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Old 2010-07-13, 17:46   Link #3061
Auria
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Random comment again:

Who else missed Battler's dame da zenzen dame [...] / it's useless in this episode =(
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Old 2010-07-13, 17:48   Link #3062
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
I wouldn't've said so. If Shkannon is no longer Kanon and is now Shannon, you could quite legitimately say that "Kanon is not here".

And Kanon would still exist there even if he killed himself in the closet.
But Erika sees nothing in the closet. So does she somehow instantly go blind?... Mind you, Ghost-Erika is blind and doesn't work otherwise... Could it be that both Ghost-Erika and Shkanontrice are true?
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Old 2010-07-13, 17:51   Link #3063
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
You can't make a piece do things they aren't capable of. Therefore, there must have been a logical reason for all actions taken by characters.
They are quite capable of performing those actions, they just do those without any explainable reason.

Actually Erika does things that shouldn't be possible for a girl like her. The murder of the five people in EP6 and the sealing of all the windows of the guesthouse in EP5 defy common sense.
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Old 2010-07-13, 17:52   Link #3064
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
But Erika sees nothing in the closet. So does she somehow instantly go blind?... Mind you, Ghost-Erika is blind and doesn't work otherwise... Could it be that both Ghost-Erika and Shkanontrice are true?
Oh, right. In which case, Shannon could be hiding under the bed, which she does not check at any point after the bathroom.
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Old 2010-07-13, 17:52   Link #3065
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
I wouldn't've said so. If Shkannon is no longer Kanon and is now Shannon, you could quite legitimately say that "Kanon is not here".
Just because Shannon is the one answering the door doesn't mean that Kanon suddenly vanishes from the house entirely.

Unless you are putting forth a personality does not exist unless it is in control. But then how would Shannon and Kanon ever talk to one another?
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Old 2010-07-13, 17:53   Link #3066
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
They are quite capable of performing those actions, they just do those without any explainable reason.

Actually Erika does things that shouldn't be possible for a girl like her. The murder of the five people in EP6 and the sealing of all the windows of the guesthouse in EP5 defy common sense.
Let's say they are possible for her. Are they in-character for Furudo Erika? I would submit that no, they aren't. They're possible for Meta-Erika, but just as Piece-Battler isn't Meta-Battler, Piece-Erika shouldn't be Meta-Erika either. Yet for all of ep6 Meta-Erika appears to be in control.
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Old 2010-07-13, 17:56   Link #3067
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Originally Posted by Sniesk View Post
I can accept it if you say she took Kanon personality, exited the window, entered the room and then reverted back. But the disguise also? He changed 2 times in like 5 minutes? What is she? A doppleganger?
It wasn't specified the time passed between the actions. So you could take for granted that Shannon had more than plenty of time to do so.
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Old 2010-07-13, 17:56   Link #3068
chronotrig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Let's say they are possible for her. Are they in-character for Furudo Erika? I would submit that no, they aren't. They're possible for Meta-Erika, but just as Piece-Battler isn't Meta-Battler, Piece-Erika shouldn't be Meta-Erika either. Yet for all of ep6 Meta-Erika appears to be in control.
I'd argue that all actions must be in character for the pieces, or at least possible for their character (as in, something that they'd be very unlikely to do but might have some logical reason for doing it that has nothing to do with the apparent reason. Also, Erika's meta-character is overlayed on top of her real character, so what we see can't always be trusted unless there are witnesses who remember it happening.

Actually, remind me if someone's said this before, but the most "totally out of character" thing that Erika is supposed to have done was crawl around on the walls of the guesthouse in EP5. ...Well, did Erika ever actually say that she sealed the outside of the windows?
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Old 2010-07-13, 17:56   Link #3069
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
Just because Shannon is the one answering the door doesn't mean that Kanon suddenly vanishes from the house entirely.

Unless you are putting forth a personality does not exist unless it is in control. But then how would Shannon and Kanon ever talk to one another?
Quite frankly, if this is not the case, then Shkannon solves pretty much nothing at all.

Well... we receive no guarentee that they do talk to each other... but they could do it indirectly through their thoughts and memories.
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Old 2010-07-13, 17:58   Link #3070
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I am not sure if this has been addressed, but for the Shkannon theory, wouldn't that mean there are 16 people + 1 for Erika on the island... but at the end of the game, she confirms in red that she is the 18th guest... meaning 1 more unspecified person is on the island?
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Old 2010-07-13, 17:59   Link #3071
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But then Battler and Beatrice both confirm there are 17 people...

To me, this just suggests that "Human" (the word Erika uses) and "Person" have two different definitions in the game.
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Old 2010-07-13, 18:00   Link #3072
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
I'd argue that all actions must be in character for the pieces, or at least possible for their character (as in, something that they'd be very unlikely to do but might have some logical reason for doing it that has nothing to do with the apparent reason.
But isn't that faulty logic? If I see them doing it, am I to believe it was in-character for them? Especially considering how Piece-Erika was characterized in ep5?
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Old 2010-07-13, 18:00   Link #3073
m0h
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Let's say they are possible for her. Are they in-character for Furudo Erika? I would submit that no, they aren't. They're possible for Meta-Erika, but just as Piece-Battler isn't Meta-Battler, Piece-Erika shouldn't be Meta-Erika either. Yet for all of ep6 Meta-Erika appears to be in control.
In ep 5, we know that Lambda took the Game Master role, and Bern the role of the player. It is possible that Lambda granted full control of her piece, just like Battler has full control of his "piece form" in the first game, when MetaBattler wasn't born yet.

It can be possible that in the 6th game, Erika still kept full control of her piece part, making both PieceErika and MetaErika being the same entity.

After all, Bern kept control of Erika until the end of the 6th game.
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Old 2010-07-13, 18:01   Link #3074
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It could also mean that corpses may or may not be taken into account. For example, it's possible to say "Kinzo is on the island" and "Kinzo is not on the island" depending on context.
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Old 2010-07-13, 18:02   Link #3075
m0h
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
But then Battler and Beatrice both confirm there are 17 people...

To me, this just suggests that "Human" (the word Erika uses) and "Person" have two different definitions in the game.
Same thing with Kinzo.. as long the trick isn't exposed, the red truth is effective.
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Old 2010-07-13, 18:06   Link #3076
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I thought piece Erika and Meta Erika were always one and the same. She received truths and tipoffs from Bernkastel in ep5, right?
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Old 2010-07-13, 18:12   Link #3077
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
...Well, did Erika ever actually say that she sealed the outside of the windows?
It's not like it wasn't said... It was said to the point she explained she even wore her swimsuit while doing it.

But of course what you mean is that it wasn't said in red.
Well, let me say that this is also problematic for several reasons. For once she couldn't possibly do that without the cousins noticing. Yet it's not as problematic as doing it from outside.

The problem here is... Why? What was the purpose? Did Erika or anyone have anything to gain from telling us that she sealed the windows climbing like a spider in the midst of a typhoon rather than telling us that she did it normally from the inside?

I can understand why the witch is presenting fake scenes to the detective. But how can I understand this?
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Old 2010-07-13, 18:15   Link #3078
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The problem here is... Why? What was the purpose? Did Erika or anyone have anything to gain from telling us that she sealed the windows climbing like a spider in the midst of a typhoon rather than telling us that she did it normally from the inside?
Actually, how would Erika expect to check the seals on the windows if they are on the outside?... That would mean going outside to do it, wouldn't it?
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Old 2010-07-13, 18:15   Link #3079
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
I thought piece Erika and Meta Erika were always one and the same. She received truths and tipoffs from Bernkastel in ep5, right?
Pretend the Meta-World does not exist at all. Compare the behaviors of Erika in both cases. Is she a little odd? Yes. Is she an asshole? Yes. Is she a bit obsessive? Yes. Is she a psycho killer for no apparent reason? Um... no. She was willing to accuse Natsuhi of murder, but I suspect Piece-Erika genuinely (and incorrectly) believed it.

Erika does have a couple of meta-outbursts in ep5, but they are almost entirely and pointedly ignored, even though her dining room outburst could not possibly have gone unnoticed.
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2010-07-13, 18:18   Link #3080
chronotrig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The problem here is... Why? What was the purpose? Did Erika or anyone have anything to gain from telling us that she sealed the windows climbing like a spider in the midst of a typhoon rather than telling us that she did it normally from the inside?

I can understand why the witch is presenting fake scenes to the detective. But how can I understand this?
I'm pretty sure Erika never said anything of the sort.

Battler: "......Don't tell me...you used that seal of yours......on all the windows of the guesthouse......? In that weather, ......dressed like that...?"

Erika: "Well, I did have my swimsuit from when I drifted here."

That's all Erika ever says. The rest is just Battler's and/or Virgilia's imagination, unless I've missed something
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