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Old 2010-08-05, 17:36   Link #4101
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
The whole reasoning about the riddles in Maria's book being a valid argument feels like saying the reasoning about the cheese puzzle is a valid argument to claim that "Kanon slipped out of the cousin's room by becoming thin enough that he could slip under the door".
The difference between the cheese puzzle as a hint and the cups and coins as a hint is that a) cups and coins is actually possible in reality and b) Moetrice actually talks about "creating another closed room", not "making it so that Kanon can turn into super paper".

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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
And can anyone tell me why would Battler's "corpse" be found anywhere outside the cousins room?
Doesn't quite work. The guestroom has to be a separate room without any other people inside it, since

Except for one location, there is no one to be seen in the bedroom.
No one was seen in the bathroom.


Unless Battler convinced everyone that the closet was a portal to Narnia and everyone crowded inside it...
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Old 2010-08-05, 17:43   Link #4102
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Intellectual dishonesty... Heh, I wonder how you'd define that.
An action undertaken by the author in such a fashion as to undermine the implicit agreement between author and reader as to the nature, character, procedure, or premises of the work. Alternately, a deliberately vague delineation of the understanding such that the author is free to alter which forms were intended subsequent to the unspoken pact entered into.

A conservative definition would suggest that a work is not intellectually dishonest where no such promises have been explicitly made by the author (permitting something like Fight Club), but for the mystery genre generally and Umineko specifically that would be moot.
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Old 2010-08-05, 17:47   Link #4103
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
An action undertaken by the author in such a fashion as to undermine the implicit agreement between author and reader as to the nature, character, procedure, or premises of the work. Alternately, a deliberately vague delineation of the understanding such that the author is free to alter which forms were intended subsequent to the unspoken pact entered into.
Isn't this exactly what the Knox Rules are supposed to be about? Defining this implicit agreement?
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Old 2010-08-05, 17:47   Link #4104
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Doesn't quite work. The guestroom has to be a separate room without any other people inside it, since
Doesn't quite work for one more reason, the guest room has to have been sealed after the corpse was found and before Erika entered, which makes it impossible for the people in the "the cousins room" list to have entered the room.

It also has one more snag now that I think about it graphically -- Window B is both a window of "the cousins room" and the window of "the next room over", so once one seal is torn off, the other remains.

EDIT: If we define a "living room" between those two bedrooms marked blue and green, however, where people listed in the list marked red are, Kanon doesn't need to escape anywhere. There's still a question how he evaporates in the end, though, but he could still be dead.
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Old 2010-08-05, 17:48   Link #4105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
An action undertaken by the author in such a fashion as to undermine the implicit agreement between author and reader as to the nature, character, procedure, or premises of the work. Alternately, a deliberately vague delineation of the understanding such that the author is free to alter which forms were intended subsequent to the unspoken pact entered into.

A conservative definition would suggest that a work is not intellectually dishonest where no such promises have been explicitly made by the author, but for the mystery genre generally and Umineko specifically that would be moot.
So what promises does Shkanon break? We've already had it confirmed that a character shown in the game could have been dead years before the scenes in which he's been shown. Plus, we have plenty of scenes that show magic outright. So, if we can have an entirely new character added, why can't we have one character play two roles?
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Old 2010-08-05, 17:49   Link #4106
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Isn't this exactly what the Knox Rules are supposed to be about? Defining this implicit agreement?
Yes, but the Knox rules need not be strictly exclusive; they are a set of rules Knox proposed following because intellectually dishonest mysteries were rampant in his time. The important thing is not whether a particular ruleset is followed, but that a ruleset exists either spoken or unspoken and that it is not manipulated by the writer to keep the reader off balance.
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
So what promises does Shkanon break? We've already had it confirmed that a character shown in the game could have been dead years before the scenes in which he's been shown. Plus, we have plenty of scenes that show magic outright. So, if we can have an entirely new character added, why can't we have one character play two roles?
Where is it established that a disguise exists, again? Think of the ep5 knock again.

EDIT: By the way, I should clarify: Your theory is not Shkanon. Your theory is a mere subset of Shkanon. I am attacking your theory, but it is still theoretically possible that Shkanon is true (and if it is true I am certain your theory is not the variant in use). You seem to make this mistake a lot. Regardless of the intellectual honesty or dishonesty of Shkanon, your theory necessitates intellectual dishonesty of a different stripe entirely in addition to any inherent dishonesty in Shkanon.
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Old 2010-08-05, 17:57   Link #4107
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
EDIT: If we define a "living room" between those two bedrooms marked blue and green, however, where people listed in the list marked red are, Kanon doesn't need to escape anywhere. There's still a question how he evaporates in the end, though, but he could still be dead.
Of course, all of this really only works because we don't actually know the construction of the guesthouse rooms, which is what I believe Jan-Poo objects to.

I'd feel more comfortable with my theory if I could actually find evidence supporting "a room inside a room", but for now the cups and coins is all I have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
So what promises does Shkanon break?
None, actually. The reason it disappoints me in particular is because of how early the fanbase discovered it.
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Old 2010-08-05, 17:59   Link #4108
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Where is it established that a disguise exists, again? Think of the ep5 knock again.
Arc 1, don't remember which of them said it, but the adults suggested that Shannon could've worn a Beatrice disguise. Arc 5 also has Erika herself making the theory that Natsuhi was dressing up as Beatrice.
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Old 2010-08-05, 18:00   Link #4109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
None, actually. The reason it disappoints me in particular is because of how early the fanbase discovered it.
That's a shame. Considering EP3-EP6 were all "forgeries" by Featherine and she apparently knows the solution, EP1 and EP2 should be sufficient to find it (and if not, either you can't trust the identity of the author, or you can't trust the later EPs themselves).

In short, the fact that it was discovered early could be considered a "good sign".
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Old 2010-08-05, 18:01   Link #4110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
...Unless something like the room doesn't exist anymore, or the room left Kanon!
There's no evidence this game is set in Soviet Russia, I'm afraid.

So... according to this theory, everyone's decided to set up camp in the room with Battler's corpse in... somehow? "Battler's guestroom" was fairly well defined by red.

Shkannon just seems better since... well, it solves both elements at once, in a slightly cheeky way, and it would be close to Beatrice's heart (although it'd only be helpful in a couple of other closed rooms). We've also had lots of truths suggesting the same name can't apply to multiple people, although if someone owns both names in the first place... yeah. And this wouldn't be the first time Kanon's body has gone walkabouts...

I mean, unless you can find some way the whole of episode 6 was leading up to "the gamemaster is allowed to arbitrarily mess with the geography of the board".
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Old 2010-08-05, 18:01   Link #4111
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Arc 1, don't remember which of them said it, but the adults suggested that Shannon could've worn a Beatrice disguise. Arc 5 also has Erika herself making the theory that Natsuhi was dressing up as Beatrice.
Evidence of *-trice != evidence of Shkanon. Shkanon != Shkannontrice. Shkanon is a theory formed out of the exclusion of disproving evidence. If we are willing to accept that this is the truth, the door is open to any theory which operates on similar grounds.
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Old 2010-08-05, 18:04   Link #4112
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Well, Usagi was just answering your question, so maybe you asked the wrong one then...
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Old 2010-08-05, 18:09   Link #4113
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I'd feel more comfortable with my theory if I could actually find evidence supporting "a room inside a room", but for now the cups and coins is all I have.
To be definite about it we'd need to look up everything actually said about the composition of the cousins room across the entire text. I definitely don't believe that there's four beds in a single monolithic room though, as far as I'm aware hotels normally stop at three beds per bedroom and I don't believe the kids would not be separated by gender.
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Old 2010-08-05, 18:10   Link #4114
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Originally Posted by k//eternal View Post
In short, the fact that it was discovered early could be considered a "good sign".
I'll explain it a bit differently: Would you want to read a mystery where the identity of the culprit is obvious from the second chapter onward?

That's what this is like. There's no surprise anymore, so there is no longer any reason to read any more of it. After reading Ep6, this is now the only reason I can object to Shkanontrice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
So... according to this theory, everyone's decided to set up camp in the room with Battler's corpse in... somehow? "Battler's guestroom" was fairly well defined by red.
No. The theory is that Battler's guestroom is INSIDE the cousins' room.

The physical construction of the guestroom is clearly defined, but not the physical construction of the cousin's room.

Cups and coins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Shkanon is a theory formed out of the exclusion of disproving evidence. If we are willing to accept that this is the truth, the door is open to any theory which operates on similar grounds.
Actually, there's... quite a lot of evidence for it really. Just not solid evidence.
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Old 2010-08-05, 18:13   Link #4115
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Actually, there's... quite a lot of evidence for it really. Just not solid evidence.
The overwhelming majority of the evidence either does not appear until much later than everyone seems to think it does or is essentially "negative evidence;" that is, situations in which it could be contradicted are curiously avoided.

Certainly we can consider "negative" evidence as evidence. I'm not saying we can't. I'm saying when we do, and when we base supposedly all the answers (still waiting to know what those are of coruse) on it, we open ourselves to alternative explanations equally as undefined. One can say the same thing about most of the popular theories right now. They all essentially rely on some degree of "clues presented by not presenting a clue otherwise."
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Old 2010-08-05, 18:16   Link #4116
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The overwhelming majority of the evidence either does not appear until much later than everyone seems to think it does or is essentially "negative evidence;" that is, situations in which it could be contradicted are curiously avoided.

Certainly we can consider "negative" evidence as evidence. I'm not saying we can't. I'm saying when we do, and when we base supposedly all the answers (still waiting to know what those are of coruse) on it, we open ourselves to alternative explanations equally as undefined. One can say the same thing about most of the popular theories right now. They all essentially rely on some degree of "clues presented by not presenting a clue otherwise."
Well, Shkanon is also part of the glue that makes my theory work. Many parts of it break down with just Shannontrice or Kanontrice. Since understanding Beato's mind is a puzzle in itself, that's a valid clue.
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Old 2010-08-05, 18:16   Link #4117
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
I mean, unless you can find some way the whole of episode 6 was leading up to "the gamemaster is allowed to arbitrarily mess with the geography of the board".
But he sort of is.

Quote:
Erika had returned to the room on the second floor of the guesthouse that had been given to her.
The next room over was empty. It was very quiet there...
Even pressing her ear against the wall wouldn't enable her to listen in on the voices in the cousins' room.
Even with hearing power boosted by the detective's authority, it would probably be impossible to make out anything.

This room was the farthest down the hall, a long ways away from the cousins' room......

Erika: "And last time, my room was right next to theirs. ......I see...so he's placed my room farther away this time."
Dlanor: "It is a modification of the initial arrangement well covered by the powers of authority given to the Game MASTER. It is, perhaps, a quite reasonable first MOVE."
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Old 2010-08-05, 18:17   Link #4118
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Well, Shkanon is also part of the glue that makes my theory work. Many parts of it break down with just Shannontrice or Kanontrice. Since understanding Beato's mind is a puzzle in itself, that's a valid clue.
And what happens if Shkanon is true but everything else you concluded is not? Were you right, but for the wrong reason, or were you wrong for the right reason?
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Old 2010-08-05, 18:18   Link #4119
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They all essentially rely on some degree of "clues presented by not presenting a clue otherwise."
In other words, a Devil's Proof.

...I really hope Ryukishi never tries to abuse logic ever again.
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Old 2010-08-05, 18:19   Link #4120
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But he sort of is.
Don't you think it more likely that he just put Erika into a different room?
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