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Old 2010-06-09, 18:42   Link #1981
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Still, I don't have a reason to doubt Battler was hiding in the closet. What you said was true, but there's no reason either way, for him to choose hiding in the closet over hiding in the centre of the room, or vice versa. I just prefer him hiding in the closet, since to me, Erika is less likely to check it. After all, Erika, by the theories I follow, doesn't exist, so her appearence in the room is actually in reality, one of the other people on the island. And since there's still a lot of Ushiromiya family members alive to rescue Battler, it's a good chance Erika represents one of them.
It's really important to draw a distinction between the motivations of the pieces and metas here, because they're not compatible with each other at all. On the piece level, it is confirmed that Battler was hiding somewhere in the room at the moment Erika entered. However, suppose "Erika" represents one of Battler's co-conspirators. Then, once Battler realized who had come into the room, there would be no reason to continue hiding, and furthermore, Erika would have no reason to search for him.

We can actually explain everyone's movements by proposing that Battler, "Erika", and Kanon agreed to meet up in Battler's guest room to set up the second twilight. "Erika's" repair of the chain lock with duct tape was part of the preparations. Additionally, if the bathroom trap really existed, then "Erika" could have constructed it herself when she went in there.
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Old 2010-06-09, 20:36   Link #1982
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Okay I'll bite this Erika Ball. My solution is a bit convoluted and I'm sure that at least one point it breaks the red.
Okay lets first start off with the times where Kanon loses his name (and disappears). In both situations it is implied that Kanon died after Jessica. (both via magic scenes but lets just assume its true.) Then reason that Kanon swears off his name as soon as Jessica dies.

Now Erika enters the room as Jessica. She goes into the bathroom and ends up being killed by the trap. (Erika remembers suffering from severe burns which could of been caused by electrocution) After this happens Battler unlocks the door and escapes. Kanon (somehow) hears Jessica's screams and comes running to the room. He sees Jessica's body with sparks so he turns off the electricity(either by going to the breakers or by flicking the light switch, we know from Episode 1 that there is some sort of generator) and rescues Jessica's body. He then decides to pay respect to Jessica by moving it to the closet(Yeah why I don't know) During this he swears off the Kanon name. He then locks the door and enters the bathroom. Erika's spirit then enters Kanon's body and knowing nothing of her death continues investigating thinking along the same reasonings as she was before. She isn't Kanon as Kanon doesn't exist, and Battler isn't in the room, instead Jessica's body is. She also isn't the rescuer as Kanon was the one who reset the chain lock.

Evidence: Jessica's possesion
Every trap that Battler comes up with in previous episodes is designed to kill not trap.
Kanon's mysterious disappearances coincide with him losing his name.
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Old 2010-06-10, 13:31   Link #1983
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I'm not sure if this was answered before, but Kyrie hid or was found in Krauss's study? Any idea on how she was able to get inside without a master key? IIRC, Natsuhi made sure all non-public rooms were to be locked, and Krauss also made sure that at least his personal rooms were secured. One place he wouldn't want trespassed at the time of the conference would be his study..
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Old 2010-06-10, 13:52   Link #1984
Klashikari
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
This makes sense for the meta-world, but it makes absolutely no sense on the board. At no point before ep6 have we ever really had to reconcile the fact that the actions of pieces made no sense.
That's exactly the point. Episode 6 was a mix of totally far fetched actions that are "still possible" (or "in character"), but still arguably not possible without the GM scripting this way.
Suffice to say, considering Erika's various comments during her little fun on the gameboard in Episode 6, she is breaking its "fourth wall" so to speak.

The board is particularly meaningless as a "real life situation", however, it is still elligible because it is within the scope of "what really happened", back with the original timeline and the original murderer(s).
It is a basic "crazy what if" that is arguably not believable, but still provide clues, if you suspend your disbelief (hence what if).
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Old 2010-06-10, 14:18   Link #1985
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The board is particularly meaningless as a "real life situation", however, it is still elligible because it is within the scope of "what really happened", back with the original timeline and the original murderer(s).
It is a basic "crazy what if" that is arguably not believable, but still provide clues, if you suspend your disbelief (hence what if).
No, I'm pretty sure it doesn't work even then. It cannot be eligible as a sequence of even potential events. This is not merely a case of picking the wackiest and strangest possible sequence of events while still retaining plausibility based on the nature of the pieces involved.

Here, pieces violate their nature, take actions which only make sense on the meta-level, perform acts without any prompting which no reasonable person (nor any person as we know the pieces to be) would ever take, and find themselves in situations which appear to have no cause (Erika is attacked by a trap no one seems to have had any reason to set, Battler is rescued by a person who seems to have no reason to rescue him, Kanon disappears for no immediately discernible reason or purpose). The actions of these pieces are about as realistic as a demon-possessed Jessica chasing Kyrie around, and that didn't happen either. At least not literally. So why not this scene?

Of course there are clues if we suspend our disbelief. But the same is true of magic scenes, which I would argue this scene not only may be, but has to be. As a magic scene, it works perfectly fine. As anything else, it's complete nonsense. And note that a magic scene or three springs forth from it, so we can probably easily accept that the whole thing is (other than the reds we have to work with, but those necessitate only a certain sequence of events which is not as unbelievable as the whole scene).
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Old 2010-06-10, 14:28   Link #1986
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
The board is particularly meaningless as a "real life situation", however, it is still elligible because it is within the scope of "what really happened", back with the original timeline and the original murderer(s).
I don't like this idea. I don't like the idea that the meta-world can be more real than the "real" world, game or not.

Before Ep6, we are basically straight-up told, through various means, time and time again, that magic doesn't exist. In the Uminekoverse, it's merely a combination of stage trickery and pleasant delusions. It's not "real" magic.

So why is it that all of a sudden people are willing to accept stuff like "Featherine is the true form of Hachijou" and "the gameboards don't have to make sense so long as they work on a meta-level"? What changed?

Just because the protagonist is now a witch does not mean that we have to accept him.
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Old 2010-06-10, 19:05   Link #1987
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I don't like this idea. I don't like the idea that the meta-world can be more real than the "real" world, game or not.

Before Ep6, we are basically straight-up told, through various means, time and time again, that magic doesn't exist. In the Uminekoverse, it's merely a combination of stage trickery and pleasant delusions. It's not "real" magic.

So why is it that all of a sudden people are willing to accept stuff like "Featherine is the true form of Hachijou" and "the gameboards don't have to make sense so long as they work on a meta-level"? What changed?

Just because the protagonist is now a witch does not mean that we have to accept him.
EP 6 gave a lot more insight to the nature of the board and the game itself as a whole. Along with that, Hachijou and Ange's meeting is quite literally a time paradox. There is no way it should even exist and yet it does.
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Old 2010-06-10, 19:19   Link #1988
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I don't like this idea. I don't like the idea that the meta-world can be more real than the "real" world, game or not.

Before Ep6, we are basically straight-up told, through various means, time and time again, that magic doesn't exist. In the Uminekoverse, it's merely a combination of stage trickery and pleasant delusions. It's not "real" magic.

So why is it that all of a sudden people are willing to accept stuff like "Featherine is the true form of Hachijou" and "the gameboards don't have to make sense so long as they work on a meta-level"? What changed?

Just because the protagonist is now a witch does not mean that we have to accept him.
But ironically, the only way to easily explain Umineko is to apply the Author Theory, which I'm not a personal fan of, or admit that magic must exist in some format.
Just not on October 4th and 5, 1986. That is the absolute.
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Old 2010-06-10, 19:33   Link #1989
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
EP 6 gave a lot more insight to the nature of the board and the game itself as a whole.
Such as? Does this insight completely undermine the idea that the board scenarios can and do occur in reality/some form of reality?

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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Along with that, Hachijou and Ange's meeting is quite literally a time paradox. There is no way it should even exist and yet it does.
Relatively simple solution: All of Ange's scenes are narrated by Meta-Ange, and thus the narration is completely unreliable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
But ironically, the only way to easily explain Umineko is to apply the Author Theory, which I'm not a personal fan of, or admit that magic must exist in some format.
Just not on October 4th and 5, 1986. That is the absolute.
I remember theorizing when Ep6 first came out that Hachijou is Ryukishi's way of allowing us to utterly deny magic; by denying the very existence of the games themselves. Kind of interesting, that.

Author Theory is looking better and better by the day...
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Old 2010-06-10, 19:46   Link #1990
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I remember theorizing when Ep6 first came out that Hachijou is Ryukishi's way of allowing us to utterly deny magic; by denying the very existence of the games themselves. Kind of interesting, that.

Author Theory is looking better and better by the day...
I still don't like the look of it myself. Denying the existence of the games makes me feel like solving them is futile. If you show me something, and then tell me to do it, but then add on that it doesn't really exist in the first place, I can't gather any motivation to try solving it in the first place. I want to solve it mostly for the whole egotistical pleasure of outsmarting Ryuukishi in his own games, but also because I want to understand the satisfaction Battler will have after pushing through all these games to find the answer and his hopeful happy end.
And Author Theory to me, destroys the point of solving them. Even if I solve them, Battler can't solve something that doesn't exist, so I won't be able to understand him. Take a pillar out from under my motivation, and I'm a lot less likely to put the same amount of effort into it.
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Old 2010-06-10, 19:52   Link #1991
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
I still don't like the look of it myself. Denying the existence of the games makes me feel like solving them is futile. If you show me something, and then tell me to do it, but then add on that it doesn't really exist in the first place, I can't gather any motivation to try solving it in the first place. I want to solve it mostly for the whole egotistical pleasure of outsmarting Ryuukishi in his own games, but also because I want to understand the satisfaction Battler will have after pushing through all these games to find the answer and his hopeful happy end.
And Author Theory to me, destroys the point of solving them. Even if I solve them, Battler can't solve something that doesn't exist, so I won't be able to understand him. Take a pillar out from under my motivation, and I'm a lot less likely to put the same amount of effort into it.
I definitely know where you're coming from on this, but... Umineko was always a fictional story, right?

With the Author Theory, now it's a fictional story within the context of another fictional story. Does that really make it any more fictional?

I think you can still care about Battler and cheer him on even if his struggles aren't "real" within the context of the Uminekoverse. Just pretend that Hachijou IS Ryukishi and it'll all turn out sort of fine.
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Old 2010-06-10, 19:56   Link #1992
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
But ironically, the only way to easily explain Umineko is to apply the Author Theory, which I'm not a personal fan of, or admit that magic must exist in some format.
Just not on October 4th and 5, 1986. That is the absolute.

To be honest, the Author theory would've been a real theory back in EP2 had I or the various other people who had the same thoughts had the guts to present it. 8) But it probably would've been shot down (as it did with my friends) as 'too weird' or 'that's so lame!' or 'not enough evidence.' Back then the theory was so incomplete that it really was all those three things.

But once EP6 came out, and with the hints along the way I would daresay that it's not really that kind of theory any more. It's the kind of theory that the episodes had been telling us over and over again. At least the core concept that someone had to have written the stories and not the particulars and added on consequences that we've been discussing.


I want to note that these particulars and consequences are still up for speculation. For example, just because we say the stories has an author doesn't mean Hachijou is telling the truth. In fact, if you look at the styles of the games, I'm sure we've all see just how EP5 and 6 are messed up.

Maybe the surprise for EP7 will be that she will be exposed as a 'hack writer' who was responsible for the rather lacking EP5 and 6. And yes, she may know some the truth and can give us some hints but ultimately she doesn't know enough. EP3 and 4 may turn out to have been stolen by her but was really authored by Beatrice or yet another author named Beatrice (Beatrice of Legend vs. Moetrice?). And finally EP7 will be authored by someone called Berknastel.

… yes.. I don't like Hachijou or Featherine. 8) I suspect she's another surprise villain, but an incompetent one.

EDIT: Oh yah, the Author theory is really a theory borne from observation of the clues left by Ryukishi... like following a trail of bread crumbs. So... I've been wondering if the Author theory is one big psyche by Ryukishi. Maybe this is leading us down a dangerous path somehow?
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Old 2010-06-10, 20:18   Link #1993
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I definitely know where you're coming from on this, but... Umineko was always a fictional story, right?

With the Author Theory, now it's a fictional story within the context of another fictional story. Does that really make it any more fictional?

I think you can still care about Battler and cheer him on even if his struggles aren't "real" within the context of the Uminekoverse. Just pretend that Hachijou IS Ryukishi and it'll all turn out sort of fine.
Or I could just try and explain Umineko from a perspective that both accepts and denies magic. That personally works for me.
Another problem with associating with Battler. Most of what we know of Battler, we see in the meta-world. Sure, we know about him from the gameboard's stories, but we get to see his real personality, as well as much better character growth and development. But if I remember correctly, Author Theory is that the stories of what happens on Rokkenjima are all just bottles floating in the sea, metaphorically or literally. So what is the Meta-world to the Author Theory? Fantasy elements, so it can be discarded? Then what about all this important character growth? To me, the Author Theory kills the Battler we know.
I know this might all sound like me complaining, but it's only recently that I've gained an understanding of what the Author Theory is (as I missed whatever introduction it had), so it's only now I can voice my problems with it.
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Old 2010-06-10, 20:24   Link #1994
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The Hachijou/Featherinne paradox is only a paradox if we assume Ange actually met her, and that she's really the person she claims to be. It's possible a "Hachijou Touya" does exist, but Ushiromiya Ange may never have actually met her. It's possible she did, but the Featherinne part didn't happen. Or it's possible it was all Meta-Ange, and Featherinne was trying to portray a "real world" scene that was, in fact, set in the magical meta-world.

Hey, wait a second. Does that sound like a big hint to anyone else? I'm just saying...
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Old 2010-06-10, 20:29   Link #1995
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The Hachijou/Featherinne paradox is only a paradox if we assume Ange actually met her, and that she's really the person she claims to be. It's possible a "Hachijou Touya" does exist, but Ushiromiya Ange may never have actually met her. It's possible she did, but the Featherinne part didn't happen. Or it's possible it was all Meta-Ange, and Featherinne was trying to portray a "real world" scene that was, in fact, set in the magical meta-world.

Hey, wait a second. Does that sound like a big hint to anyone else? I'm just saying...
A fantasy scene disguised as a reliable scene? It's clever, but nothing we haven't thought of before.
Still it's more evidence, and it means all unreliable scenes need to be put under careful scrutiny, which is why no one's particularily eager to test it out.
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Old 2010-06-10, 20:42   Link #1996
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A fantasy scene disguised as a reliable scene? It's clever, but nothing we haven't thought of before.
It's been there since the start of Chiru. I have no question it's a major factor in ep5-6. The question is whether this is a hint about things in ep1-4. But then again, we've always doubted even "real" scenes depicted out of Battler's view... but maybe this is more of a hint to the people who haven't gotten that far along yet.
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Old 2010-06-10, 21:11   Link #1997
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Or I could just try and explain Umineko from a perspective that both accepts and denies magic. That personally works for me.
Another problem with associating with Battler. Most of what we know of Battler, we see in the meta-world. Sure, we know about him from the gameboard's stories, but we get to see his real personality, as well as much better character growth and development. But if I remember correctly, Author Theory is that the stories of what happens on Rokkenjima are all just bottles floating in the sea, metaphorically or literally. So what is the Meta-world to the Author Theory? Fantasy elements, so it can be discarded? Then what about all this important character growth? To me, the Author Theory kills the Battler we know.
I know this might all sound like me complaining, but it's only recently that I've gained an understanding of what the Author Theory is (as I missed whatever introduction it had), so it's only now I can voice my problems with it.
I kind of take a neutral look on things so I could really go either way. Author theory seems to imply to me that at the end most of the people on the island are going to be dead with maybe a few survivors. Which I actually don't have a huge problem with. To be honest though I think a variation of Kakera theory could work. The thing Higurashi and Umineko have in common is that both of them have characters that break the fourth wall. K1 even jokes with Rika about how if she fails she can just write a new chapter. He also goes on a rant about how he's the "original main character" and he'll destroy the script. In Umineko Erika and Battler talk about mystery novels inside a mystery novel, and Erika talks to people who shouldn't exist.

I don't think how you interpret the Umineko Universe is really the problem this time, and I really don't think it really solves much of anything other than giving us an interesting explanation for how the stories are written, which even in Higurashi was kind of a moot point.
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Old 2010-06-10, 21:32   Link #1998
Kaisos Erranon
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Or I could just try and explain Umineko from a perspective that both accepts and denies magic. That personally works for me.
What, then, of all that talk about NOT accepting the witch, over and over again, ad infinitum?

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Maybe the surprise for EP7 will be that she will be exposed as a 'hack writer' who was responsible for the rather lacking EP5 and 6.
God I'd love this. I'd love this so much. Ryukishi would be my hero if sucking for two episodes straight was his plan all along.

It won't happen, though.

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… yes.. I don't like Hachijou or Featherine. 8) I suspect she's another surprise villain, but an incompetent one.
Doesn't the Hidden Tea Party in Ep6 put her in a villainous light already...?

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EDIT: Oh yah, the Author theory is really a theory borne from observation of the clues left by Ryukishi... like following a trail of bread crumbs. So... I've been wondering if the Author theory is one big psyche by Ryukishi. Maybe this is leading us down a dangerous path somehow?
I'd trust the bread crumb trails more than the giant flashing neon sign saying GO THERE, if you get my meaning.
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Old 2010-06-10, 21:54   Link #1999
Raiza Sunozaki
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What, then, of all that talk about NOT accepting the witch, over and over again, ad infinitum?
While being a little vague on what, Battler is shown to have some regret about certain things after he realizes the truth. More so, he accepts the position of Game Master after this. Why would he accept the position of a witch when he himself wants to deny them? Because he doesn't. He realizes himself that witches cannot be denied by others. Beato herself only died after surrendering.
Even more, he wants to revive her throughout Episode 6? Why? Because he wants to deny her with his own logic? Some how I doubt Battler's pride is that great.
I see it as him wanting to show her that her effort had not gone to waste, that all the trouble he put her through as he unelegantly trampled his way through her games was not pointless. That he understood her, and wanted to fufill the broken promise he made six years ago.
Maybe I just like cheesy stories, but this is how I see it.
As well, from before Battler even said he wanted to deny witches, Ryuukishi introduced this series to us as a fantasy. True, it was because he was daring us to prove him wrong and show that Umineko was a mystery, but wouldn't it be a real troll if he was just being honest the entire time, that Umineko is a fantasy? Sure, might not go over so well with some people, but it would be amusing.
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Old 2010-06-11, 03:08   Link #2000
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He already had us accepting magic and witches any time we used a red truth to prove or deny a theory. That was the true North Wind and the Sun Strategy.
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