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Old 2010-07-05, 17:25   Link #2221
Jan-Poo
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I've reread that part recently... and I don't remember that... maybe something I missed? But I doubt...

Quote:
Ah, but there is a huge difference. A constructed character communicated to others can live through them even when you no longer actually have any interest in it.

By basically becoming a meme.
that's what I believe the golden land is.
Everyone dies in the Rokkenjima incident, but then all of them are revived in the golden land. And in the golden land there is no need for any love test. Shannon and George, Battler and Beatrice, Jessica and Kanon. In the golden land all the three couples can succeed.
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Old 2010-07-05, 17:44   Link #2222
Judoh
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I think I'll try and attempt at an interpretation for the love trial and see if it works

Quote:
Banquet of the Golden Witch

Death His corpse was found in the mansion's parlor. The weapon is assumed to be a gun or a spear-type object.

In exchange for his soul, the witch gave 8 numbers.

07151129

If you say it, a small Golden Land will be opened.
My theory is that to be qualified to own the gold of the golden land you must sell 2 or 3 souls in exchange for that ten tons of gold IIRC Kinzo said he sold his soul to get the gold so is it really all that strange?
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Old 2010-07-05, 17:51   Link #2223
Jan-Poo
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there's no such a thing as a "full soul" that was lost in the love trial. Actually there isn't a soul that was lost at all. Simply those that were subhuman (Beatrice, Kanon, Shannon) for not having a full soul, battle each other to decide who will remain, that one will take the others' pieces of a whole soul so to reach a full soul, because only a full soul is entitled to love.

By no mean it was ever said that George is furniture, subhuman, or not possessing a full soul.
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Old 2010-07-05, 17:51   Link #2224
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But Eva and Battler were able to locate the gold without killing anyone, and unless someone was killing in retaliation for that, there was no particular reason for anyone to have had to die thereafter. That they did may not even be connected.
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Old 2010-07-05, 17:54   Link #2225
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If I were you I'd try to explain the love trial by imagining that Shannon and Kanon are fictional persona of two different real persons.

Trying to deny that those two aren't human is very difficult considering the circumstances.
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Old 2010-07-05, 18:11   Link #2226
m0h
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I think that now the whole thing about Kanon and Shannon being the same person can be elevated at the red truth status. Zepar and Furfur, the brooch are all pointing at the same idea.
About Shannon being also Beatrice , that's questionable... in my opinion it 3 PERSONALITIES are too much.

My theory:

Kumasawa = Virgilia ( really evident imho )
Genji = Ronove
Nanjo = Gaap ( the whole pitfall thing really sounds like drug to me. )
Shannon + Kannon = 1 person

And i have the strong feeling that Beatrice = Jessica.
Battler loved girls LIKE Jessica but not her specifically. That would be more than enough for Jessica to change into someone else, not necessarily PHISICALLY.
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Old 2010-07-05, 18:14   Link #2227
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I'm still banking on Shkanon being a big troll, because it just comes across as too obvious. It's not red until it's stated in red. Period.

I mean we could argue Gohda not being the killer is pretty much a certainty, and I'd guess it's more likely than not that such is true, but we can't really say that yet.
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Old 2010-07-05, 18:16   Link #2228
Judoh
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To be clear I never said you have kill someone to sell their soul. Kinzo was certainly alive after he found the gold. I didn't say George was subhuman either. I honestly don't where I was going with this the TIP just seemed to fit with the narrative.

If I were to choose people to be representing by partial souls thing though it'd be Shannon = Beatrice and George = Kanon.

That way it turns into some sort of love square between Shannon, George, Battler, and Jessica.
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Old 2010-07-05, 18:24   Link #2229
Jan-Poo
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wincest!

Well I guess we are stuck with either that or homosexuals, and both taboo have been broken before.

Incidentally George/Kanon would also explain how Kanon escaped from the closed room. And it also explains why George and Shannon marriage proposal means the end of Jessica love dreams. However it doesn't explains how Kanon could be in Rokkenjima when George wasn't around, or how both Kanon and George could be seen by Battler at the same time.

Quote:
I'm still banking on Shkanon being a big troll, because it just comes across as too obvious.
Ghosterika is also pretty obvious if you ask me. If there's a troll then it's either because both of them are false or because both of them are true.
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Old 2010-07-05, 18:26   Link #2230
m0h
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I'm still banking on Shkanon being a big troll, because it just comes across as too obvious. It's not red until it's stated in red. Period.
Didn't Ryukishi himself say that "Zepar and Furfur are the biggest hint until now" ?

We know for a fact that:

- One of them is a trap.
- They rappresent the two halves of the brooch
- Only the WHOLE BROOCH can guarantee LOVE.
- Last time the brooch was split in two piece by propouse, Beato didn't grant any wish. ( She made Battler belive she was trolling them, but i think she simple could not do it because Shannon and Kannon cannot both manifest themself together in front of Battler and George.
- The Kanon + Jessica couple was the less promising since the first game.
- Kanon is the youngest forniture made by Kinzo ( himself or the next head? )
- BATTLER made use of Kanon to escape the logic error. Best idea ever to corner Erika.
- A Kanon disguise or Shannon disguise can be possible just for them.
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Old 2010-07-05, 18:27   Link #2231
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I mean we could argue Gohda not being the killer is pretty much a certainty, and I'd guess it's more likely than not that such is true, but we can't really say that yet.
In particular about Gohda, I can quite readily imagine him snapping in terror and killing an assailant without realising he's actually dealing a mortal blow. And all that expertise with knives a good cook has to attain in his line of work would naturally work in his favour.
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Old 2010-07-05, 18:29   Link #2232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m0h View Post
Didn't Ryukishi himself say that "Zepar and Furfur are the biggest hint until now" ?
And you're trusting him?
Quote:
We know for a fact that:

- One of them is a trap.
- They rappresent the two halves of the brooch
- Only the WHOLE BROOCH can guarantee LOVE.
- Last time the brooch was split in two piece by propouse, Beato didn't grant any wish. ( She made Battler belive she was trolling them, but i think she simple could not do it because Shannon and Kannon cannot both manifest themself together in front of Battler and George.
- The Kanon + Jessica couple was the less promising since the first game.
- Kanon is the youngest forniture made by Kinzo ( himself or the next head? )
- BATTLER made use of Kanon to escape the logic error. Best idea ever to corner Erika.
- A Kanon disguise or Shannon disguise can be possible just for them.
Doesn't that all strike you as a bit too big of a hint?
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Old 2010-07-05, 18:31   Link #2233
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And since when TOO BIG OF A HINT is always wrong?
I'm pretty sure Ryukishi turned the chessboard over and thought we wuold not belive him.
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Old 2010-07-05, 18:32   Link #2234
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m0h View Post
Didn't Ryukishi himself say that "Zepar and Furfur are the biggest hint until now" ?
Actually I think he said something a long the lines of "there are a lot hints to what they say".

He also said he doesn't want to give away the answer so easily because he wants Umineko to be a thinking game, and just settling on Shkanon wouldn't accomplish that. So he's either going to leave it open with some hints for it and some hints against it or he's not going to address the issue at all and let the fans decide on what they like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Ghosterika is also pretty obvious if you ask me. If there's a troll then it's either because both of them are false or because both of them are true.
THIS.

I can't help but think this is the way he's going to do it. Choosing "either or" would get himself lynched by his own fans and he'd never sell a game again.
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Old 2010-07-05, 18:34   Link #2235
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and.. how can you define a good Enigmist/Liar ?

The one who always lie, or the one who mixes good lies with truth?
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Old 2010-07-05, 18:34   Link #2236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m0h View Post
And since when TOO BIG OF A HINT is always wrong?
From an author who has made a game of wordplay, misleading scenes, and cryptic interviews, I would say anything that looks like a free hint that explains some fundamental thing in the sixth episode of eight should be scrutinized like the Trojan Horse. Errr, than the Trojan Horse should have been.
Quote:
I'm pretty sure Ryukishi turned the chessboard over and thought we wuold not belive him.
That's certainly possible. I'm not saying it's not.

Most of us don't want to believe it because it would torpedo the story, but not everyone (whether they are of the opinion Shkanon is true or false) thinks that would occur.

Beware of geeks bearing gifts, I guess I'm saying.
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Old 2010-07-05, 18:36   Link #2237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
And you're trusting him?Doesn't that all strike you as a bit too big of a hint?
Hints get bigger as the series approaches the end. I mean, we aren't going to argue Ronove isn't Genji because they are both most trusted servants. If we are to believe that Zepur and Furfur are metaworld representations of real people on the island, I could think of no better than Shanon and Kanon.
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Old 2010-07-05, 18:37   Link #2238
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
And you're trusting him?
Ha! Sorry, I know you hate that but let me quote the game:

Quote:
"......It's a bit odd. ...I've always thought the mystery genre was a battle between the writer and the reader, ......but maybe it actually isn't."

"Yes. It's something which can't go on without a relation built on mutual trust, ......a relationship with love."
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Old 2010-07-05, 18:38   Link #2239
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Yeah okay so I'll just fall back to the old never-countered standby of it doesn't actually answer anything. That I suppose could work in its favor since revealing it at this stage doesn't affect anything because it doesn't provide any actual answers or explanations.

But it's kind of the big difference between that and other things. The Genji/Ronove and Kumasawa/Virgilia things remain largely inconsequential since so little is developed of their "vessels." Even if true, what exactly does Shkanon do for us?

EDIT: If you think "trust" between author and reader in a damn mystery means taking what the author says at face value, you're the one who isn't trusting them. You have to trust the writer to tell you lies knowing you're going to be able to see through them to the truth.

Just like you trust the magician is going to trick you, but you let him do it, because that's entertainment.
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2010-07-05, 18:38   Link #2240
m0h
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Actually I think he said something a long the lines of "there are a lot hints to what they say".
To me it fits perfectly the concept that every servant ( except Godha, who looks suspiciusly innocent ) has a meta counterpart.
Zepar and Furfur fit perfectly as the Shannon/Kannon meta counterpart.

What they say probably gives hints about motives, the whydunnit
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