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Old 2010-07-05, 22:44   Link #2301
Smeckledorf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
Well, she says it herself, Shannon is her best friend. She is shown to talk about her issues with Shannon, and generally be very close with Shannon. And she is in love with Kanon. If she knew them for say, 5 months, sure, I could see that, but she's been friends with Shannon for the vast majority of her life. That day six years ago, the day that ties Battler so closely to Shannon, Jessica was also there. For Jessica not to know, her so-called best friendship with Shannon has to be a lie. There is a three year time space that Shannon and Kanon both exist on the island, and Jessica has school, true, but she doesn't go to a bordering school. She wasn't on a vacation in Europe. She lives on the island. The only REASONABLE explanation for Jessica to not know is this:She has a shallow relationship with Kanon and Shannon.

Basically, half the things we've been told about her is a lie. I can't really accept that.
1. Her school is not on the island.

2. Assuming Shkanon is right, we have one body doing work for two servants.
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Old 2010-07-05, 22:50   Link #2302
Jan-Poo
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Well, then it's pointless to have this discussion, because I am critical of what I read and I believe the author wants me to be critical of what he's written.
Let me clarify one thing. I'm not trying to make you buy shkanon, it would be pointless, you will only believe it if I were to present you a bright red truth, and you know as well as I do that I cannot do that.
You asked me to give an explanation about what Shkanon explains. It doesn't need to convince you. An explanation you wanted and explanation I gave you. Now I won't let you start arguments on how "this explanation doesn't convince me" so that you can say later "no one gave me an explanation" because those are two completely different statements

Tell me how this explanation doesn't answer your question
Not how this explanation sounds bullshit to you


Quote:
I think it's very important and very poorly explained. People read DID and Shkanon into it and stop. They don't think. They don't assume their position is false and ask what other things it could mean.
So if someone finds the truth he stopped thinking? Then Battler stopped thinking as well. The thought that there must be something better than that is your personal opinion, do you realize it?

Quote:
What the hell is this? You most certainly do need to prove all of this. It's the same thing cronotrig pitched to me, and it's based heavily on supposition and conjecture. By no means is your interpretation of the nature, importance, or relevance of "furniture" status fact. That is part of the Shkanon cult.
When I said I don't need to prove this point I meant "I don't need to prove that Beatrice doesn't consider herself the same person as the original person". And you say that you try do understand me? I'm wasting my time explaining the obvious.

Quote:
The act of Beatrice's creation as narrated in ep6 is deliberate. It is not an accident. It is not a persona "arising." It is a persona created. Why, then, is it not simpler to believe that whoever "Beatrice" is considers the Beatrice persona a conscious facade? Why is a conflict of personalities necessary? How does it make the story better and more interesting?
Why they have to be conflicting personalities?! There wouldn't be any need for them to eliminate each other if it wasn't so.
Keep believing that the love trial was just bullshit but I can only think that you are doing a terrible mistake in doing so.

And I never said that Beatrice was created by accident. And no it can't be a facade. A facade wouldn't have half the soul of the original host. The split makes them on the very same ground. Keep thinking that it's all bullshit what that person said, but I don't. You are making a terrible mistake.

Quote:
I'll tell you: It does not. It is godawful. It is bad mystery, bad fantasy, bad literature. I believe ryukishi is too competent a writer, from the body of evidence of the work he's already created, to do any such thing. If there were a considerably comprehensible and valid literary reason behind it, perhaps, but I don't think he's that good an author.
You must prove you are willing to accept that an answer exist to make my efforts worthwhile. But right now you just told me you already know the answer doesn't exist. So give me a reason why I should bother?

Quote:
The explanation has to also click for us, the readers. The rationale that Shkanon proposes for Battler's subsequent behavior makes no sense. Even if "Battler understands," if we don't, the work has failed to emotionally invest us.
Why do you think that shkanon is all there is to know? Why either shkanon is the answer to life the universe and everything or it's nothing?!
I don't need to prove that shkanon explain the most important thing about the gameboard to prove that it isn't true that shkanon doesn't explain crap. I just need to prove it explain something to prove your statement false.

About Bern
Yada yada. She's deceiving not a liar. I said it all. You can't see difference? You want to say that it's the same thing? I'm not going to follow you there.
And that's no reason to deny anything that Bern says. Really Bern said a lot of things and do you think the few stuff you mentioned amount to even 5% of all the things she said? If you can't make it at least 50% I guess that means there's a higher probability that taking a bern statement randomly you'll find a truth rather than a lie. In conclusion: Prove that in the particular cases that I mentioned she was lying.

Quote:
I have, many times. I will make this easy on you too: I don't want an explanation based on facts. Don't reference events or points. Assume your entire theory is true. Don't defend it. Just act like ep7 has come out and every word of it has been declared in red, and there is no longer any dispute as to the facts of your position anymore. And tell me the answer to any or all of the following:
Did you perhaps missed the fact that I said "single"?
If I start replying to all those questions I'll just double the points I'm debating. Most of them are repetition of what you asked me already and I'm answering already.

I can't believe that in order to deny the single statement that "shkanon doesn't explain anything" I need to write a poem. I repeat: I only need to prove that shkanon explains something in order to disprove your statement.
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Old 2010-07-05, 22:50   Link #2303
Sentou
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Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
1. Her school is not on the island.

2. Assuming Shkanon is right, we have one body doing work for two servants.
Yes, but she doesn't live at school, and she still has plenty of downtime. Weekends, vacations, more than enough time to leave no excuse for her to not interact with Shannon and Kanon. In addition, you also ignore another fact about Jessica. Her parents keep her at home when they can, making her study quite often. To do such a thing, she has to be home. So I think with that in mind, the idea that school would prevent her from realizing that two people that she is close with are one and the same is quite ridiculous.

I mean, really, she HAS to have her relationships with Shannon and Kanon be a lie if the two are one and the same. Perhaps if she went on "Buisness trips" often like Rosa did, I could see where you are coming from, but since she's known Shanon for all her life, I can't buy your argument.
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Old 2010-07-05, 22:51   Link #2304
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
1. Her school is not on the island.
Okay I'll bite. Jessica like any other human being spends 1/3rd of her life sleeping (at least 8 hours a day). And assuming she has about 8 hours of school and about 2 hours of home work that's about 18 hours not being together every day not counting sundays, which is a day off in Japan.

She still has 52 hours left every week to figure out: "Hey! something is going on here! Maybe my best friend is trying to make me feel better by pretending to be my fake boyfriend that doesn't even really exist! I should do something about that..."
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Old 2010-07-05, 23:02   Link #2305
Renall
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Well, I'm sorry you refuse to do even the simplest thing I asked of you, Jan-Poo, and responded to all the other things and completely ignored the one part I clearly wanted you to answer. But thank you for making your perspective on the story absolutely clear. Since you only care about which theory is right, even at the expense of characterization, theme, artistic merit, or just about anything else that doesn't directly pertain to the text, I won't bother discussing why the text has any literary value. I apologize for wasting your time with something you do not care about. I just wish you could be honest with me that you don't care about the methodology I take to approach things and refuse to share your own with someone who, I admit, looks at it from a different approach.

I know we disagree, but I'm not being dishonest about wanting to listen. If someone is willing to step in and defend the literary necessity of Shkanon, please. By all means. Anyone at all. I don't care if you're just playing devil's advocate on it. Make me understand why this work needs this element to advance its point. I don't think, and I could be wrong, that you really care about that aspect of it. You just care that you think you have the answer which is factually correct. Is that really it? If you know the truth now, don't you have further to go with it? There's more to a story than the narrative, isn't there?

However, I will continue to talk about my perspective because I do believe it matters, and that colors which theories I am willing to entertain. I don't deny you could be right, since that seems to be the only thing you want to hear from me. But if you are right... well I'm sorry, I wasted my time reading something that isn't really any good. I'll acknowledge you were factually correct when that time comes, but it's not going to be the thing that disappoints me about the revelation. It will be because the work is void of anything to say to me about love, human nature, evil, deception, theatrics, genres, or the role of the author... you know, all those themes that keep coming up in the text.

Those questions are still open to you, or to anyone else. Doesn't even have to be Shkanon that you believe in. I'm actually quite interested in people's opinions on the thematic purpose to this story and why their pet theory enhances it.
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Old 2010-07-05, 23:07   Link #2306
Smeckledorf
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Okay I'll bite. Jessica like any other human being spends 1/3rd of her life sleeping (at least 8 hours a day). And assuming she has about 8 hours of school and about 2 hours of home work that's about 18 hours not being together every day not counting sundays, which is a day off in Japan.

She still has 52 hours left every week to figure out: "Hey! something is going on here! Maybe my best friend is trying to make me feel better by pretending to be my fake boyfriend that doesn't even really exist! I should do something about that..."
You forgot one servant doing the work for two. So, yea I think it is entirely possible that Jessica doesn't spend enough time with Shanon or Kanon to figure this out.

This culprit has been methodical and careful enough to not have been caught murdering 15ish people, so you are going to take Jessica's 'sharpness' over the killer's brilliance. I think not.

Frankly, thinking this way will get us no where because it is a matter of opinion. No matter how much you say it is not, it is.
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Old 2010-07-05, 23:11   Link #2307
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True, true. We'll agree to disagree for now. But I hope we can reach a common ground on this area needing to be explained, in the very least?
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Old 2010-07-05, 23:13   Link #2308
Jan-Poo
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What is the simplest thing you asked me? If it was that simple why you couldn't make it in the form of a single question?

I'm doing my best to try to give the answer you want but in the sea of questions and points you made I can't see which is that very one you want me to answer the most.

from this last post you made maybe I can somehow imagine what it is. But am I really getting it?

I'll assume this question is:

Quote:
Make me understand why this work needs this element to advance its point.
But if it is... is it really what you expect? Then allow me to ask you if you can answer why this works needs "ghosterika" to advance its point? Why this work needs Kanon to be also called Kinzo to advance its point? Why this work needs shannontrice to advance it's point?

If you can answer these questions I am sure you can also answer it in the case of shkanon. After all the answer would be the same:
A story needs some kind of strange and unusual development to be interesting.
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Old 2010-07-05, 23:14   Link #2309
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
You forgot one servant doing the work for two. So, yea I think it is entirely possible that Jessica doesn't spend enough time with Shanon or Kanon to figure this out.
It wouldn't make any difference anyway. Since they essentially have 16 hours (during the night shift and during school) to finish that up so they can hang out when she's done with home work.

We'll agree to disagree though. All I wanted to point out is she has a lot more time than you think to figure it out. Even with school.
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Old 2010-07-05, 23:14   Link #2310
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Well then if it helps any he only saw it once so a disguise was only used once. It hasn't once appeared in any of the core arcs. So I'm thinking a Beatrice disguise is not one of the "core truths".
Seems I'm a bit late to this discussion, but...

In the forest of Rokkenjima, a hidden mansion called Kuwadorian exists. In 1967, in a hidden mansion on Rokkenjima, Beatrice existed as a human. It's very possible that Beatrice's old clothes still existed in Kuwadorian and could be used as a disguise.
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Old 2010-07-05, 23:20   Link #2311
Smeckledorf
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Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
True, true. We'll agree to disagree for now. But I hope we can reach a common ground on this area needing to be explained, in the very least?
I will agree that we both think differently of this matter.
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Old 2010-07-05, 23:22   Link #2312
Judoh
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Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
Seems I'm a bit late to this discussion, but...

In the forest of Rokkenjima, a hidden mansion called Kuwadorian exists. In 1967, in a hidden mansion on Rokkenjima, Beatrice existed as a human. It's very possible that Beatrice's old clothes still existed in Kuwadorian and could be used as a disguise.
That's not what I'm getting at though. The only time the disguise is really useful is with Battler's scene on the Balcony. Hypothetically you could call Knox's 9th on every other scene besides that and solve all of those scenes with somebody lying and nothing would change. (Maria has to lie about seeing Kinzo anyway if we beleive in the audio will theory) You wouldn't even really need a disguise outside that one scene where Battler is the detective and it falls under Knox's 7th (barely). And anyone can just claim it was far away and dark and he just didn't see it very well. She's not even really described in the narration as looking like her.
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Old 2010-07-05, 23:26   Link #2313
Sentou
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Well, isn't it Suit Beato that appears to Battler? All Sayo would have to do is use some of Jessica's old clothing, which would be nearby, right? The thought of her putting on new clothing next to the corpse of her deceased friend is rather disgusting, though.
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Old 2010-07-05, 23:27   Link #2314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
You forgot one servant doing the work for two. So, yea I think it is entirely possible that Jessica doesn't spend enough time with Shanon or Kanon to figure this out.

This culprit has been methodical and careful enough to not have been caught murdering 15ish people, so you are going to take Jessica's 'sharpness' over the killer's brilliance. I think not.
There is also the fact that only 2 servants work each day. The chances that both Kanon and Shannon would work on the same day are slightly slim. Since we know there are at least 3 or more other servants.
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Old 2010-07-05, 23:28   Link #2315
Smeckledorf
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Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
Well, isn't it Suit Beato that appears to Battler? All Sayo would have to do is use some of Jessica's old clothing, which would be nearby, right? The thought of her putting on new clothing next to the corpse of her deceased friend is rather disgusting, though.
So is the thought of heads being smashed and people being disemboweled.
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Old 2010-07-05, 23:28   Link #2316
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
That's not what I'm getting at though. The only time the disguise is really useful is with Battler's scene on the Balcony. Hypothetically you could call Knox's 9th on every other scene besides that and solve all of those scenes with somebody lying. (Maria has to lie about seeing Kinzo anyway if we beleive in the audio will theory) You wouldn't even really need a disguise outside that one scene where Battler is the detective and it falls under Knox's 7th (barely). And anyone can just claim it was far away and dark and he just didn't see it very well. She's not even really described in the narration as looking like her.
In that case, it's more likely it was Jessica's clothes, so there isn't even a need for it to be called a disguise. Especially if it really was Jessica with her blond hair, Battler could easily have been fooled.

Though you brought up an interesting point with Maria and Kinzo, I completely forgot about that.
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Old 2010-07-05, 23:29   Link #2317
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
There is also the fact that only 2 servants work each day. The chances that both Kanon and Shannon would work on the same day are slightly slim. Since we know there are at least 3 or more other servants.
That would still limit the amount of time they are available.
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Old 2010-07-05, 23:29   Link #2318
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
Well, isn't it Suit Beato that appears to Battler? All Sayo would have to do is use some of Jessica's old clothing, which would be nearby, right? The thought of her putting on new clothing next to the corpse of her deceased friend is rather disgusting, though.
Or rather... he could've just seen Jessica (since their clothes look similar) and since he just got a call from Beatrice after geting a call saying Jessica is dead the logical conclusion he'd come to is This person = the Beatrice on the phone. When really The person on the phone = Jessica.'

EDIT: oh crap Seagull beat me to it!
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Old 2010-07-05, 23:33   Link #2319
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Or rather... he could've just seen Jessica (since their clothes look similar) and since he just got a call from Beatrice after geting a call saying Jessica is dead the logical conclusion he'd come to is This person = the Beatrice on the phone. When really The person on the phone = Jessica.
I can't remember if suit Beatrice actually asked about Battler's sin, but didn't she? If so that would mean suit Beatrice is probably in on the murders.
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Old 2010-07-05, 23:33   Link #2320
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If someone is willing to step in and defend the literary necessity of Shkanon, please. By all means. Anyone at all. I don't care if you're just playing devil's advocate on it. Make me understand why this work needs this element to advance its point. I don't think, and I could be wrong, that you really care about that aspect of it. You just care that you think you have the answer which is factually correct. Is that really it? If you know the truth now, don't you have further to go with it? There's more to a story than the narrative, isn't there?
Well, I don't know if this is what you're asking, but it's looking increasingly probably that a large component of Umineko's core is a cautionary tale about being unfaithful in love. Let's see what we've got:

Rudolf with Asumu and Kyrie. Considering he's been holding on to some secret since EP1, there's a good chance there's going to be some major story impact here, although it's unclear what.

Maria's father. Just look at the wonderful family situation caused by Rosa's bitterness over her loss.

Beatrice leaving Kinzo behind(?). Also Kinzo loving Beatrice instead of his wife. Just look at how much of a wreck the guy is. And I don't mean after he dies.

Battler getting Shannon's hopes up 6 years ago. Several people hypothesize this is Battler's sin, and there's no need to explain how major that is.

And finally, we might have Shkanontrice unable to decide between George, Jessica, and Battler.

If this is correct, then motive will be impossible to explain without the thematic element of unfaithfulness in love, in which case the concept of furniture and the truth behind Shkanon are central points to the narrative itself.
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