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Old 2010-07-05, 23:35   Link #2321
Sentou
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Well, Balcony Beato seemed quite knowledgeable about Kinzo and seemed to have an intimate connection with Meta-Beato. If it was Jessica, well, I don't quite know the implications of that.
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Old 2010-07-05, 23:36   Link #2322
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Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
Well, Balcony Beato seemed quite knowledgeable about Kinzo and seemed to have an intimate connection with Meta-Beato. If it was Jessica, well, I don't quite know the implications of that.
Your talking about all them S&M jokes? Or the breaking the fourth wall? Yeah I don't want to go there really... It'd be the same with Shannon too though wouldn't it?
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Old 2010-07-05, 23:38   Link #2323
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
What is the simplest thing you asked me? If it was that simple why you couldn't make it in the form of a single question?
I did say "any or all." You don't need to answer every single one at once to get me to understand where you're coming from thematically. You don't even want to look at the questions though, that much is clear.
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But if it is... is it really what you expect? Then allow me to ask you if you can answer why this works needs "ghosterika" to advance its point? Why this work needs Kanon to be also called Kinzo to advance its point? Why this work needs shannontrice to advance it's point?
This is a dodge, since you refuse to do the same for me, but alright, I'll play your game, because this is a game I can play:

"Ghost" Erika

The thematic purpose of the first arc of Umineko was to introduce the mystery-lover to fantasy and deconstruct the supposed incompatibility of both genres. The reader is presented with "Beatrice," a witch with fantastic powers who is engaging in a magic ritual. Alongside Battler, we are led to reject the fantasy, believing that it is covering up a truth that lies behind it. We come to believe alongside Battler that if we can just find an explanation, any explanation, we can disengage mystery from fantasy and find truth within.

Chiru challenges our expectations of this by appearing to do exactly that, providing us with an "answer" and reducing Beatrice-the-witch to the role of a delusional woman's boogeyman. Instead, the reader is presented with "Erika," a detective with fantastic powers who is engaging in a criminal investigation. Alongside Battler, we are led to reject our previous understanding, realizing first that the fantasy does contain some hint of the truth, and second that a truth which "works" is not a truth which is necessarily right. Battler can only fight a false "truth" with one of his own, as he is unprepared.

As Beatrice fades away when we reject and "kill" her with our theories, Erika fades away when we reject that a simple truth that happens not to contradict our bare observations is completely insufficient for our purposes. Just as embracing the witch and giving in to happy lies (your family was slaughtered by a witch, not murdered by one or more of their own) is wrong, so is going to any length to blame someone.

It's better that we not know and admit to our ignorance than declare ourselves Witches of Truth. Making ourselves vulnerable to mistakes (Battler's Logic Error) allows us the miracle of understanding what it all means (Beatrice's Resurrection). But that won't satisfy everyone; some people demand a truth be settled (Bernkastel).

Kanon = Kinzo

Here we're dealing with elements of family and intrigue, and harkening back to old mystery tales where a servant was a long-lost heir or other unexpected individual. We are also led to play with the notion of the reliability of red text, realizing that what is literally true may defy our expectations if more than one answer is available.

Because Erika believes that she is working toward a single truth, she does not realize that one truth may be itself applicable in multiple situations. Battler cannot afford to correct her thinking until he accomplishes his own objectives. Thus, she leaves a loophole which Battler should have recognized (given his own ordeal in ep4) and which Beatrice for some reason does.

Realizing the relationship, that Kanon and Shannon are not mere furniture, allows their existence as entities with a stake in the storyline to emerge. They are peripheral players who emerge as entities we could never have expected, and the story is enriched by the prospects. But because we are introduced to their characters through the personas they wear dressed in fantasy, we fail to realize we've been looking bald-faced at their identities and motivations all along. But even as we do that, we aren't sure... which one is "good?" Which one is "evil?" Can we really apply those labels? And what if their conflict is actually the opportunity that the true mastermind is exploiting, and not the root cause of the events?

Shannontrice

This is about becoming "human." Or rather, understanding what one's own humanity means through the transformative power of imagination. Shannon has lived most of her life as a servant, someone on the outside. She had a chance to experience a deeper relationship (not necessarily a romance, but something more than a mere interaction) with Battler, but she lost it because she didn't really understand where she was going with it.

Literature and imagination allow her to understand how other people think. They allow her to imagine what other people are like. And they allow her to understand the man nobody else can: Kinzo. Through understanding Kinzo's passions, Shannon begins to understand that she has her own, and that she's free to express them... but there remains something she still has to do.

To that end, she inherits the mantle of the Golden Witch, the obsession of her former master. From her experience with Battler she will cloak herself in theatrics for whatever objective she has, and with it she will finally assert herself.

Ironically, of course, she is doing this not as Sayo, not as Shannon, but as Beatrice. And now we're left with the conundrum brought up through Ange, Featherinne, and ep6 Battler: Can other people as readily understand who we are through these presentations we put on as we understand ourselves in writing and staging them? If we don't have the courage to reach out to someone directly, how can we be sure they'll understand when we couch it in metaphor and dress it up with mysteries and fantasy and romance? Why can't we "just say it," as Battler wondered? Why is it more valuable to say something in story than it is to be direct? And... is it more valuable? Is there some value in Battler's bold honesty? Theatrics can't save the Ushiromiya family. But maybe honesty can.
Quote:
If you can answer these questions I am sure you can also answer it in the case of shkanon. After all the answer would be the same:
A story needs some kind of strange and unusual development to be interesting.
[/quote]No. There are all sorts of thematic reasons.

And even if that were true, every one raises the same inevitable question: Why this one?

That's certainly not a question I'm equipped to answer for sure. There are many good ones. I could be convinced Shkanon is one of them, but for now, I'm not.
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Old 2010-07-05, 23:41   Link #2324
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By the way, what is the Ghosterika theory anyway? I keep hearing it brought up and missed it when it was introduced.
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Old 2010-07-05, 23:41   Link #2325
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It is a theory which says Erika doesn't exist on the actual Rokkenjima. She is a meta only character.
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Old 2010-07-05, 23:42   Link #2326
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Originally Posted by k//eternal View Post
By the way, what is the Ghosterika theory anyway? I keep hearing it brought up and missed it when it was introduced.
That "Furudo Erika" exists solely as a meta-world piece, and "Erika" on the board is a false representation of another person, much like Beatrice was in ep2-4. More or less.
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Old 2010-07-05, 23:46   Link #2327
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Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
Well, Balcony Beato seemed quite knowledgeable about Kinzo and seemed to have an intimate connection with Meta-Beato. If it was Jessica, well, I don't quite know the implications of that.
After Battler said he couldn't remember his sin, Dress-Beatrice took over for Suit-Beatrice. What would the significance of that be if they were the same person? If they were the same person, they should have used the dress-disguise to fool Battler, but Suit-Beatrice was the one who talked to him, while Dress-Beatrice only showed up inside the study. So they aren't the same person. But both know about the sin Battler committed. That's probably really important.
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Old 2010-07-05, 23:51   Link #2328
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Oh, a random thought on Suit-Beato and Dress-Beato that I had previously. What if the previous Beato was actually composed of two entities similar to Moetrice and Beatonee, and contrary to belief, they never merged at all?

Pure meta stuff, but it would explain what was going on in EP4 to some degree.
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Old 2010-07-05, 23:55   Link #2329
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Originally Posted by k//eternal View Post
Oh, a random thought on Suit-Beato and Dress-Beato that I had previously. What if the previous Beato was actually composed of two entities similar to Moetrice and Beatonee, and contrary to belief, they never merged at all?

Pure meta stuff, but it would explain what was going on in EP4 to some degree.
I wondered if those two were actually different people. However, we don't know how many people have seen dress Beatorice. Technically, we only know that one person has seen suit Beatorice.
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Old 2010-07-05, 23:58   Link #2330
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I see where you are going with this.

Well, if Jessica were also Beatrice, that certainly would clear up my issues with her role in Shkanontrice. But a solution to one problem begets other problems.

Still, yeah, I remember that scene. One Beatrice lays the other down to rest. I suppose rest in this case means the same as a shotgun blast to the face? Freaking loonies....

Judoh: Interestingly enough, some of the text to episode 7 mentioned girls in the plural saying without love it can't be seen(As in, the girls who said "Without love it can't be seen"). Perhaps this theory may have some potential.(I'm a fan of Shannontrice, personally)
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Old 2010-07-06, 00:02   Link #2331
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Here comes Doubletrice theory again...
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Old 2010-07-06, 00:03   Link #2332
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Well, what if the other one essentially wants to die?

"I couldn't get him to remember, go ahead and kill me."

They could have agreed to it. Or even staked a wager on it. It could be very important to the two of them, if there are indeed two of them.
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Old 2010-07-06, 00:04   Link #2333
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
I see where you are going with this.

Well, if Jessica were also Beatrice, that certainly would clear up my issues with her role in Shkanontrice. But a solution to one problem begets other problems.

Still, yeah, I remember that scene. One Beatrice lays the other down to rest. I suppose rest in this case means the same as a shotgun blast to the face? Freaking loonies....
The next problem would be how Dress-Beatrice (probably Shannon) knows about Jessica's call to Battler. Because Battler found her corpse in her room, along with the phone off the hook. An easy solution is that Shannon knew about Jessica's call to Battler. So is this a conspiracy between the two of them?
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Old 2010-07-06, 00:10   Link #2334
Sentou
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Well, in episode 4, Jessica knew she was going to die, and yet despite this fact, despite being portrayed as an upstanding person, lied to Battler anyways. Her motivation for her APPARENTLY malicious act in episode 4 had to be complex in some manner.

Could have been a Last, desperate gambit by Jessica to at least save some lives.

Episode 4, moreso than episode one, has the core nature of the series in it. I must say, Doubletrice does provide one of the better answers for it specifically than any other. Still, I don't know. Jessica certainly doesn't seem too agreeable with the whole "Mass Murder for vague if not nonsensical reasons" thing.
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Old 2010-07-06, 00:17   Link #2335
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What your stumbling upon is the whole basis behind the Doubletrice theory. That there being two Beatrices in this scene about his sin in EP4, and the Older and younger sis Beatrice's in EP6. As well as the whole "OMG Jessica has FISTS OF FIRE" so she could be the Kinzo burner thing.

All I want to say is F&%$ing MOON CHAN!!! Because that's what it's going to end up being in the end. A Jessica mastermind theory. Unless you use Kanon/Shannon variation.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-07-06 at 00:32.
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Old 2010-07-06, 00:21   Link #2336
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I don't see why a Doubletrice theory requires Jessica be involved at all. She's a possible candidate, sure, but that doesn't mean "Beatrice" is who we think she is. Hell, half the female cast and possibly a male or two could be a "Beatrice."
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Old 2010-07-06, 00:24   Link #2337
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Not sure If I remember the metaphor correctly. I think about the phone calls there was a running Joke about Jessica being Batman and Kyrie being Harvey Dent (two face) from that Dark Knight movie. Or was it the other way around? Either way the common consensus is that Jessica is a huge troll under this theory. Like you say it's not "required", but it's the most common narrative.
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Old 2010-07-06, 00:24   Link #2338
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Jessica Mastermind? Woah, ok, dropping this line of thought. Jessica's too much of a good guy to be a murderer. But she could have dressed up as Beato and/or lied to Battler with a benevolent purpose.

You find out that your best friend is your boyfriend and freaking crazy obsessed with Battler. Having lived on the island, you know a thing or two about Beatrice and thus can emulate her decently. Knowing from your best friend's crazy rants that she is fixated on a sin, you make one desperate effort to bring order to the island. You dress up as Beato, ask Battler to remember his sin, he talks about his parents, you say that's not it(Having no idea what it actually is will make it rather difficult for you to provoke him to remember), things go south, friend goes crazy, you decide it's useless, it's all useless, and die. I really don't think Jessica would lie unless it had a good purpose to it.

Edit: Come to think off it, she is confirmed for lying on the phone in the very least. But I still maintain that she would only do such a thing to help save the day. Granted, how Battler would be saved by being told magic exists is beyond me, but still...
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Old 2010-07-06, 00:26   Link #2339
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
What your stumbling upon is the whole basis behind the Doubletrice theory. That there being two Beatrices in this scene about his sin in EP4, and the Older and younger sis Beatrice's in EP6. As well as the whole "OMG Jessica has FISTS OF FIRE" so she could be the Kinzo burner thing.

All I want to say is F&%$ ing MOON CHAN!!! Because that's what it's going to end up being in the end. A Jessica mastermind theory. Unless you use Kanon/Shannon variation.
I'm pretty sure EP4 can only be solved with a doubletrice theory. Just look at where everyone's corpses ended up. At the end of EP4 only Battler was alive, it was said so in red. The last person Battler saw was Suit-Beatrice. So how did she die? Suicide? Battler found each person's corpses far away from each other, both Shannon and Jessica shot in the head.

The only solution I can think of is that Shannon killed Jessica, and asked Maria to kill her and place the stakes in everyone. After that Maria died of poison that Shannon gave Maria earlier.
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Old 2010-07-06, 00:27   Link #2340
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Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
Jessica Mastermind? Woah, ok, dropping this line of thought. Jessica's too much of a good guy to be a murderer. But she could have dressed up as Beato and/or lied to Battler with a benevolent purpose.
Many people think it is possible that Jessica is a killer. Most good guys don't put on brass knuckles to punch their friends, anyways. I don't think a single person can be written off as a culprit unless it was said so in red.

@SeagullCrazy: If I remember correctly, Battler wasn't able to get in the mansion immediately after suit Beatrice left. So, there was an amount of time between those two events to kill people and for people to be killed. My only problem, with any theory, is almost everyone was killed with a gun.
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