what we are also trying to disprove is this classical view of magic as a force unbound by the laws of science, like Beatrice's endless magic.

What Battler and Beatrice are working from their position in the metaworld is constructing theories, which then take form. At least this is how I explain it to myself, that this is a natural law of this metaworld, which is in no direct connection to ours.
Their theories are like every theory that becomes accepted, they become common truth and therefore shape the people's world...but through that they are not bound to be actually shaping the world in itself.
For example the theory that the earth is flat, for people long ago this was truth. There was a horrible abyss beyond the end of the world and there were creatures more horrible than you can tell. But then it became common truth that the earth was shaped like a ball and the former truth began to vanish.

It never changed the world, so that theory was never magic, still it formed the people's perception of the world. It would be similar with Rokkenjima, as long as Battler has no solution based on scientific laws how the events could have passed, we have to accept Beatrice's magical solution...so for us magical creatures existed on Rokkenjima.

Quote:
Remember, this is 1986, so nanotechnology and the like are right out, even for someone of Kinzo's means. Possible anyway? Probably not. But if I actually had True Magick, I could do it easily. No matter what evidence that it was done by humans, magic did it and this will never change, even if no one can tell.
Well, this is not about nanotechnology. I believe a human with his thought based on 80's knowledge like Battler would be reffering more to spy- and detective-fiction of his times, where such things where presented however illogical they were.
It was already implied by Lambda that most of Battler's reasoning could have been denied in red, we just don't know why Beato didn't use it.
Those small bombs never came into existence through Battler's reasoning, it was just a sword of 'possibility' to strike the witch who claims that only magic could have made this murder possible.

Of course if you would make something exist that couldn't exist in '86 like a nanotechnology bomb, it would be no better than a flying stake that impales on command.
__________________
愛が無ければ・・・視えない!!
chounokoe is offline  
Old 2009-12-29, 15:17   Link #345
Nontype
CONTRACTS
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
Those small bombs never came into existence through Battler's reasoning, it was just a sword of 'possibility' to strike the witch who claims that only magic could have made this murder possible.
Prove that they did not come into being retroactively as a result of his theory.

My question was about metaphysics, though. See, I personally think the real mystery in Umineko is not a traditional whodunit mystery, but rather a Gnostic mystery about the nature of reality in the context of the story.

What is the nature of this "Game"?

Is it possible to objectively say magic does or does not exist?

If it does exist objectively, why does it seem not to function when nonbelievers are present?

If it does not exist objectively, how do you explain the presence of the astral world?

What if magic is instead subjective by it's very nature, refusing to obey the simple dichotomy of yes/no?

As Ryu has said he wants a more ambiguous ending for Umineko, it may be those greater mysteries that are left unsolved.

See -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjectivism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objecti...y)#Objectivism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality
Nontype is offline  
Old 2009-12-29, 21:33   Link #346
Malkuth
Banned
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: London
Age: 34
Send a message via MSN to Malkuth Send a message via Skype™ to Malkuth
The curse of relativism strikes back

It won't be long till we see posts using a dead (or not) cat as an argument about the existence of magic in this show

or worse more blog post equating Battler to Dawkins and Beatrice to the pope, ayatollah, or whatever

My point is that people read to deep into another repetitive anime, cashing in the original's success
Malkuth is offline  
Old 2009-12-29, 21:43   Link #347
Tjfarmer
I'm almost there!
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Bay Area, California
Age: 20
Send a message via AIM to Tjfarmer
Honestly, all I'm getting from your posts are;

"Higurashi made sense once I finished seeing the whole story."

"Umineko doesn't make sense, and is pointless, because I don't know the truth, and neither does anyone else."
Tjfarmer is offline  
Old 2009-12-29, 21:49   Link #348
k//eternal
do you know ベアトリーチェ様?
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
It won't be long till we see posts using a dead (or not) cat as an argument about the existence of magic in this show
But that argument was made within the story itself, so it shouldn't have been long anyway.

There's actually a lot to analyze in Umineko, but the anime has ruined most of it.
k//eternal is offline  
Old 2009-12-29, 21:53   Link #349
Malkuth
Banned
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: London
Age: 34
Send a message via MSN to Malkuth Send a message via Skype™ to Malkuth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tjfarmer View Post
Honestly, all I'm getting from your posts are;

"Higurashi made sense once I finished seeing the whole story."

"Umineko doesn't make sense, and is pointless, because I don't know the truth, and neither does anyone else."
OK, maybe I should sum my opinion in:

"Higurashi was original and kept the viewer at the edge from the start 'till the end (of the second TV run)"

"Umineko is abusing the former show's structure and ends up being unnecessarily convoluted and too much read into, while the best thing it has to offer are fat-tights, occasional pizza-gore and bunny girls"

Now, if anyone wants to get a kick into absurdity just watch something decent, there are countless anime, films, novels, games and books out there ... certainly Umineko is not one of them

And for the book, I am forming my opinion solemnly based on the anime adaptions of Higurashi and Umineko.
Malkuth is offline  
Old 2009-12-29, 21:58   Link #350
Tjfarmer
I'm almost there!
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Bay Area, California
Age: 20
Send a message via AIM to Tjfarmer
Okay, I agree that from the standpoint of an anime only watcher, that the anime can be seen as reusing a structure of a previous series, and is also a horrible mess of a show. The anime really makes no sense, but the visual novel does.

But I'm not gonna get into that, because by now you've noticed the only people arguing to you that Umineko isn't horrible, are the VN readers. But that is mainly because, they actually do make sense, while the anime doesn't.
Tjfarmer is offline  
Old 2009-12-29, 22:20   Link #351
Nontype
CONTRACTS
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
or worse more blog post equating Battler to Dawkins and Beatrice to the pope, ayatollah, or whatever
Meh, I personally equated Battler to the Technocracy and Beatrice to the Traditions (Tabletop Gamer Humor) but it's kind of like the same principle.
Nontype is offline  
Old 2009-12-30, 14:11   Link #352
Steampunk Librarian
Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
To be honest, I felt the series made sense for the first 2 EPs (not just TV eps, but arcs) and then I think EP 3-4 got rushed. At least that is how it looks to me, because most of the VN readers only majorly complain about EP 3-4 (and I can see the huge chunks of INFO they left out when I read the EP 1-4 threads).

Last edited by Steampunk Librarian; 2009-12-30 at 14:11. Reason: typo
Steampunk Librarian is offline  
Old 2009-12-30, 14:29   Link #353
Marion
The Great Dine
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steampunk Librarian View Post
To be honest, I felt the series made sense for the first 2 EPs (not just TV eps, but arcs) and then I think EP 3-4 got rushed. At least that is how it looks to me, because most of the VN readers only majorly complain about EP 3-4 (and I can see the huge chunks of INFO they left out when I read the EP 1-4 threads).
Quite the opposite. EP 1 and 4 are probably the most rushed for me. EP 3 was executed to near perfection, despite minor problems. EP 2 was generally okay however.
__________________

Sig by nocco
Marion is offline  
Old 2009-12-30, 21:58   Link #354
Ronove
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Firmly, disappointed in the episode. There's a lack of Beatrice and Battler love.

I was hoping they'd showed the Red Truths from Lambda; it would kill Anime-Viewers minds.

I want to see an Anime Troll-kenstal picture too =w=
Ronove is offline  
Old 2009-12-30, 22:47   Link #355
twisted-pisces
Shadow girl
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Canada
Not the best eps. I hope Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru is turned into season two of this anime. Still so many questions >>
__________________
Fanservice Fangirl
twisted-pisces is offline  
Old 2009-12-31, 21:00   Link #356
CainSonozaki
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
I honestly cant rate this episode. however i will say i liked it. Lack of red irked me. But the golden land scene and battle scenes were really good. Anges death scene was ok but beatrice was telling battler how ange was getting ripped apart when she just disintegrated.

Spoiler for cut:
CainSonozaki is offline  
Old 2009-12-31, 23:12   Link #357
k//eternal
do you know ベアトリーチェ様?
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 25
I'm pretty sure that was Lambda being silly, but it did make the omission more obvious
k//eternal is offline  
Old 2010-01-01, 01:42   Link #358
Forsaken_Infinity
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: United States of America
Age: 23
Send a message via Skype™ to Forsaken_Infinity
1/10. It was *very* painful to watch.
Forsaken_Infinity is offline  
Old 2010-01-01, 13:55   Link #359
*Sapphire*
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Um, regardless, they probably shouldn't have taken this VN into custody without sufficient funds. :l

It was just rushed and hardly epic. I... just don't know what to say except that I didn't like it. Episode 25 was much better than this.
*Sapphire* is offline  
Old 2010-01-02, 17:12   Link #360
UPcoming
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Is it just me or is the amount of blood that Beato pukes just wayyyyy too much >.< But then again, it is sort of hot in a way XD
UPcoming is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 00:53.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.