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Old 2010-08-06, 04:17   Link #4201
Moogleking
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
The question you should be asking then is why Battler didn't break the seal not why he didn't leave the room. I really don't have an answer. For whatever reason he just didn't.
I have given a reason for why he didn't, and several reasons for why he should have left the room.

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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
For meta Battler because he's making a move for his disappearance. What reason DOES piece Battler have to leave the room?

It's not a reason why he didn't it's just the method that proves he didn't. Maybe he didn't think he had to? BATTLER and Battler don't really have to be on the same page about this.
Have you given up on this being a real world event? Piece Battler (the only one that matters) wants to leave the room for one of several reasons:
If he is pranking, he wants his body not to be found. What is the best way to not be found? Leave the room.
If there is a murderer, he wants to get out of there. Hence, leave the room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Ah, I think this is the core of our misunderstanding. You propose that Battler couldn't leave the room, possibly because Erika said sorta so. However she was talking about the past in the context that "He couldn't have left the room because I have a proof he didn't" and not that he literally couldn't. In other words, he simply didn't leave the room, it's not that he couldn't.

Doing the bathroom setup must've taken quite some time, and that bathroom setup is real, and wasn't there when Erika searched the room. It's likely it took most of Battler's time. As for a benefit, I mentioned that's the only sure way he could've left and be certain he wouldn't bump into her.
.
Again, are we not talking about a real world set of events? He had every reason to leave the room. If there was a duct tape seal, he would have broken it. He didn't break it though. If he has every reason to leave the room, but didn't, it means he can't.

I already explained the bathroom setup. The only reason for setting it up is for the case where he CANNOT leave the room. If he has so much time to set up the bathroom thing, he would just leave the room so he doesn't get found setting up a stupid trap.
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Old 2010-08-06, 04:25   Link #4202
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Originally Posted by Moogleking View Post
This leaves us with C, he knew enough ahead of time that someone was coming for him, but could not escape the room.
Or alternately it's simply something rehearsed to begin with. The original plan was that he wanted to make it look like he disappeared so that it looked like he was the culprit, as sort of a game. To do this he'd have to make a false closed room to further confuse people. He probably originally planned for someone to come in looking for him, get hit by the shower and use that as a distraction to escape the room. He'd need somewhere to hide at first to make it seem like he'd gone missing, so they'd hear the running shower and open the bathroom door so that they'd be hit by the water and he'd have his distraction, that way he could escape through the now-open door. What he wasn't counting on was the chain on the door having been resealed with duct tape to keep him from leaving without being detected. So Erika's in the bathroom, he's stuck in the open staring at this door he can't get out of without making it obvious what happened. SUDDENLY Kanon appears outside the door, whispers "Hurry, let me in so we can switch places and confuse them", so he lets Kanon in, escapes, Kanon resets the chain and then hides or escapes or whatever he did.

This explanation of events make perfect sense even if you ignore the meta world. Even if they found Kanon, his corpse or Shannon dressed as Kanon or whatever, it wouldn't be battler and the room Kanon was supposed to be in would still be sealed, yet Kanon wouldn't be in it, thus causing further confusion.

It's all huge diversionary tactics. Remember, the goal is to prevent anyone from figuring out what happened, NOT to prevent anyone from formulating theories about what happened. As long as multiple suspects theoretically exist but neither can be proven to exist or not exist conclusively, the diversion has served its purpose. In this case that was casting doubt on if Battler is still alive and if so if he's the culprit. Which was achieved in the world of the gameboard, if not in the meta-world.

Essentially the entire purpose of this whole thing was to create a cat-box no one knows how to open. Because as long as you can't open it, you don't know if the cat is alive or dead.
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Old 2010-08-06, 04:26   Link #4203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
@UsagiTenpura: It was Bernkastel that said those reds so a search for Kinzo's corpse isn't necessary to proclaim them. Evidence like that is only necessary for Humans that are participating in the trial.
Somehow had missed that, thanks, that at least clears that out. I'm not convinced the gameboard of arc 5 makes sense tho, but that's a completely different thing. Actually it brings up the point that on the gameboard, there is no proof about Erika's claim. Tho I guess the idea is that the others doesn't mind anyway.
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Old 2010-08-06, 04:29   Link #4204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogleking View Post
If he is pranking, he wants his body not to be found. What is the best way to not be found?
In the real world what motive does he have to prank Erika?

Quote:
If there is a murderer, he wants to get out of there. Hence, leave the room.
In the real world why would he think the detective is a murderer?

Quote:
He had every reason to leave the room. If there was a duct tape seal, he would have broken it. He didn't break it though. If he has every reason to leave the room, but didn't, it means he can't.
Well there are two reasons for this then. He wants to preserve it as being a closed room. Or he wants to challenge Erika at a battle of wits. or it's all a coincidence.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogleking View Post
Again, are we not talking about a real world set of events?
Sure we are. All she said was that he had no chance to leave except when she entered the Bathroom.

So
  • Battler is playing solitaire in the closet.
  • Erika needs to use the bathroom.
  • Kanon enters and asks if he wants to play cards with the cousins.
  • Battler leaves to play cards.
  • Kanon redoes the chain lock.
  • Kanon doesn't exist in the guestroom.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-08-06 at 05:13.
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Old 2010-08-06, 04:29   Link #4205
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No, it does not make perfect sense.

Are you seriously going to pretend to disappear by hiding in the SAME ROOM? The door was not locked. The chain was broken. If you want to disappear, you leave the freakin' room. You don't hide in the closet and pray they don't open it.

If the plan is to disappear, he would not have hidden in the closet. That is just stupid. There is no reason at all to take the risk of being discovered while the person is searching the room.

Why do you guys keep thinking it is a closed room? It is not a closed room! The lock is broken! Saying it is a closed room in red does not provide a valid explanation for the real world events!
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Old 2010-08-06, 04:33   Link #4206
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Originally Posted by Moogleking View Post
Why do you guys keep thinking it is a closed room? It is not a closed room! The lock is broken!
A sealed room is not a closed room. It's just a room that proves he never left. And at this point it doesn't matter if the chain is broken or not. The chain lock only matters after she repairs it.
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Old 2010-08-06, 04:34   Link #4207
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You have still failed to provide any explanation for why Battler stayed in this room.
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Old 2010-08-06, 04:35   Link #4208
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You have still failed to provide any explanation for why Battler stayed in this room.
I did. I said he didn't want to leave.
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Old 2010-08-06, 04:36   Link #4209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
  • Battler is playing solitaire in the closet.
  • Erika needs to use the bathroom.
  • Kanon enters and asks if they want to play cards with the cousins.
  • Battler leaves to play cards.
  • Kanon redoes the chain lock.
Interesting, simple, inoffensive theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
  • Kanon doesn't exist.
What?
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Old 2010-08-06, 04:37   Link #4210
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But every single thing points to him wanting to leave. You can't say he stayed just because he wanted to and give no explanation.

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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Battler is playing solitaire in the closet.
Objection! Battler has no reason to play Solitaire in the closet. We have no evidence showing any reason to do this.
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Old 2010-08-06, 04:38   Link #4211
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
What?
I forgot to say 'in the guestroom'.
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Old 2010-08-06, 04:47   Link #4212
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Originally Posted by Moogleking View Post
But every single thing points to him wanting to leave
You gave reasons for him to want to leave. I know there are fantasy scenes suggesting he wanted to, but that was because of the logic error. Piece Battler doesn't know about this stuff.

Quote:
You can't say he stayed just because he wanted to and give no explanation
But I just did that. Well I actually I said he didn't want to not that he wanted to stay. A better way to say it is he didn't intend to leave until Kanon entered.


Quote:
Objection! Battler has no reason to play Solitaire in the closet. We have no evidence showing any reason to do this.
He chose a place that was comfortable to fake in like Dlanor said. But he got bored waiting for the day to end so he was entertaining himself. And then Kanon invited him out or unintentionally "rescued" him after he left.

The point is Erika never saw him.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-08-06 at 05:05.
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Old 2010-08-06, 04:51   Link #4213
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I think it's a very unfair argument against Judoh's idea since your's isnt supported by evidences either. Very debatable contra-positive isn't evidence of anything. Inventing concepts such as meta-tape to support your theory, from my POV, contradicts evidences presented to us.
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Old 2010-08-06, 04:53   Link #4214
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But what about the letter? Who could've placed it there if Battler didn't leave the room after all?
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Old 2010-08-06, 04:54   Link #4215
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At this point, I think you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

I gave clear reasons for why he wanted to leave. There are no reasons for him to want to stay.
Since the seal isn't broken, he is still in the room. The only reason he would stay when he wants to leave is that he cannot leave.

I don't think it gets any simpler than that.

If he is staying in the room for the sole purpose of entertaining himself, then this is a failure of a mystery. There is no evidence for that.

I don't know what more I can do than provide a theory with clear motives and explanations that matches up with the magic scenes as well. Meanwhile, the counterargument is "He felt like it."

I give up, I'm going to sleep for tonight.

EDIT: I just had to respond to this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
I think it's a very unfair argument against Judoh's idea since your's isnt supported by evidences either. Very debatable contra-positive isn't evidence of anything. Inventing concepts such as meta-tape to support your theory, from my POV, contradicts evidences presented to us.
How did I not give evidence!?
I explained how he has every reason to leave the room.
He is still in the room.
What more can I do?

Ok, now I'm done.
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Old 2010-08-06, 04:56   Link #4216
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Originally Posted by Moogleking View Post
I gave clear reasons for why he wanted to leave. There are no reasons for him to want to stay.
I didn't say he wanted to stay. Just that he didn't want to leave. He didn't intend to until later.
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Old 2010-08-06, 04:58   Link #4217
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I didn't say he wanted to stay. Just that he didn't want to leave. He didn't intend to until later.
I think you're just screwing with me now. Seriously? "He doesn't want to stay, he just wants to not leave."

Good grief. I'm done.
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Old 2010-08-06, 05:06   Link #4218
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I wonder why did you both ignore my question. If he didn't leave, who could've placed the letter?
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Old 2010-08-06, 05:07   Link #4219
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But what about the letter? Who could've placed it there if Battler didn't leave the room after all?
The both of us are already claiming it doesn't exist. It was at the front door so it only makes sense to put it there if you only want Erika to see it. If you wanted to get Erika's attention why not just place the letter where everyone can see it so they can eventually tell her about it?

And nobody here is claiming Battler never left at all. It's just a fact that he didn't leave before Erika broke the seal.
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Old 2010-08-06, 05:09   Link #4220
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Originally Posted by LaplaceNoMa View Post
But what about the letter? Who could've placed it there if Battler didn't leave the room after all?
Kanon. That would be, in the idea that they're playing a prank and this is why they're giving Erika a letter, a good reason to leave by the window.
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