[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[Jan-Poo]

Then show me a case where Knox 8 was countered with something that wasn't closely related to the issue.

[chronotrig]

The only thing I really take issue with is that I don't think the Game Master can change the layout of the game board. Since the guestroom in the cousins' room wasn't constructed during the game, then it must have been there in all games, and no one ever commented on it, despite all the time spent inside that room. Also, you'd need to construct a reason for why Krauss would build something so ridiculous in a building he was trying to turn into a resort.

[UsagiTenpura]

I don't think the gamemaster has any means of changing the geographical parameters tho. Especially not "only for a single game". If they really could do that then I'm not sure why the Virgilia/Beato battle of arc 3 couldn't have left "traces" to prove it occured.

At that point you could say the island can stop being an island and allows anyone to interfere with it.

[Jan-Poo]

Well Battler's logic error would have been quite easy to solve

A thunder destroyed a wall of the closed room, so Battler escaped through that. All reds would be effective.

[Oliver]

Well, the logic of containing rooms definitely describes how Kanon could have escaped.

Assuming that the "cousins room" is a set of two connected rooms, one of which, taken separately, is "the next room over", as long as only the status of the seals on the outer doors and one window is confirmed, even if the next room over is sealed separately, including the interconnecting door, anyone can leave through the unconfirmed window whenever they please.

What I have problems with is plausibly squeezing "the guest room" inside this set of two interconnected rooms, as it needs to have been sealed well beforehand too.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

The only thing I really take issue with is that I don't think the Game Master can change the layout of the game board. Since the guestroom in the cousins' room wasn't constructed during the game, then it must have been there in all games, and no one ever commented on it, despite all the time spent inside that room. Also, you'd need to construct a reason for why Krauss would build something so ridiculous in a building he was trying to turn into a resort.

As you have pointed out so many times, Battler observed that this was not an orthodox move. If the Game Master can change the story events, why can he or she not change the geography as well? Because it's dishonest? Well yes, it is dishonest. But Kaisos isn't suggesting otherwise.

[Jan-Poo]

And Renall you would be happy with that?

How the various problems you frequently pointed out about shkanon do not apply in this case?

Does it have any narrative value? Can it be used to explain all the previous tricks? Does it make things easier to explain? Does it make the story consistent?

[Oliver]

Notice that this trick does not necessarily change the phyiscal geography. It only requires changes in the logical georgaphy, that is, making established names refer to objects which are not necessarily the same as the objects that were referred to by these names previously.

It's not like "the guest room" cannot refer to any of a large number of rooms both in the mansion and in the guesthouse in the firtst place.

[UsagiTenpura]

Actually about the clues, I think Jan-Poo's point is valid. Think back about arc 5.

The scenes about the baby 19 years ago weren't enough to count as hint that Battler was that person. He had to add hints that there was something suspicious about his own birth.

Also... it means the following...
Erika sealed the same window 3 times, then she sealed the same door 3 times.
However she then somehow broke only one of the seals on the door, but not the other two, and then reset the chainlock with a new seal.
As for the rooms being inside each other and Battler/Kanon moving between them by a means other then the windows/doors....

[Request: 'The definition of going in or out refers to when someone crosses the boundary between the guest room and the area outside it.'] I acknowledge it.

Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people.

They did went in and out, and doing so means crossing the boundary of the room.

[Jan-Poo]

It's not like "the guest room" cannot refer to any of a large number of rooms both in the mansion and in the guesthouse in the firtst place.

that's not the problem, the problem is that there has never been such a thing as a room inside the cousin's room. You definitely need to change the architecture of the guesthouse for that to work.

[Kaisos Erranon]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

How the various problems you frequently pointed out about shkanon do not apply in this case?

That actually isn't why I posted this trick; it's because there should be a way of getting Kanon into that guest room without using either window.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

that's not the problem, the problem is that there has never been such a thing as a room inside the cousin's room.

When was this said?

[Jan-Poo]

That's not the right question!

Battler couldn't answer to Dlanor "where was it said that Kinzo study isn't comprised of multiple rooms?" He was the one that had to demonstrate that it was said that there were multiple rooms. That's how it works not the other way around.

If there is no clue of its existence it doesn't exist. Konx 8th is basically a devil's proof killer.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

And Renall you would be happy with that?

How the various problems you frequently pointed out about shkanon do not apply in this case?

Does it have any narrative value? Can it be used to explain all the previous tricks? Does it make things easier to explain? Does it make the story consistent?

Shhhhh, stop spoiling my maneuvers before I can make you and chronotrig realize what I'm up to.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

Shhhhh, stop spoiling my maneuvers before I can make you and chronotrig realize what I'm up to.

Heh, so your logic is "this theory is ridiculous, chrono's theory is ridiculous, therefore if chrono thinks this theory is ridiculous, he's a hypocrite." Very clever.

[Kaisos Erranon]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

If there is no clue of its existence it doesn't exist. Konx 8th is basically a devil's proof killer.

And I'm saying "the clue of the cups and coins being the solution" satisfies Knox 8.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Heh, so your logic is "this theory is ridiculous, chrono's theory is ridiculous, therefore if chrono thinks this theory is ridiculous, he's a hypocrite." Very clever.

Well? It's no less valid if we're willing to accept intellectual dishonesty on the part of an author (either ryukishi himself or an in-universe author/Game Master).

[Disz]

It was be an ass pull if the logic twist was calling the guest room other than a guest room.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

Well? It's no less valid if we're willing to accept intellectual dishonesty on the part of an author (either ryukishi himself or an in-universe author/Game Master).

Intellectual dishonesty... Heh, I wonder how you'd define that.

[UsagiTenpura]

Now that's far fetching it.
The idea that someone can disguise themselves as someone else and having no one else realizing so is a very common setup of quite a number of stories, and also is something that happens in the real world. The only reason Shkanon seems odd at all is because of the time she'd spent on Rokkenjima, thus allowing people to have a decent chance to figure it out. Suppose it was closer to "And then there were none" where no one had seen each other, the idea of someone disguising as someone else would likely be much easier to accept.

Comparing that idea to the idea that three rooms are within each other or are the same and that no one is able to realize it is plain being unfair. People can really be fooled into believing a girl is actually a guy or the opposite, suggesting that someone can be fooled into missing the multiple room thing is on a whole different level, extreme to the point that I'm more comfortable with the idea that Kanon magically vanished.

The whole reasoning about the riddles in Maria's book being a valid argument feels like saying the reasoning about the cheese puzzle is a valid argument to claim that "Kanon slipped out of the cousin's room by becoming thin enough that he could slip under the door".

[Oliver]

Actually... ...



And can anyone tell me why would Battler's "corpse" be found anywhere outside the cousins room?