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Old 2010-08-07, 15:30   Link #4321
UsagiTenpura
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Since reality doesn't follow knox 8th, if you consider the gameboards the same as the reality, they becomes unsolvable.

I never claimed that anything was simply possible to occur in the story just because it's a story. I said it has implications on the gameboards that wouldn't apply to a normal reality. I said also that those who reject the idea that it's a game arbitrarily decided to deny all that is presented to us that tells us so. In short this is what we're constantly told.

Umineko is the tale of a game between Battler and Beatrice.

And we are also told.

You must try to figure out the rules of these games.
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Old 2010-08-07, 15:41   Link #4322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Since reality doesn't follow knox 8th, if you consider the gameboards the same as the reality, they becomes unsolvable.

I never claimed that anything was simply possible to occur in the story just because it's a story. I said it has implications on the gameboards that wouldn't apply to a normal reality. I said also that those who reject the idea that it's a game arbitrarily decided to deny all that is presented to us that tells us so. In short this is what we're constantly told.

Umineko is the tale of a game between Battler and Beatrice.

And we are also told.

You must try to figure out the rules of these games.
See, this is what I don't get. You're trying to use meta-stuff (Knox's rules) to say that the games don't follow the rules of reality.

That just doesn't make sense. You can't say that the individual games don't abide by the rules of reality just because of what someone said in the meta-world.

The meta-world things can be said because they match up with what actually happened.
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Old 2010-08-07, 15:55   Link #4323
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
But wait a second... are you saying that a detective novel must actually have been a real event for it to be solvable? That's absurd. I mean.. the last time I read a Sherlock Holmes novel, I *know* it's fictional AND I know it's solvable.
Actually, most Sherlock Holmes novels/stories deliberately withhold information from you, so they're not really solvable beforehand.

But aside from that, mystery novels are supposed to be logical in regards to why people do things. Even if people are pretending to be someone they aren't, their actions still have to make sense. This is why I hate the "Shkanon changes randomly to evade the red text" argument. "Shkanon" doesn't know that there is any red restricting their actions, so what they do still has to follow an internal logic.

For example, let's take the closed room puzzle at the end of EP6. Shkanon evades the red, but it is not a satisfactory explanation for many reasons.

1. There must have been something to prompt Shannon to take on the Kanon persona, but there is nothing in the text evident of this.
We see Kanon "melting" away in the next room, and this is implied to be because of the resolution of the Love Trial. However, the love trial erases Kanon at Shannon's expense, so the logical conclusion is that Shannon no longer has access to Kanon. This doesn't seem to be the case.
Not only that, but for the love trial to be the trigger, we need to have something on the board that is analogous to it. For example, we see "Shannon" coming to a decision about something, so she seems to be thinking very hard about something, or she's talking to George--ANYTHING the provides a hint to the so-called "inner struggle" that is supposedly going on for her body.

2. We need Kanon to have a reason to go to the guest room where Battler is.
This is harder than it looks. There are any number of reasons you can put forth, but none of them have any narrative backing.
"Kanon gets worried about where Erika is"--where is a line of text that implies this.
"Kanon needs to go get something in the room where Battler is"--why doesn't he use the door?
"Kanon is escaping the room because he fears for his own life from the people that are in it"--he told George that the core body is male, idunno? Any proof of this? Anyone? Bueller? (Actually, if Shkanon fears for their life, there's still no logical reason for her not to escape as Shannon.)

3. We need to explain why Kanon died or switched back to Shannon.
Is Kanon better at running in the rain? Only Shannon likes to hide in closets? He was mortally wounded and wanted to hide in a place he didn't think anyone would look? (In that case, where is the implication in the text? The person that attacked him would have had to have been in the room before he broke out of the window. And why didn't he choose one of the other rooms? Even if we assume that he found the bodies, the only person that would have killed them would be Erika, and I'm not about to go hiding in the same room as where the murderer is.)

4. What defines "Kanon" as "Kanon"?
Does he need to be wearing the clothes? That gives a sort of funny mental image of Shannon opening the closet and pulling out her spare Kanon suit and applying make up before jumping out the window and rushing out into the rain. Are there times in the story where "Kanon" is actually wearing the "Shannon" outfit and vice versa?

Let's break this down as an example.

The true mastermind is in the same room as Shannon. Perhaps they attack everyone and Shannon manages to escape out the window. Perhaps she even sustained wounds and the Shannon personality "died" as a result, leaving only Kanon. Kanon, frantic with fear, rushes to the mansion, finds the corpses, freaks out even more, runs to Battler's room to check/hide. There he finds Battler, lets him out, and hides in the closet, eventually succumbing to his wounds.

There we go. Only one problem. There is no proof. Therefore what I outlined is worthless as an explanation.

The end of EP5 shows you how to "fight", aka, "theorize". You have to take your conclusions from the text and back up your line of thinking with evidence. What I just gave is possible, but nothing more. Beato would make hash of it in two seconds.
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Old 2010-08-07, 16:07   Link #4324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
*snip*
Hooray, someone else willing to try to think about why people are doing things!
You've already missed the most important thing in episode 6 though.

Why are they faking deaths to begin with?
The adults are all clearly teaming up to fake these deaths. The idea they're doing it for the sole purpose of giving a mystery to Erika doesn't cut it.
What else is there? In my opinion, the only thing left is they're trying to scare certain people and get information out of them. The people who aren't in on it are the servants, doc, and the kids. Gohda is in on it as well, since he was in the mansion when the adults came up with the plan.

Who is the most likely to have information about the gold/Beatrice? Genji. He's been around forever. Notice who is in the room with Genji. Rudolph (has a gun), Krauss (has a gun), Gohda (a large man, also in on it), and Jessica (who just wants to be with her father).
They are most likely interrogating Genji in that room while Hideyoshi is watching everyone else.

Now that we have a basis, we can reason about the rest of what goes on in the episode.
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Old 2010-08-07, 16:09   Link #4325
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Exactly.People are providing evidence that never happened,and it's just what they think happened during or before the game.People swallow it like evidence,and it becomes ''truth''.Most of Shkannons evidence starts out like

''MAYBE,after unknown reason X,Shannon developed another personality called Kannon,for unknown reason X.''

Then they begin to solve the murder.


EDIT:Ninja'd. x_x
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Old 2010-08-07, 16:12   Link #4326
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Moogleking you act like nobody has ever tried to look at motives for faking their deaths before. You're blatantly wrong about that. We just don't have a list of irrefutable concrete motives for every person who has ever faked in all the games.

With Kyrie for example it's clear she has something to gain from faking in Krauss's study.
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Old 2010-08-07, 16:17   Link #4327
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I've been following this thread for about 50 pages, and have not seen a single post that tried to start with the beginning of game 6 and logically explain what happened.

So forgive me if I missed it.
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Old 2010-08-07, 16:33   Link #4328
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Originally Posted by Moogleking View Post
Why are they faking deaths to begin with?
I think the really important question is, "why is Battler helping them?"
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Old 2010-08-07, 16:38   Link #4329
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Abrupt Love Trial idea.

Shannon and Kanon are separate people. One of them is definitely an illegitimate child of Kinzo and his intended heir. It is impossible to determine with certainty which one it is, even for them. In essence, they exist in a state of superposition, as currently, both are that heir and neither is that heir simultaneously. Only one couple can proceed to marriage due to this fact, as status of the family head is a required condition for it to work.

Moetrice is a personification of the rules of the board and possesses no physical existence. For her happiness with Battler it is a requirement that neither Shannon nor Kanon are that heir, because Battler needs to be one.
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Last edited by Oliver; 2010-08-07 at 16:45. Reason: silly typo
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Old 2010-08-07, 16:50   Link #4330
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Interesting idea. I might try to say one of them is an illegitimate grandchild of Kinzo, just to make it a bit more reasonable.

I think one of them has to be Asumu's Battler, for sure. Not sure who the other one could be.

So the love game is actually a battle for inheriting the position of family head. This explains why George and Jessica are so tightly involved.

Also, if you assume the Kinzo really wanted Battler to be the head (especially if he is the child of Beatrice #2 that fell off a cliff), it fits pretty well.
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Old 2010-08-07, 16:54   Link #4331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
I think the really important question is, "why is Battler helping them?"
Good point. I hadn't thought too much on that point.
I also think it is interesting that Maria is with Battler. If we think Jessica/George might be involved in the plots a bit more, then it makes sense why the adults, suspecting those 2, would want to get Battler/Maria away from them.
I don't think that completely explains it, though.
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Old 2010-08-07, 17:25   Link #4332
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Yes, exactly. Why does Battler die on the FFT? Till EP5 everything was pointing to "Battler is not involved and always one of the last standing"
Another Question is who is Erika?
No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game.
Why is her name Erika anyway? She isn't Japanese or it is a fake name (Erika is written in Katakana)
Krauss, Rudolf, Hideyoshi, and Gohda...were not involved in the murders of Natsuhi, Eva, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, and Battler Why could he say "involved in the murders" in red? We know that "Erika" killed them already when Battler said that. The Question is, who killed Battler? Not Erika.

I think its obvious that Shannon is a illegamite child, or at least is the next heir. Maybe even Kanon. Why? besides Shannon we know of no one who has a one winged eagle tattoo. On clothes okey but a tattoo? not even all the fancy clothes from Jessica have the eagle but a tattoo? Servants normaly do not serve long in this Family and Gohda doesn't even have one, that's a bit extreme. Like saying either "you are one of us" or "you are our property for the rest of your life". Natsuhi's heart hates her so i'd say it's Krauss child or under Krauss/Kinzo's Wing and a 6 year old servant is strange. (even if her age is fake she couldn't be older then 19 which makes her a 9 year old servant)
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Old 2010-08-07, 17:37   Link #4333
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I just re-read EP6 and...just before the guestroom truned into Meta-world with the background and stuff... :
Spoiler for What:
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Old 2010-08-07, 17:45   Link #4334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DgBarca View Post
I just re-read EP6 and...just before the guestroom truned into Meta-world with the background and stuff... :
Spoiler for What:
Fits perfectly with the idea that Kanon came to confront "Erika" and they had a gunfight.
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Old 2010-08-07, 17:47   Link #4335
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Fits perfectly with the idea that Kanon came to confront "Erika" and they had a gunfight.
Erishannon ? or Sherikanontrice ?Or Shannon is everyone ?
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Old 2010-08-07, 17:56   Link #4336
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My thoughts on episode 6 is that Erika represents the combined actions of Shannon and Kanon. At some point, Kanon stops being Erika (around when they start killing everyone after they separate from the group at the guesthouse), probably after being shown the truth about Beatrice by Natsuhi (what the mirror is an analogy for).

The cup and coins riddle is a big hint here. The riddle shows you how you can get 6 from only 5. You get it by combining the cups together. You don't get it by taking 5 and splitting one in half, which is what Shkannon tries to do.

This also hints that there may be a 3rd person involved, since you get the extra 1 in the cups riddle by having 3 close together (2 in one cup inside another cup that has 1). This 3rd person could be the mastermind, who is leading Shannon and Kanon around. I don't think it is really necessary to have this person, but it is interesting to think about.

You can also solve the cups riddle with only 3, 1 each in a cup, and all 3 cups inside each other. This gives us a hierarchy, where you could have Mastermind>Shannon>Kanon, or something like that.
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Old 2010-08-07, 18:41   Link #4337
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Originally Posted by Moogleking View Post
You seem to be taking what I said slightly out of context. The detective novel must be based in a world where events and characters are real and their motivations are real. Everything must be presented as if it were real within the world of the story.
Wait... if you're talking about EP6, there isn't really a guarantee that it's solvable. I think it may be solvable but some of us are thinking that it was penned by a rather hack-ish writer and thus is not really up to quality.

What is solvable is EP1-4. There's no guarantee that the quality of the logic behind the game continues to hold up. In fact, we've been told several things about Beatrice's game vs. Lambda's game. And we've been told that Hachijou claimed to have written EP3-6. (Although we think she's lying.) So there does exist a difference in authors...

The thing is, we still think EP5-6 can provide clues (or answers as Ryukishi said) for EP1-4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogleking View Post
See, this is what I don't get. You're trying to use meta-stuff (Knox's rules) to say that the games don't follow the rules of reality.

That just doesn't make sense. You can't say that the individual games don't abide by the rules of reality just because of what someone said in the meta-world.

The meta-world things can be said because they match up with what actually happened.
The rules of reality can be broken by inferior writers. We typically laugh at such writers... like... the idea of cavemen learning to fly a Harrier Jet in Battlefield Earth. Etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogleking View Post
I've been following this thread for about 50 pages, and have not seen a single post that tried to start with the beginning of game 6 and logically explain what happened.
If this were the Spoilers Thread, you may have to go back about 400-500 pages just to get to the beginning of the discussion on EP6. (Although at that time it was only out in Japanese.) Seems like the amount of chatter regarding the game goes up exponentially...
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Old 2010-08-07, 18:50   Link #4338
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wow you really lost me, you made it so complicated O.O

what is the problem with everyone tring to trick erika into a mystery game?

why are you questioning the existence of erika? it was already delcred in red that she is a guest, the 18 guest that dosn't exist outside the game board, and she dosn't change anything about the game.

the all thing with shanon-kanon is just rediculus! do you really belive in that?
that theory is on the same level of the boomb theory from the chapel in EP2!
kanon is kanon! shanon is shanon! shanon is in love with george, and kanon is in love with jesica.

kanon's reason to go out from the room? it was to see what happend to battaler!after all they all playing a mystery game! isn't it posible (and even more logicly) that kanon is a part of the pretending game?

who killed the 5 people? it was erika! she killed them so she will be able to be 100% sure they are dead, with 0% of miss.

battaler isn't dead on the EP6...

it look like you guys didnt really try to understand magic and just denid it by saing "anything that is not red is magic, even if its obvius that the sun is shining, if the red wont say it, its night!"
guh thous theorys are so loveless >.> when i saw EP 6 i was sure im one of thous who are lacking love, but thous theorys are even more loveless then me...
i mean, you dont need to deny every thing, actully if you will belive what its said in magic you will have more chance of sloving the riddels! (of course if you will belive that thous are the answers its not going to help you, you need to try and understand what happens in the magic scene! dont just deny it!)

for example the magical love contest. its can easly be explained if you understand the background of the people that present at the contest.
kanon is a servent.
shanon is a servent.
george is the master's reletive.
jessica is the master's dughter.
battler is normal.
beatrice is a presonification of the ruls (+ she is dead)
now let me ask, if you are the master, full of self respect and status...
find out that your reletive is going out with your servent, what will you do?
well most of the time its will be ok.
and now you find out that another servent is going out with your only dughter! i can say with 100% of cretainity, you wont let that reletionship happen! (if 2 servents that are brother and sister in a way are to involed with the family its look like they are after the money and status...)
in beatrice and (normal)battler case, beatrice is not real (or at least she isnt living on the humen world) therfore its imposible for them to be happy ever after.

about the cup riddel, if you put a cup inside a cup and on one cup you put a coin (that what i understood from what you said) its wont change the fact that in the bottom cup there isnt coins.
the right answer is to cut one of the coins in the middel and create to coins from it (its easyer if you know that there are yens -japanese coins- that have hole in them.) BTW i can't see how that riddel from the riddel book is a hint.

Quote:
Wait... if you're talking about EP6, there isn't really a guarantee that it's solvable. I think it may be solvable but some of us are thinking that it was penned by a rather hack-ish writer and thus is not really up to quality.

What is solvable is EP1-4. There's no guarantee that the quality of the logic behind the game continues to hold up. In fact, we've been told several things about Beatrice's game vs. Lambda's game. And we've been told that Hachijou claimed to have written EP3-6. (Although we think she's lying.) So there does exist a difference in authors...

The thing is, we still think EP5-6 can provide clues (or answers as Ryukishi said) for EP1-4.
thenks for saying it! i really didn't know how to start to talk about it! (lol i have alot thing to say XD)
well first, i want to say something that you might not agree with me but its the most logicaly thing i can assum about this all story.
first of all, the 1st EP started it all. after all, in EP1 there was no magic (maybe 1% at most and even then it ws faint) in other words EP1 was real life accident in wich every one died (as far as we know). the otherworld happen (tea party) in wich we can see batteler (who already died) denying beatrice, and beatrice started the game. in other words, the 2nd game, 3rd game 4th game, 5th game, 6th game...etc are not the real world, they are gameboard, simply GAME between 2 people. in other words battler is dead and will stay dead and keep be dead for the reast of his death. if the game end before every one die, that wont change anything since they are dead once the game is over (im tring to say that they can only be alive when you play the game, once the gme is done\over never minde the winner, the pawns are dead)

the 3rd game + were inveted by that Hachijou, an aouthor that understood what happend from the 1st and 2nd games. and give tips to thous who still didn't. in other words, game 3+ are all her invetion (and ange too is her invention in a way)
in other word i belive that the core to this story is the 1st EP the real game. (of course its jut a theory of mine however its sound pretty logical to me.)

Last edited by serverwolf; 2010-08-07 at 19:07.
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Old 2010-08-07, 18:57   Link #4339
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why are you questioning the existence of erika? it was already delcred in red that she is a guest, the 18 guest that dosn't exist outside the game board, and she dosn't change anything about the game.
Well this has been a theory that's been around a long time actually. None of what Erika does ever makes sense if she's a human person. She makes more sense as a witch than she does as a human. And one way people tried to see how part of Beato's game was in game 5 was to connect denying the witch with Erika's character.

Also like I said pages and pages ago "18th human on Rokkenjima" would be a title with that theory. Those reds have unsaid contexts so to make sense of them they have to either have different contexts or similar unsaid ones that make it so those reds don't contradict.

some of you guys are going to have to reread through the hundreds of pages in this thread and the spoiler thread to be up to date on speculations for stuff like this. We people who got spoilered or read with a english to japanese dictionary had half a year to discuss this before the translation patch came out.
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Old 2010-08-07, 19:06   Link #4340
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Although I can barely understand your post, I think you're taking way too much at face value.

The problem with everyone planning this elaborate fake death game just to make a mystery for Erika is preposterous. This completely ignores everything that happened in the first 4 games, the money problems the adults have, the gold, everything. It is just stupid to think that they are playing a trick on Erika.

I'll explain the cups and coins riddle:
You have 5 coins, and must put 1 coin in 1 cup, 2 coins in another cup, and 3 coins in the third cup.
First, you put 1 coin in each cup. Now, you put one of the cups inside the other cup. Now you have 1 cup with 1 coin in it, 1 cup with 1 coin inside another cup, and 2 coins inside the bottom cup (one in it, and one inside the cup that is in it).
Now, you put the third cup inside the 2nd one. Now you have 1 cup with 1 coin on top, 1 cup with 2 coins in the middle (1 in it, and 1 in the cup above it), and 1 cup with 3 coins on the bottom (1 in it, 1 in the first cup in it, 1 inside the cup in that one).

Now, the riddle is presented to say that there are 3 cups and 5 coins, and you must use them all to make the 1,2,3 scenario. You can do this by putting 1 coin in 1 cup, and 2 coins in the other 2. Then you put the 1 cup with 1 coin inside a cup with 2 coins.

In this way, you can create 6 from 5. Just like how on Rokkenjima there are 18 from 17.

Note that if you cut a coin in half, it doesn't work, because then you have 0.5 coins in some cups, which isn't the required number.

Last edited by Moogleking; 2010-08-07 at 19:26.
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