AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-08-03, 11:14   Link #3841
Raiza Sunozaki
Sorcerer of Uncertainty
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Canada! ... It's ALWAYS Canada...
Age: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaplaceNoMa View Post
Well, every lie should be based on something. It has to serve some purpose. I won't question the reason why he's lying (this probably doesn't have anything to do with him being in Natsuhi's conspiracy). I'll question why does he say exactly these words? What are their purpose even if it's a lie?
Well, let's think about it then. The Kuwadorian existed on the island before the mansion, a statement which while not perfectly reliable, gives us no reason to doubt it either. So either the mansion existed there beforehand, or Kinzo's whole reason for building it (and to a stretch, buying the whole island) was to contain the woman he thought was the reincarnation of Beatrice (regardless of if the original was human or not).
Things were going well, and I don't think Kinzo had many warm fuzzy feelings for the elders who forced him to take the title of the head and into a political marriage, so he decides to build the head mansion on Rokkenjima as well, and moves the residence of the family head to the island as well. But as the mansion is being built, the orginal Beatrice dies by Reason X, and Kinzo falls into despair.
So it looks like Genji might've been telling the truth afterall.
As an afterthought, considering the timeline, could it be possible that there was a child between Kinzo and this Beatrice, which grew up to be Rosa's Beatrice? The first Beatrice could've died giving birth to her daughter. Looking at the timeline, and placing Rosa's Beatrice at around Battler's age, it could work.
Raiza Sunozaki is offline  
Old 2010-08-03, 11:29   Link #3842
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
If Genji is saying Beatrice died before the mansion was built, he can't be referring to Beatrice-2. In fact, we know for certain he's aware of Beatrice-2 (Kawabata let that out of the bag in ep4 by implication), so he would probably never bring up what happened to her to the family at large. So the person he's talking about is Beatrice-1, if there ever was such a person.

But why wouldn't there be? Kuwadorian had to be built by someone. It's possible that Kinzo did it, but what if he didn't? What if it was Beatrice-1's house, whoever she/he/it might have been, and he bought the island for that reason?
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline  
Old 2010-08-03, 11:40   Link #3843
UsagiTenpura
Echo of Noise
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
Send a message via Skype™ to UsagiTenpura
I'm not sure how to shape it into a theory, but I believe the relation between orriginal Kinzo and Beatrice likely reflects that of Battler with Beato.

Beato-1's death likely is something akin to her arc 5's death.

Tho something weird is how current Beato never seems to claim in any ways that she's Beato 1, however she often implies being Beato 2.
UsagiTenpura is offline  
Old 2010-08-03, 11:44   Link #3844
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
It's also interesting to note that the Beatrice of EP2 is acting in the role of Beatrice-1

This can be deduced by the fact she says she hasn't met Kinzo since about 30 years.

About 30 years before supposedly Beatrice-1 died, and about 30 years before Kinzo moved to Rokkenjima with all of his family.

There is probably some kind of connection between Beatrice-1's death and Kinzo's decision to move to Rokkenjima.

The easiest explanation is that for some reasons Beatrice-1 couldn't move away from Rokkenjima and she died giving birth to Beatrice-2. At that point Kinzo had some kind of obligation to take care of Beatrice-2 but the same reasons that bound Beatrice-1 to that island also bound Beatrice-2

It is however extremely hard to imagine what kind of reasons are those, unless there's another "queen carrier" stuff...
naaaa...
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2010-08-03, 11:46   Link #3845
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
It is however extremely hard to imagine what kind of reasons are those, unless there's another "queen carrier" stuff...
naaaa...
Queen aircarft carrier? That would explain a lot!
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline  
Old 2010-08-03, 11:51   Link #3846
UsagiTenpura
Echo of Noise
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
Send a message via Skype™ to UsagiTenpura
Well about getting Rokkenjima...
Battler was entrusted Beato's gameboard...
Is it possible to relate that in a way that Rokkenjima is Beato1's gameboard in a general sense.
Said Beatrice died, all that was left of her, entrusted to Kinzo, was the gameboard.... Rokkenjima?

Actually that's probably the best way to see it. Rokkenjima is important because Beatrice cannot exists outside of it. It's not that she'd die or anything, but if she left it, wouldn't be Beatrice anymore. I can't find a good example for Beato 1, but if you think about Beato 2 it seems to work well enough. Suppose Rosa would've brought back Beato 2 from Kuwadorian to the mansion, then soon after she'd have likely left the island, learn some truth about herself, and would stop existing as Beatrice. At the very least, the golden witch aspect of her wouldn't exist at all anymore.
UsagiTenpura is offline  
Old 2010-08-03, 11:59   Link #3847
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
But that Beatrice didn't even want to be a witch. In that case you'd have to think that Kinzo is a bastard and all the servants are accomplices in a crime.

I want to think that Kinzo had a very good reason for that.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2010-08-03, 12:14   Link #3848
UsagiTenpura
Echo of Noise
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
Send a message via Skype™ to UsagiTenpura
Crime of keeping Beato 2 in Kuwadorian? Sadly by this point it seems we have no choice but to accept Beato 2 was a captive, and that many servants knew about it.

There's various ways one can convince themselves the "bad" they do is still not really bad. Suppose Beato 2 was an orphan, in the late 40ies in Japan, she would've likely died on her own. Kinzo adopts and raise her, however keeps her captive. He could reason out that even tho he does that to her, her fate would've been horrible (or simply death) otherwise. We can guess from her innocence that she wasn't abused. On the contrary, it seems like Kinzo gave her constantly high class gifts. Feels like they're all things done to "balance" the evil he's doing by keeping her captive.

If you say the idea of balancing is too far fetched, well that's exactly what winged servants are. In ep 2 they sorta explain how servants are basically abused (especially by Natsuhi lol...) and live an extremly harsh life that most of them can't bear for long. They even have to give up their real name while being on Rokkenjima. However they're paid very very well and it gives them a good start financially and also a good work experience. From Kinzo's view he is doing them a favor. From many of the adopted children he's possibly doing them a favor. However from our external view, can you really accept the treatment they have to go through in the family? (just thinking about the idea of harshly punishing servants.... that's not what you normally do, you just fire an incompetant servant... the idea that Natsuhi deprived food from Shannon as in arc 2 is example enough I believe).

Going to add to that, Natsuhi was to Kinzo a "trophy wife" for his son. At least orriginally. We thus know it's a possible view he has on some women.

Edit : Beside being kept captive actually, everything else points out that Beato 2 was better treated by Kinzo then he ever treated any of his children.
UsagiTenpura is offline  
Old 2010-08-03, 12:26   Link #3849
rogerpepitone
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Send a message via Yahoo to rogerpepitone
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogleking View Post
Shkannon doesn't really make sense, especially when you consider things from the other games.
Game 3 - The adults find Shannon and Kanon dead in different rooms. Are you telling me Shannon faked dead in one room, they found her, then somehow gets into the other room (that is locked) before the adults get there?
Shannon was in the parlor, which had a first floor window. She had a master key and the key to one of the rooms.
Kinzo was in the boiler room. The room had an unlocked first-floor door (though the adults might not realize that) and no window. He had the chapel key but no master key.
Kanon was in the chapel.
The other victims were on the second or higher floors.

They're unlikely to search the chapel first; it's a good walk away. They'll probably go through the sealed rooms in the mansion first. Kanon will very likely be the last victim found.
The adults will probably start with a first-floor room (parlor or boiler room). If they realize that the boiler room has another door and start there, the chapel key will be useless for exploring the mansion, and they'll probably break into the parlor next. If they don't realize that, they'll probably start with the parlor.

Shannon will probably be the first (possibly second) victim found, and Kanon will probably be the last. (Also, Shannon's body is mentioned as being hidden behind a couch; Hideyoshi is the only one who sees her body in Episodes 1 and 3.) She'll have plenty of time to move from the parlor to the chapel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogleking View Post
Regarding the deaths of Jessica and Kanon, Rosa doesn't have the time or opportunity to go do it. In fact, only a few people don't have alibis: Shannon, Genji, Kumasawa, Nanjo, maybe Gohda if you think he is super fast.

Rosa is with Battler for Kuma/Nanjo and George/Shannon/Gohda deaths.
How does Gohda have to be fast? He's ostensibly the last person (other than the killer) who saw Jessica and Kanon alive. And Rosa's alibi for Jessica's death is Shannon and Genji. How does she have an alibi when they don't?

When were Kumasawa and Nanjo killed? While they officially were killed around 1 PM, their death isn't confirmed until around 7.

When Genji knocked to say he'd found Nanjo & Kumasawa's bodies, he woke the people inside up. Rosa had sleeping pills, and I'm pretty sure she made Battler's food while he was playing with Maria.

In short, Rosa is lacking an alibi all across the board.
rogerpepitone is offline  
Old 2010-08-03, 12:46   Link #3850
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Was Beatrice-2 a prisoner? That's really a matter of perspective. She wasn't kept under guard, else Rosa would have been unable to make contact with her. She was fenced in, but in a certain sense the island was quite dangerous; it's treacherous terrain, this is well-established and part of the reason Kuwadorian is so hard to find.

Did she leave? Apparently not, given her level of ignorance. Could she leave? Kinzo may not have wanted her to, but past a certain point it's possible he had no way to stop her short of forcing her to stay. But we don't know for certain that he did. That's not to say Beatrice-2 ever did leave. But we can't be certain it's because she was never supposed to be allowed to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Shannon will probably be the first (possibly second) victim found, and Kanon will probably be the last. (Also, Shannon's body is mentioned as being hidden behind a couch; Hideyoshi is the only one who sees her body in Episodes 1 and 3.) She'll have plenty of time to move from the parlor to the chapel.
And then move back to the parlor.

Changing outfits and reapplying fake blood or whatever both times.

Never being seen. Or caught.

And nobody investigates either Shannon or Kanon close enough to tell they're "both" still alive.

Mmmhmm.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline  
Old 2010-08-03, 13:07   Link #3851
k//eternal
do you know ベアトリーチェ様?
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 25
Well, we do know that the servants have ninjalike abilities (I think they made a point out of Kanon appearing out of nowhere pretty early on), so... I wouldn't put it past Shkanon?
k//eternal is offline  
Old 2010-08-03, 13:31   Link #3852
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Every time you say "I wouldn't put it past Shkanon", Shkanontrice eats some of your brain cells.
Please think of your brain cells.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline  
Old 2010-08-03, 13:40   Link #3853
UsagiTenpura
Echo of Noise
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
Send a message via Skype™ to UsagiTenpura
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Was Beatrice-2 a prisoner? That's really a matter of perspective. She wasn't kept under guard, else Rosa would have been unable to make contact with her. She was fenced in, but in a certain sense the island was quite dangerous; it's treacherous terrain, this is well-established and part of the reason Kuwadorian is so hard to find.
He might not have kept her captive in a brutal way, but seemingly went as far as he could to make sure she wouldn't leave in less "amoral" ways. Your argument about the terrain makes it seems as if she's "stuck" there and Kinzo is unable to save her. Since Kinzo could get out of there, he could've gotten her out of there. Not to mention she was never allowed apparently to see Kawabata even tho the secret dock shouldn't be too far from Kuwadorian itself. All that we know is that once she learned she could leave she did leave. So at the very least, Kinzo convinced her she was trapped there. Mental barriers can work well enough to make someone a prisoner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Did she leave? Apparently not, given her level of ignorance. Could she leave? Kinzo may not have wanted her to, but past a certain point it's possible he had no way to stop her short of forcing her to stay. But we don't know for certain that he did. That's not to say Beatrice-2 ever did leave. But we can't be certain it's because she was never supposed to be allowed to.
Well she was never very "mature" maybe Kinzo wanted to "release her" once she was back at being what he considers "Beatrice" of his dreams, but I don't see anything suggesting that at all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
And then move back to the parlor.

Changing outfits and reapplying fake blood or whatever both times.

Never being seen. Or caught.

And nobody investigates either Shannon or Kanon close enough to tell they're "both" still alive.
Yeah the whole changing room scenario does feel far fetched, however if they had investigated any of the first twilight victims well enough in arc 3, they wouldn't have thought this was all "possibly a prank from Kinzo".
UsagiTenpura is offline  
Old 2010-08-03, 13:47   Link #3854
Raiza Sunozaki
Sorcerer of Uncertainty
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Canada! ... It's ALWAYS Canada...
Age: 21
I think the order of Beatrice's goes like this: Oliver's Storm-Beatrice (since I like how it explains the gold), Kinzo's Lover-Beatrice, who gave birth to Rosa's Beatrice, who died thanks to a fall. Kumasawa, who was watching over Rosa's Beatrice, was viewed as a mentor by her, and so Beatrice viewed her as a witch, creating Virgillia-Beatrice. Virgillia-Beatrice went on to be a mother/mentor to Battler's Beato (who is all but confirmed to be Shannon), succeeding the name of Beatrice to her. And all of them in some way wrap up to become the Meta-Beato we know and love, or hate.
There are way too many women with the same name in this series.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Every time you say "I wouldn't put it past Shkanon", Shkanontrice eats some of your brain cells.
Please think of your brain cells.
I wholeheartedly agree with this.
Wait... so Shkanontrice is a zombie?
Raiza Sunozaki is offline  
Old 2010-08-03, 14:01   Link #3855
Pika_power
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: New Zealand
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
I wholeheartedly agree with this.
Wait... so Shkanontrice is a zombie?
Wouldn't put it past her.
Pika_power is offline  
Old 2010-08-03, 14:22   Link #3856
KnightOfTwo
Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
I wholeheartedly agree with this.
Wait... so Shkanontrice is a zombie?
Well there was zombie Kanon from EP2, so it has been hinted
KnightOfTwo is offline  
Old 2010-08-03, 14:37   Link #3857
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
That would incidentally explain how Kanon doesn't exist in the room.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline  
Old 2010-08-03, 14:38   Link #3858
chronotrig
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
And then move back to the parlor.

Changing outfits and reapplying fake blood or whatever both times.

Never being seen. Or caught.

And nobody investigates either Shannon or Kanon close enough to tell they're "both" still alive.

Mmmhmm.
Well, as far as we know, no one checks the parlor again until George goes there several hours later, so that would hardly be a problem.

Also, you try to make it sound ridiculous that Shannon could have gone from the parlor to the chapel without being found, but that wouldn't even have been hard. After all, it would have taken the rest of the group quite some time to go to the 4 rooms between the parlor and the chapel, and all of those rooms were inside the mansion itself. Meanwhile, the parlor now has a broken window that anyone can leave through. She just needs to walk out of that, head for the chapel (it's dark outside, so she probably doesn't even need to sneak around), and dress up as Kanon in the 10-20 minutes it takes the others to search through the other closed rooms. In fact, that might be why this long chain of closed rooms was set up in the first place.

Also, if Shannon is the culprit, then both EP1 and EP2 hint that she has a fake corpse somewhere (and she has the fake breasts and hair ready if Shkanon is true). Once the initial inspection of the corpses was completed, she could switch out with this other corpse. The family knows not to disturb the crime scene, so they aren't likely to check it too closely.

By the way, as I've noted before, it's very possible that nearly every single person who saw those fake corpses realized that they were fake. Just look at their reactions later on.
__________________
"The only moral it is possible to draw from this story is that one should never throw the letter 'q' into a privet bush. But, unfortunately, there are times when it is unavoidable."
--Hitchhikers


www.witch-hunt.com Theory page
chronotrig is offline  
Old 2010-08-03, 14:53   Link #3859
Kitsu
The unlucky one
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Hiding
Quote:
Well, as far as we know, no one checks the parlor again until George goes there several hours later, so that would hardly be a problem.

Also, you try to make it sound ridiculous that Shannon could have gone from the parlor to the chapel without being found, but that wouldn't even have been hard. After all, it would have taken the rest of the group quite some time to go to the 4 rooms between the parlor and the chapel, and all of those rooms were inside the mansion itself. Meanwhile, the parlor now has a broken window that anyone can leave through. She just needs to walk out of that, head for the chapel (it's dark outside, so she probably doesn't even need to sneak around), and dress up as Kanon in the 10-20 minutes it takes the others to search through the other closed rooms. In fact, that might be why this long chain of closed rooms was set up in the first place.
You forget that it was raining. Therefore she must have taken extra caution to not get wet. It was a storm so it is almost impossible to stay completly dry even with a umbrella and an umbrella is not really something to sneak around with right?. She must have walked to the chapel in her Shannon clothes otherwise Kanon's would have been slightly dirty and wet. Problem is, why did no one in the chapel found the Shannon clothes? And why were they clean when Shannon was later found in the parlor?

The fake corpse is... possible if you linger yourself around the red but otherwise it might be possible. BUt transporting fake corpses in the rain...or you are implying they were already there before the rain started...during the day of the still normal the family conference.
__________________
Thanks for the Signature, Vandakiara
Kitsu is offline  
Old 2010-08-03, 15:07   Link #3860
chronotrig
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsu View Post
You forget that it was raining. Therefore she must have taken extra caution to not get wet. It was a storm so it is almost impossible to stay completly dry even with a umbrella and an umbrella is not really something to sneak around with right?. She must have walked to the chapel in her Shannon clothes otherwise Kanon's would have been slightly dirty and wet. Problem is, why did no one in the chapel found the Shannon clothes? And why were they clean when Shannon was later found in the parlor?
As I said, she didn't have to sneak around at all. Most of the windows to the mansion have the curtains and shutters on, and it's very dark outside. It shouldn't have been hard to find a route where people running through the inside of the mansion couldn't see her (she knows the route they're taking). So yes, she might have had an umbrella.

Well, even if Kanon's clothes were wet, no one would have found that particularly surprising. He would have had to walk (or be carried) from the mansion to the chapel at some point, and if an umbrella couldn't protect Shannon from the rain, it couldn't have protected Kanon either. So it's possible that she hid Shannon's clothes somewhere outside the chapel and walked there as Kanon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsu View Post
The fake corpse is... possible if you linger yourself around the red but otherwise it might be possible. BUt transporting fake corpses in the rain...or you are implying they were already there before the rain started...during the day of the still normal the family conference.
Presumably, if she was planning to use a fake corpse (let's say Erika's or a dummy), she could have hidden it somewhere in the mansion. She doesn't need to use that until after the family has locked itself up in the guesthouse, so she has hours and hours to move it into place. So, it could have been anywhere in the mansion. I doubt the family searched in every single room when they went around finding the corpses. On the contrary, they'd be rushing as fast as they could to see if any people could be saved, and then back to the guesthouse to make sure the children were safe.

Oh, and also, Shannon has plenty of time to dry off the corpse and give it dry clothes, so the rain isn't really a problem.
__________________
"The only moral it is possible to draw from this story is that one should never throw the letter 'q' into a privet bush. But, unfortunately, there are times when it is unavoidable."
--Hitchhikers


www.witch-hunt.com Theory page
chronotrig is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:45.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.