AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-07-16, 11:57   Link #3241
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Well, they seem to really dislike Erika...
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is online now  
Old 2010-07-16, 12:27   Link #3242
Heatth
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Brasil
Age: 23
Send a message via MSN to Heatth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You misunderstood me Heatth.

I'm assuming that Rudolf and the other couldn't really fall for such a fake mass murder. It's hard to imagine how they could have been tricked. You don't even need to be a doctor to notice there's still pulse, or that someone is still breathing.

So I can only explain it with Rudolf Hideyoshi and Krauss playing an act.

But it's out of character for Rudolf, Hideyoshi and Krauss to be capable of acting to that extent. Not it's not actually a matter being able to, is a matter of willing to.

Would really Krauss accept to make a fool of himself by playing the part of the devastated husband? Would Hideyoshi really start crying in front of everyone?

This is what I meant.
Ah, yeah, in that case I agree with you. I've said before, but that is the main hole in my reasoning. "Why would they go so far for a simple prank?". I have yet to find a answer to that question.

That being said, is it that hard to fake a murder? Lets assume Nanjo was inside the prank (he must be, since he is a doctor). Lets also say other person of the group that looked for the corpses was also inside (Gohda or Krauss). If it is a murder case, the one who find the corpses must not disturb the crime scene too much. There just need to have one person to remember it to them (as for the previous Episodes, rarely anyone would disagree). I've just reread the scene when they found Battler corpse (the only fully shown), and at no point they check the pulse. Actually, I am not even sure if they touched Battler in any way.

So, yeah, I believe it is possible to fake a murder. That still don't answer why Eva, Rosa, Kyrie and Natsuhi would agree to play dead. Even assuming Kyrie, Eva and Rosa wanted to use the opportunity to search around the house for proofs against Krauss, this still don't explain Natsuhi ( well, "entertain a guest" is a lame but possible excuse).

Btw, I just thought, even if Hideyoshi, Krauss and Rudolf didn't know about the prank in the beginning, they might have been told when Erika was not around, in the Cousins Room and the Next Room Over. That would explain no one bothering with the missing Kanon and Shannon going out through the window.

Anyway, Jan-Poo, even by a Meta World point of view, I believe the Game Master can not let the characters act out of character. My reason is Dlanor praising Battler even tough he have only fought Piece!Battler controlled by Lambdadelta. She mention Piece!Battler could only fight so well because it was something possible for Battler. She can't be meaning 'physically' possible, or it would be an empty praise, she must have been saying 'mentally' possible. For what I understand, the piece can only act in a way it is possible for the real character, both physically(no magic) and mentally (staying in character). That is probably why it is so hard to create a new game.

PP:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Well, they seem to really dislike Erika...
Well, this is also a lame but possible explanation. To be fair, Erika is just that annoying.
Heatth is offline  
Old 2010-07-16, 12:35   Link #3243
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
funny enough they could have killed Erika and get away with it easily. I guess they didn't hate her enough.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2010-07-16, 16:02   Link #3244
winter 923
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Anyway it's not just Rudolf, everyone seems to act in a way that is way beyond what you would expect them to act according to their characters.
Well i am going to counter that with: who is the detective? who to trust? I do not get the whole "If Battler does not see it do not trust it" but since Erika is clearly the culprit i can simply doubt that scene.
Also, anyone noticed how this time so many Chapters do not have a Time? I always thought they do not have a Date if it is not on Rokkenjima 1986.
There might be a chance that Kraus knows. He was not on Rokkenjima when Natsushi got her hands on Battler but there might be a chance someone slipped it to him (maybe even Natsushi herself so they could treat Rudolf to keep Kyrie on a "short leash")
winter 923 is offline  
Old 2010-07-16, 16:03   Link #3245
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
"Ah yes, Erika-chan, would you like to participate in a murder mystery?"

"That sounds exciting! What role do I play?"

"You'll be the victim. Hold still. Really still."
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is online now  
Old 2010-07-16, 17:04   Link #3246
Metaler
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Brazil - São Paulo
Age: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But it's out of character for Rudolf, Hideyoshi and Krauss to be capable of acting to that extent. Not it's not actually a matter being able to, is a matter of willing to.

Would really Krauss accept to make a fool of himself by playing the part of the devastated husband? Would Hideyoshi really start crying in front of everyone?

This is what I meant.
This is why I believe that they're not into the whole "conspiracy".
I think that if you tried to pull off something like a series of fake murders, telling everyone about it would be quite disadvantageous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall
"Ah yes, Erika-chan, would you like to participate in a murder mystery?"

"That sounds exciting! What role do I play?"

"You'll be the victim. Hold still. Really still."
You know, I REALLY wish this happened... xDD
Metaler is offline  
Old 2010-07-16, 17:13   Link #3247
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
@winter 923

I know that Erika not being the detective allows you to deny everything that has been seen in the gameboard. But there's the fact that Battler infuriated against Bern because she didn't want to let Erika use her detective proclamation.

So after acting that way, if Battler then decided to take advantage of that, then he's either a hypocrite or a bastard trickster not much different than Erika.

There is another thing that is important to note. Erika later asks Beatrice to repeat that she isn't the rescuer.
Beatrice answers "Of course! You are the detective, are you not? Don't worry, I will respect that!"

When I tried to reason about it, I noticed two strange facts:

1) Beatrice knew well that Erika isn't the detective.
2) Beatrice had not reason to say that to answer her question.

So I think that it can be made a very plausible deduction here. What Beatrice wanted to say was:

"Even if you are the detective, I won't take advantage of that. In my eyes you are still detective and I made my moves with that in mind. Therefore tricks like using your characters to perform actions without you noticing are out of the questions. I didn't use your piece to set up the chain, not for anything else."

After Beatrice said this, Erika stopped making any further question that involved some kind of manipulation of her piece, or something that would involve any tampering with her perspective.

So this is how Beatrice played. I don't think Battler would play more dirty than Beatrice.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2010-07-16, 18:03   Link #3248
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Beatrice clearly has her rules. Whatever Battler's were, and whether they followed hers or not, she clearly obeys certain precepts internally.

I think that's part of the controversy in ep5's meta-world over whether Beatrice's games obeyed Knox. There may be no overt proclamation that they do, but Beatrice may just be that kind of "writer." She follows rules without having to shackle herself to them. In a way, the way Erika wields Dlanor to state specific rules and her abuse of them in ep6 suggests she only pays attention to them as long as they actually matter, and looks for ways around them ("Since the Detective can't be the culprit, I won't say I'm the detective" is a line of reasoning Beatrice would not permit or encourage).

I think a point Knox and Dine were making is that a well-written story shouldn't have to concern itself with their rules. The author should, instinctively, avoid using the tired tropes and cliches.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is online now  
Old 2010-07-16, 20:36   Link #3249
Disz
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Floor eh duh?
I think you guys are solving this the wrong way.

Most of you are learning of a theory,after finding out it has contradictions,you drop it and find another.

I think you should first find out

What is Magic?
What is the deal with the Shrine?
What is the layout of Rokkenjima/The Mansion?
Who is Beatrice?
Who has an alabi?
Whodunnit?
Howdunnit?
Whydunnt?

And I think they should be found in those orders.

Also,I after reading EP6 and a few EP7 spoilers,I'm going to have to say Kannon and Moetrice probably don't exist as real people.


What made me start thinking Kannon didn't exist is because after I finished the game,I started clicking some songs in the music box,and an interesting picture came up.It was of Shannan,and a very faded out Kannon.It made me wonder.

If we think correctly,Moetrice and Kannon,are both half souls,and Furfur and Zepar said Beatrice in this state was only furniture.Earlier this week I got frustrated and said something about ''breaking a mirror into thirds''.I can't really describe what I'm thinking,but this is the jest of it.

Kannon told Jessica he was ''made''.
Beatrice also said she was ''made''.

It probably doesn't have to do exactly with Battlers broken promise because in the end

BigSis-Beatrice was made first.And she wasn't made to love Battler.
How many reds can deny this?
Disz is offline  
Old 2010-07-16, 22:57   Link #3250
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Why it is a wrong way? Even by trying to answer those questions you mentioned you can only come up with a theory, test it, and then drop it or refine it if it didn't pass.
That's quite a consistent and effective method that is being used in any field of knowledge.


Anyway

Magic: if someone still has doubts about what magic is in umineko it would probably better for him to give up.
Shrine: It's not necessarily relevant or absolutely important to reach the answer. There are many theories but there are too few info to reach a conclusive answer.
Rokkenjima/Mansion layout: It's hardly of any relevance. If it was important Ryuukishi himself had the duty to explain it in detail in accordance with the Knox rules. This is not something that can be guessed or deduced. We do have a few info about this, but nothing that can allow us to make a consistent blueprint.
Who is Beatrice: Shannon, or whichever is the real persona behind her. She's also the "man from 19 years before".
Who has an alibi? For which Episode, for which murder? Anyway we have already traced a list of people that can't possibly be the culprit some time ago.
Whodunnit? Who did what? The serial murder? The explosion? Is there a serial murder at all? If there is, is it the same who planned the explosion?

The rest of the questions have the same problem as this one. Umineko isn't really a classic mystery novel. It would be to naive to think of it as one.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2010-07-16, 23:40   Link #3251
Disz
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Floor eh duh?
Well I guess I can't say it's wrong,I mean considering how far theories have gone,but I don't think we are going to get much information any more.

And

Magic: That is true.But I was referring to the two ways you could interpret magic,as a sleight of hand or a lie.
Shrine: I do think it does have a importance.If not,that clue wouldn't have been foreshadowed as much as it was.(3 Episodes)
Rokkenjima/Mansion layout: The only reason I put this here was because some people might say ''how could he/she reach it in that time anyways'',and I don't like that argument if no actual scale has been presented.
Who is Beatrice:What's harder to explain is who is the other two.
Who has an alibi: I beleive this one should be repeated every twilight.And an alabi to the murder,I mean.
Whodunnit:The murder.Whether the murderer is or is not the one who planted the bomb is currently unknown,but CAN be solved by now.
Howdunnit:For each twilight,how did this person do it in a way that did not violate the red or anything said near or by Battler's point of view.
Whydunnit:Why murder?I'm sure the cause is the same each game.
Disz is offline  
Old 2010-07-16, 23:54   Link #3252
Kit
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Canada
Aside from the whole ridiculously baffling scenes with Hachijo Tohya, what really baffled me was the fact that in the credits/game record, Battler is STILL dead in the first twilight even though we know he's not, as well as the fact that the whole Kanon saving Battler scenario seems to neither confirm nor deny Shkanon, but only make things even more confusing and vague.

On different note, was anyone else bothered by the fact that these characters have become fictions in their own fictional universe?
Kit is offline  
Old 2010-07-17, 00:00   Link #3253
Ronove
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
After almost finishing this epic Visual Novel; may I post my theories/questions?

1) Identity of Beatrice: After reading the trials, I must theorize that Beatrice=Shannon!! And Shannon=Kanon as well! The 'completition of souls' of Beato and Kanon could have been a hint from the Magic World and 'make-sense' in the human world. Any objections? Pony theory~
Also, the fact that there were 'promises', 'love for Battler' (Shannon could've been bethrothed to him?) dates back 6 years ago, he could've met Shannon.

2) Question: When DemonJessica was fighting Kyrie, it was shown that Shannon worked 3 days a week? Does that mean she wouldn't have ever seen Kanon and Shannon together as well? (I guess Shannon wanted a double shift...)

3) Question 2: In one scene (forgotten to screenie it), Lambda states that Battler didn't have detectives' authority in the previous games as such, so does that mean his perspective and examinations aren't 100% (that means anyone can fake deaths, etc.)?
__________________
Ronove is offline  
Old 2010-07-17, 00:24   Link #3254
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronove View Post
Also, the fact that there were 'promises', 'love for Battler' (Shannon could've been bethrothed to him?) dates back 6 years ago, he could've met Shannon.
Battler states pretty clearly in episode 2 that he had a crush on Shannon. when he says the line "Good bye my fleeting love of 6 years ago" in his narration, but they never got serious. Being engaged to her is probably taking it a bit too far. He was 12, man c'mon!

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-07-17 at 00:43.
Judoh is offline  
Old 2010-07-17, 00:37   Link #3255
Disz
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Floor eh duh?
Also there is someone there who doesn't exist,considering the ending when they said this to Erika:

''Sorry but-''

''''Even with you, there's only 17 people.''''

Which means without an extra person, there is 16 people.That means that Kinzo and ''some other person'' there is not alive at the time, or simply does not exist as a person.

That or they mean even with her there's only 17 people because in truth,her body landed there,but she isn't even alive so it doesn't count.
Disz is offline  
Old 2010-07-17, 00:44   Link #3256
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Well it's either "16+1 makes 17" or "17+0 makes 17." Those are pretty much the only two math tricks that work for that red. Just depends how you read it. As I recall, the Japanese has a similar vagueness to the construction, so it's clear what they're talking about, but not specifically who counts.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is online now  
Old 2010-07-17, 00:44   Link #3257
Heatth
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Brasil
Age: 23
Send a message via MSN to Heatth
...That would be Kanon wouldn't it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Well it's either "16+1 makes 17" or "17+0 makes 17." Those are pretty much the only two math tricks that work for that red. Just depends how you read it. As I recall, the Japanese has a similar vagueness to the construction, so it's clear what they're talking about, but not specifically who counts.
I find harder to thing Erika don't exist then Kanon. First she is the detective. Second we have so many hints Kanon=Shannon in Ep6 it is not even funny.
Heatth is offline  
Old 2010-07-17, 00:50   Link #3258
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heatth View Post
I find harder to thing Erika don't exist then Kanon. First she is the detective. Second we have so many hints Kanon=Shannon in Ep6 it is not even funny.
The love trial seems to be the only thing remotely resembling a hint to me and it just seems to be the usual furniture rambling. The rest is totally taken out of context from Hachijou's conversations about lil sis Beato.

None of it impresses me, and I'm disappointed anyone felt shaken up about it from reading it.
Judoh is offline  
Old 2010-07-17, 00:53   Link #3259
Disz
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Floor eh duh?
I honestly believe both of them do not exist.It's easy for me to believe Erika doesn't exist.She was just a piece Bern brought in to make the ending ugly,because it seemed that Battler had lost his hate for Beato,much to Berns dismay.Also,it was 07's way of saying ''Fine,if you can't solve it,I'll make it easier.Here's how the story would have gone if someone else was there too.''

I think Erika pinned someone worthwhile.

Reading EP1,I found a few people I beleive to be on ''Beatrice's'' side.

Fakers:
Kruass
Rosa
Shannon
Nastuhi
Nanjo
Kannon
Genji
Kumasuwa
Hideyoshi

I have come up with these due to actions,knowing things they should not know (Hideyoshi >:l) and etc.

And by Hideyoshi,I mean the fact he somehow already knows George has loved Shannon and wasn't at all surprised that he and her were engaged.Eva was enraged and believable,so she's gone from suspicion for now.
Disz is offline  
Old 2010-07-17, 00:54   Link #3260
Kit
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Canada
There are a lot of hints concerning Shkanon but the end solution to the puzzle makes no sense if ShKanon was true, unless you're suggesting that it was Shannon that saved Battler in the end.
Kit is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 22:58.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
We use Silk.