AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-06-20, 21:06   Link #2121
Sentou
Ace Detective
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MIA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Nope that's my theory also and nobody has shot it down yet. Some people think the mothers day TIP debunks it, but I didn't feel that way when I read it.
Well, that TIP actually helped me in a regard. In the tip, Natsuhi holds in her hand a newborn Jessica That's true. But also in the tip Jessica gets "blessed" by a noble being who "transcended humanity"

I propose that this being is Featherine, who is also Asumu.
Sentou is offline  
Old 2010-06-20, 21:27   Link #2122
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Why do you think that scene took place in the metaworld? Meta-Battler was shown to be in the chapel getting married to Erika at the time. Meanwhile, Battler's flailing was linked to a noise that was heard on the game board, and he was rescued by Kanon on the magic layer. So shouldn't we interpret that whole performance in the guest room as a magic layer scene?
It doesn't work that way. Magic layer scenes can only happen inside a game. But as you said the game master at that time was not able to progress the story.

About the metaworld, we know it isn't just a single world, the concept of metaworld includes infinite different worlds, as the scene with Lambda and Bern in that astronomically numbered Kakera suggests.

I actually don't fully understand how this metaworld mess works, but I can at least tell you what's part of the game and what it doesn't.

The scenes where we see Zepar, Furfur and the the various contestant inside that metaroom, for instance, was not part of the game.

What were part of the game were the scenes where we see the various contestants performing the murders. which was obviously a separated layer.

Basically the game needs to be in Rokkenjima, it is created for the detective to see it, and has absolutely no meaning if the detective isn't there watching it. So much that if the detective decides that he's seen enough the game just freezes like we've seen in EP5.

Now we know that the scenes in the games can be faked, because we know there is a Game Master that narrates the whole story and can alter the truth.

But about the meta world? We have nothing of the sort. Would a lie in the metaworld be even bound to the rules that work in the game? Certainly knox rules do not work there!

And does it even make sense for the existence of a lie in the metaworld? I mean in the game we know that "as per rules" the story needs to be tied to some real world parameters. But the metaworld isn't real to begin with, the whole concept of genius Battler becomes kinda ridiculous when you get to the part that "it's a story created by Featherinne". in that case Battler isn't a genius at all, it's just a soulless character in a plot designed by an author.

You see the problem? Either the metaworld exists "per se" in some kind of plane of existence, and in that case we are seeing it through the "eyes of God" (no lies allowed), or the metaworld is just a fictional story created by an earthly author, and in that case the Battler described is fictional, he can't think and he can't be a genius (the real genius would be the author).

Lies have sense in a world where there's a truth to be covered, but lying in a world devoid of any truth, it's as meaningless as lying inside your dreams. The "lie" of your dreams is the "reality" of your dreams.

I don't really know what the hell Ryuukishi is thinking but if he decided to lie even in the metaworld, then he really messed it up.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2010-06-20, 21:36   Link #2123
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Yet the detective claims to have seen something that we don't get to see and that, apparently, the game master doesn't either. How does that work?
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline  
Old 2010-06-20, 21:38   Link #2124
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Kanon is Beatrice
There are plenty of hints that Kanon is a girl if you're willing to look for them.

This is one twist I'd definitely get behind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
When Kaisos mentioned the theory that Shannon's real name was Erika Ushiromiya I immediately thought of this theory Erika Ushiromiya dresses up as the two servants we know and love. Neither of whom actually exist. In that way both theories could be true in a sense.
So basically exactly like chrono's "Sayo" deal except with "Erika Ushiromiya" instead?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
*snip*
You're completely missing the point: Piece-Battler's struggles inside the guestroom are comparable to, say, Beatrice's resurrection of Shannon in Ep3. That is, a magical (fake) scene on the gameboard designed to convince the detective of a certain "fact". In Ep3, this was "Beatrice's redemption"; in Ep6, it was "Battler's failure". The first didn't turn out to be true. Why should the second?

Furthermore, before you say anything else about Meta-Battler being unable to progress the story (as he's trapped in an Evil Wedding Ceremony) well, like the TIPS say, he "now exists on a plane higher than all others".

Meta-Meta-Battler?

Ah, and perhaps one final bit of evidence towards Genius Battler... Zepar and Furfur are Battler's furniture, correct? Why, then, are they running that wedding ceremony?
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is online now  
Old 2010-06-20, 21:39   Link #2125
Sentou
Ace Detective
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MIA
There is one thing that bothers me about episode 6.

At the end of the episode, Shannon seems shocked that Kanon did not tell Jessica something.

What do you think this something is? If it is Shkanon, well, I think episode 7 might be a bit rough for Jessica.

Anyone else know what I am talking about?
Sentou is offline  
Old 2010-06-20, 21:41   Link #2126
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
*snip*
Again, I'd prefer to believe that Kanon is a woman.
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is online now  
Old 2010-06-20, 21:45   Link #2127
Sentou
Ace Detective
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MIA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Again, I'd prefer to believe that Kanon is a woman.
I have no problem with er... ahem, "Kanon" yuri. However, Methinks that if Jessica were to find out that her love interest was Shannon and possibly the murderer, things would not end well.

Although that really always had been a problem with Shkanon, mainly, whenever Jessica comes into the equation.

As for the genius Battler theory - I love Battler. He's a nice guy. But in episode 6 he endures torture for a reason. I don't think he'd risk Beatrice even if he had a chance of her getting her memories back. Fortunately, things worked out for the best.
Sentou is offline  
Old 2010-06-20, 21:45   Link #2128
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
So basically exactly like chrono's "Sayo" deal except with "Erika Ushiromiya" instead?
Exactly like it yes. And that's why I didn't say it until now.
Judoh is offline  
Old 2010-06-20, 21:47   Link #2129
Shiro Kaisen
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The scenes where we see Zepar, Furfur and the the various contestant inside that metaroom, for instance, was not part of the game.

What were part of the game were the scenes where we see the various contestants performing the murders. which was obviously a separated layer.
Nope, those scenes were most definitely part of the game. It's the same as the scenes where we saw Beatrice, Ronove, and the others in a meta-world while the game was going on in 5. Beatrice calls herself a piece, for example. That meta-layer is part of the gameboard, so I don't see why Zepar and Furfur's isn't either.

Erika clearly sees all the scenes in which George and Shannon, Jessica and Kanon talk to each other and stuff. She even remarks on how BOOOOOORING they are. (she's right, by the way) And then she definitely sees the magical murders happen. Those scenes make no sense without the love duel in between. Zepar and Furfur are BATTLER's furniture. Piece-Battler hangs out with Zepar and Furfur, but BATTLER is clearly not locked in the room. The love duel clearly advances the themes that BATTLER is pushing throughout his game. So I don't see how the love duel isn't part of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
As for the genius Battler theory - I love Battler. He's a nice guy. But in episode 6 he endures torture for a reason. I don't think he'd risk Beatrice even if he had a chance of her getting her memories back. Fortunately, things worked out for the best.
It's a Kinzo roulette. High risk vs high reward. Considering Battler is Kinzo incarnate...
Shiro Kaisen is offline  
Old 2010-06-20, 21:53   Link #2130
Sentou
Ace Detective
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MIA
You know what? Ultimately, this theory doesn't have a huge effect on the gameboard. And I like to think good things about Battler. So, I'll acknowledge it.

Although, is Beatrice completely back to snuff? I know a miracle occurred, but Beatrice at the end still seemed to be a bit like Moetrice...
Sentou is offline  
Old 2010-06-20, 21:55   Link #2131
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
The actual effect on ep6 is irrelevant, it just explains Battler's potential motives and the trap BatBeato is setting for the other witches in ep7 and beyond. Whether Battler is a genius or screws up yet again really doesn't change the story, just why it happened.

I'm just sick of him always screwing everything up and want to believe he can do something awesome.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline  
Old 2010-06-20, 22:04   Link #2132
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
You know what? Ultimately, this theory doesn't have a huge effect on the gameboard. And I like to think good things about Battler. So, I'll acknowledge it.

Although, is Beatrice completely back to snuff? I know a miracle occurred, but Beatrice at the end still seemed to be a bit like Moetrice...
There is no nice way to ask this, but I'll try my best. Please, pretty please, stop using out of game reds. They're very obnoxious. Blue is fine. Red is just annoying though because there very few things we're 100% certain about.
Judoh is offline  
Old 2010-06-20, 22:07   Link #2133
Sentou
Ace Detective
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MIA
Oh, no worries, I won't use the red anymore. I'm like a kid given a BB gun, you gotta smack me sooner or later so I don't poke an eye out.
Sentou is offline  
Old 2010-06-20, 22:11   Link #2134
Shiro Kaisen
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Question on the seals, since we've gotten to a certain point where we can talk details.

If Shannon is Erika, how does she seal the room while being inside it? She's confirmed to be inside at the time of the sealing. The duct tape seals are referred to as "duct tape seals" several times, so I don't really think we can dismiss them as a meta construct.
Shiro Kaisen is offline  
Old 2010-06-20, 22:32   Link #2135
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Yet the detective claims to have seen something that we don't get to see and that, apparently, the game master doesn't either. How does that work?
Then explain me this Renall:

If Battler truly has all that deceptive power you suppose he has. Why couldn't he just deceive Beatrice?! Why he didn't just make Beatrice witness a whole fake game against an inexistent Erika? Wouldn't it be easier and more secure?
Rather than manipulating a real and dangerous Erika, I'd rather kick Erika from the game (and this we know that he can do it) and then create a fake one to use the way I want. If Beatrice is the only thing Battler cares about, then there's no need for anyone else beside Beatrice.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
You're completely missing the point: Piece-Battler's struggles inside the guestroom are comparable to, say, Beatrice's resurrection of Shannon in Ep3. That is, a magical (fake) scene on the gameboard designed to convince the detective of a certain "fact". In Ep3, this was "Beatrice's redemption"; in Ep6, it was "Battler's failure". The first didn't turn out to be true. Why should the second?

Furthermore, before you say anything else about Meta-Battler being unable to progress the story (as he's trapped in an Evil Wedding Ceremony) well, like the TIPS say, he "now exists on a plane higher than all others".

Meta-Meta-Battler?

Ah, and perhaps one final bit of evidence towards Genius Battler... Zepar and Furfur are Battler's furniture, correct? Why, then, are they running that wedding ceremony?
Zepar and Furfur are Battler's furntiture? Where was this stated?

And I don't get why you say I'm missing the point. I'm not missing the point. You say that those scenes are part of the game and I say they do not. You make comparisons and I don't think they are valid.

Fake game scenes needs to be told by a Game master to the detective. If it isn't so they are not game scenes. and the scenes that I'm talking about do not even make sense if they are part of the game.

We see them even before the logic error occurred. Are you trying to tell me that Battler showed Erika the foreshadowing of his logic error prisony long before Erika could execute his plan to trap Battler inside the logic error? How does that makes sense?

Quote:
Nope, those scenes were most definitely part of the game. It's the same as the scenes where we saw Beatrice, Ronove, and the others in a meta-world while the game was going on in 5. Beatrice calls herself a piece, for example. That meta-layer is part of the gameboard, so I don't see why Zepar and Furfur's isn't either.

Erika clearly sees all the scenes in which George and Shannon, Jessica and Kanon talk to each other and stuff. She even remarks on how BOOOOOORING they are
It think your facts aren't straight. That "booooring" part wasn't it after the introduction? We do see Zepar and Furfur there, but that's not what I was talking about. The metaroom had yet to appear at that point.

And why it can't be part of the game? Because it continues after Battle is taken out of commission.

So if Erika was witnessing the Zepar and Furfur scenes, and if those are part of the game, how come Erika doesn't wonder why the game is still going on?!
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2010-06-20, 22:36   Link #2136
tcaz2
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Nope, Erika DEFINITELY remarks several times about the Zepar/Furfur parts and the magic killings resulting from it.
tcaz2 is offline  
Old 2010-06-20, 22:38   Link #2137
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Are you totally sure that Erika comments scenes show in the metaroom?

Becaue I'm not telling that Erika doesn't know about Furfur and Zepar at all.
They do appear in the game.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2010-06-20, 22:39   Link #2138
Shiro Kaisen
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post

It think your facts aren't straight. That "booooring" part wasn't it after the introduction? We do see Zepar and Furfur there, but that's not what I was talking about. The metaroom had yet to appear at that point.

And why it can't be part of the game? Because it continues after Battle is taken out of commission.

So if Erika was witnessing the Zepar and Furfur scenes, and if those are part of the game, how come Erika doesn't wonder why the game is still going on?!
Way to cut my quote off partway.

The boring parts were Shannon and George, Kanon and Jessica's love scenes on the gameboard. The meta-room appears right after those scenes, when Kanon and Shannon take out their brooch pieces. This is still in the middle of the same scene. They're still having the same conversation. Wouldn't Erika see them take out those pieces, see the shine that is described, and then what happens next? They appear in the meta room right after. If Erika didn't see that, wouldn't she be really, really confused? The scenes after wouldn't make sense at all.
Shiro Kaisen is offline  
Old 2010-06-20, 22:47   Link #2139
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Then explain me this Renall:

If Battler truly has all that deceptive power you suppose he has. Why couldn't he just deceive Beatrice?! Why he didn't just make Beatrice witness a whole fake game against an inexistent Erika? Wouldn't it be easier and more secure?
Rather than manipulating a real and dangerous Erika, I'd rather kick Erika from the game (and this we know that he can do it) and then create a fake one to use the way I want. If Beatrice is the only thing Battler cares about, then there's no need for anyone else beside Beatrice.
I suppose he could do that, but it makes the story less interesting. The whole Genius Battler thing enhances ep6's meta-world story rather than making it "Well, I guess Battler screwed up again!"

Erika is apparently destroyed somehow at the end of the game, so there might be some additional benefit to doing it for real. There's also the possibility Bern and Lambda would crash the party.

The slippery slope argument doesn't really work to criticize it.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline  
Old 2010-06-20, 22:47   Link #2140
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
@ Shiro Kaisen

Wait at this point I need you to quote, because the way I remember it, the first time we see the metaroom as soon as it finishes we see Erika and Dlanor in the guesthouse room.

The part you mention where Erika comments the game should be before the metaroom scenes.

@ Renall

So your point is that Battler didn't make the best possible choice because "else it wasn't interesting", and since he concocted a needlessly complicated plot, he's a genius?


and what's with that slippery slope argument thing? Where my argument was as slippery slope?
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:36.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.