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Old 2010-08-17, 08:34   Link #4501
rogerpepitone
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"dies/doesn't exist" works with Kinzo because Bern started by saying "Kinzo refers to the living Kinzo."

One other thing I was thinking about.
In Episode 4, piece-Beatrice claims people died because of Battler's sin.
In Episode 6, Kyrie refers to how Asumu's death was inevitable once Kyrie decided to kill her.
The deaths of the people on the island became inevitable once the bomb was set.

Conclusion: Battler's sin is related to the bomb, not the epitaph murders.
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Old 2010-08-17, 14:28   Link #4502
Zork
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Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
Yes, I'm familiar with that. So, Shkanon went in the closet, and in that instant the "Kanon" personality died for reasons unknown. Since it was a battle of twisted logic, that's acceptable.
ShKanon isn't actually necessary for this specific trick. Kanon is a pseudonym for a servant of the Ushiromiya family - so-called furniture. What happens if he quits his job? If ShKanon can arbitrarily discard a personality, Kanon can discard a pseudonym.

The problem with this is that, unlike the ShKanon theory, it does not explain how Kanon escaped from the sealed cousins' room. For this you need an additional theory and the only obvious possibility is that Kanon's real name matches the name of someone else. This allows him to evade Erika's "everyone else" clause and be outside of the cousins' room when she seals it.
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Old 2010-08-17, 16:21   Link #4503
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Then lets go back to Beatrice and Battler's red truth at the end of that duel, which for me indicts its Shkanon
Hi, pleased to meet you! I am Furudo Erika, the detective!! I may be an uninvited guest, but please, welcome me!!
I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!

......Sorry, but... Even if you do join us-
There are 17 people.


Erika is the 18th human, as stated. However, Beatrice and Battler deny that by saying that even if the 18th person DOES join, there are still only 17 people. Meaning that Erika makes 17.
Meaning that someone on the island isn't really there. To me, the only option is that one of the servants aren't really there. Hence, Shannon = Kanon
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Old 2010-08-17, 16:31   Link #4504
Jaden
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ShKanon isn't actually necessary for this specific trick. Kanon is a pseudonym for a servant of the Ushiromiya family - so-called furniture. What happens if he quits his job? If ShKanon can arbitrarily discard a personality, Kanon can discard a pseudonym.
That's effective, but the Shkanon theory has much more foreshadowing in this episode and it's supported by the "There are 17 people." in the end of this episode.

Beatrice also said All people can only use their own names!!, implying that Kanon is more his name than a title? Still room for error there though. There have been many servants from the orphanage who have been given a name with the 'on' character, but no case has been presented where the same name would be given to two servants.

Battler constructed this game from his insight to the truth, and his mystery also followed the Knox decalogue at least until Erika forced him to rewrite stuff in the guest room. That's why I think the hints given in this story, short as it was, are more reliable than in earlier episodes, and there can be no cheap deceptions like people with the same name.
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Old 2010-08-17, 17:20   Link #4505
confused_kitsune
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Huh, so I actually got a bit attached to my theory that Sayo/Yoshiya, while being separate people, can each play the roles of both Kanon and Shannon, one at a time. Presume absurdly that the disguise is perfect, nobody notices it, since it is not usually used, being in itself an abnormal case. It's usually Sayo that plays the role of 'Shannon' and Yoshiya the one that plays 'Kanon'. (Note that when I use 'Kanon', 'Shannon' respectively I am referring to the roles/pseudonyms themselves which are not actually names.) That way, I hope to avoid the All people can only use their own names!! red. What I'm trying to say is that the words 'Kanon' and 'Shannon' imply two possibilities. For example,

Shannon refers to the person meant to play the role 'Shannon', meaning Sayo.
'Shannon' refers to the role itself, which can be played by both Sayo and Yoshiya.

However, there is no distinction in the game between Shannon and 'Shannon'. When using the word Shannon, the red may refer to either. It's like having multiple Kinzos. Kinzo is alive. Yes, but which Kinzo? Certainly not Kinzo Ushiromiya. Going by Battler's wild 'Kinzo is a title' theory, a case in which the word Kinzo may refer to any of them is constructed. It's not fair, but it's a way of avoiding the red text.

Like I said some time ago in the speculation thread, Ep 6 is a case in which both end up playing the role of 'Shannon'. The Shannon confirmed in Ep 6 in the first room is actually Yoshiya dressed as Shannon. (Again, presume it's a perfect disguise, nobody notices and so on.)

To be consistent with the game of Ep 6 so far, the original person meant to play the role of 'Shannon', meaning Sayo, is actually portrayed as Kanon, using Kanon's sprite. But

Sayo and Yoshiya cannot play the same role at the same time. That itself would be the logical error. People would definitely notice something odd with two Shannon's and no Kanon. No disguise could fool that.

On the other hand, since it is never confirmed who actually is in the other room, the possibility of a second 'Shannon' person cannot be denied. Say this Shannon person gets out of the other room, changes clothes into Kanon in order to not create the contradiction, then goes to save Battler. Now,

When Sayo (dressed as 'Kanon', represented by Kanon's sprite) enters the guest room, the role 'Kanon' actually does that. Therefore all the red truth confirming that. At the same time, Kanon (not 'Kanon', but the person originally meant to be playing the role of 'Kanon', meaning Yoshiya) doesn't. Leading to the red confirming that Kanon does not exist in the guest room.

Now I'm trying to apply this to the final reds.

I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!
There is no contradiction in this itself. Counting Erika, there are indeed 18 humans on Rokkenjima (Sayo and Yoshiya included).

Even if you do join us-
There are 17 people.

Now I'm trying to look at it this way. Ep 6 presented a case in which, at the start of the game, both Sayo and Yoshiya ended up playing the same role, that of 'Shannon'. There is nobody represented as Kanon in this world. That would lead to 'Kanon doesn't exist', which actually gives an accurate representation of this current gameboard... if only I can work a bit on the timing of those reds, I guess.
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Old 2010-08-17, 18:06   Link #4506
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
the Shkanon theory has much more foreshadowing
Sometimes I get tired of people claiming this. This is just not true. Even in episode 6 alternative theories for shkanon are hinted at on and off.There is actually equal foreshadowing for shkanon and it's alternatives. And BTW in the question arcs the foreshadowing for shkanon, and premises for people not existing, names, etc are very scarce. They pale in comparison to the amount of character descriptions and suspicious implications there are in the narration.

Quote:
and it's supported by the "There are 17 people."
Even if you do join us-There are 17 people.


You can take the "even if" as meaning "regardless" Or it doesn't matter if your here or not. So no it doesn't do that. Since the context of the red is not stated it can mean a number of things.
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Old 2010-08-17, 18:35   Link #4507
Jaden
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The main reason I say it has more foreshadowing is the big riddle of episode 6, "Why can only either Kanon or Shannon succeed in love". The only sensible explanation to me is that they're one person. When Battler&Beato in the end say that there are 17 people, it felt like a confirmation to this.

As long as that's not said in red there can always be the suprise "circumstance X" that allows for another explanation. Also there can still be 18 people with wordplay... But since Battler was supposed to be revealing everything in this episode, is there any need to read between the lines like that?
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Old 2010-08-17, 18:47   Link #4508
Judoh
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The only sensible explanation to me is that they're one person. When Battler&Beato in the end say that there are 17 people, it felt like a confirmation to this.
Problem is that what the mainstream theories tag on to the "sensible solution" is the part that's not sensible for it to be the solution. For me and others It felt like the opposite of this because this seems to be the red that finishes Erika off. Which no one wants to explain.

Quote:
As long as that's not said in red there can always be the suprise "circumstance X" that allows for another explanation. Also there can still be 18 people with wordplay... But since Battler was supposed to be revealing everything in this episode, is there any need to read between the lines like that?
I don't think any kind of word play can raise the number to 18 at this point. However this episode seems to be made to incite a debate between the fans on what they want to beleive. That's why he implies things in a round about way from beginning to end.

The author wouldn't directly say anything or half his fanbase would lynch him. So he's allowing it.
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Old 2010-08-17, 19:12   Link #4509
Judoh
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Also I don't like the idea of Battler & Beato erasing one of their friends to ultimately save themselves or "to get even" with the antagonist. Both of them are better than that.

It also leaves it open for Erika to reappear later, which I'm completely against.
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Old 2010-08-17, 20:44   Link #4510
Helmet-kun
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...While we bringing Shkanon up, has anyone mentioned that Shannon and Kanon were never seen apart when Erika came along in Ep5 and became the detective?
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Old 2010-08-17, 21:13   Link #4511
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Helmet-kun View Post
...While we bringing Shkanon up, has anyone mentioned that Shannon and Kanon were never seen apart when Erika came along in Ep5 and became the detective?
Merely mentioning it would be an understatement. That's a topic that's been heavily debated about in episode 5.
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Old 2010-08-17, 21:22   Link #4512
Misuzu
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Problem is that what the mainstream theories tag on to the "sensible solution" is the part that's not sensible for it to be the solution. For me and others It felt like the opposite of this because this seems to be the red that finishes Erika off. Which no one wants to explain.
It doesn't explain Erika's line about facing the truth about herself either, unless you want to argue that she has to face the truth of being too stupid to realize that Shannon and Kanon are the same person.
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Old 2010-08-18, 01:23   Link #4513
k//eternal
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I tossed together a scenario regarding Kanon's motive for heading over to the guest room some time ago... basically, the Shannon outfit was left in Battler's room. The assumption is that the shift between Shannon and Kanon is not entirely controllable, but rather compulsive. The idea is that Shkanon is more or less addicted to changing between the two, and the servants' timetable is manipulated by Genji to accomodate this, with Kumasawa helping out with some chores (as often speculated).

Kanon is compelled to retrieve the outfit, having not foreseen everyone being corraled into the two rooms. He possibly confesses his problem to the others, dissolving the illusion of Kanon as an individual (seen in a magic scene), and rushes off to retrieve the outfit, which is in the closet. He changes into it and becomes Shannon.

I think it's more fair than "Shkanon is whichever one s/he wants to be at any particular time, and happened to kill the Kanon personality upon entering the closet." The former would be a cheap gimmick that is almost meaningless on the board, and the latter... why would that happen, just to evade some red text s/he shouldn't be aware of?
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Old 2010-08-18, 03:24   Link #4514
Judoh
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It does sound better at first glance, but there is a problem with it that all shkanon theories have that ruins your motive.

At the time the next room over was sealed, Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo were in it. And the number of people in the next room over was five. No one existed there except for those to whom those five names referred!

Because of this I can conclude that Kanon did not exist in the next room over.

That means that Shkanon was dressed as Shannon at the time, which means there is no reason to go to the guestroom for a Shannon outfit because the red requires that shkanon was wearing it when it left via the window. And it brings us back to the question of how many outfits is Shkanon frikkin hiding!?

Ironically this same red presents a silly little red evasion trick for the everyone else red if you beleive that if Kanon is dead he doesn't exist.

So with a harcore version of this theory, If someone were to be murdered in the next room over, for the sake of argument let's say it's "Jessica', the murder victim wouldn't "exist" in the next room over, but they also wouldn't be in the cousin's room because their corpse is in the next room over.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-08-18 at 03:38.
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Old 2010-08-18, 06:17   Link #4515
Azule
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The problem with this theory is how Erika's red is a contradiction with the other red.
Its never mentioned which one it is, be it there are 18 "people" or 18 bodies.
This also means there could be 17 "people" or 17 bodies.
If we take Erika's to mean 18 "bodies" then its correct, and if we take Beatrice and Battler's red to mean 17 people, then the whole timing issue is solved. But then that leads to the whole closed room guesthouse situation- Erika couldn't figure out how Kanon left the guestroom, meaning he either was never there, or there's a way out which isnt through the seals.
However, if Beatrice and Battler's red means 17 bodies, then ShKanon can't work out without a visable way to exit the closed rooms which are confirmed sealed
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Old 2010-08-18, 06:31   Link #4516
Jaden
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True, Shkanon has to be hiding many outfits. I could construct a motive for him/her to rescue Battler though...

First, why did she leave next room over through the window?

- Asked to go relieve Battler for the next step in their detective game
- Asked to check up on the murdered people who are supposed to be playing dead but aren't answering their phones
- Revealed her secret, got thrown out of the window by furious George
- By her own will

Next, why change to Kanon before rescuing Battler?

- Her wig was blown off by the wind, so she looks like Kanon with the raincoat
- Shannon outfit was otherwise ruined
- Afraid of getting groped by Battler
- Compulsive transformation disorder X
- Had revealed her secret, so why not

How to disappear from the closet?

- Transformed back to Shannon to protect her secret
- Died
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Old 2010-08-18, 08:16   Link #4517
rogerpepitone
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Or perhaps, once Erika broke character by killing people, Battler was no longer constrained to have anyone else behave in-character.
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Old 2010-08-18, 08:23   Link #4518
k//eternal
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It does sound better at first glance, but there is a problem with it that all shkanon theories have that ruins your motive.

At the time the next room over was sealed, Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo were in it. And the number of people in the next room over was five. No one existed there except for those to whom those five names referred!

Because of this I can conclude that Kanon did not exist in the next room over..
It's a problem with this particular one, but not "all Shkanon theories", because there's a stated time for who's in the room when it's sealed. Regardless of the shifting mechanism, in most cases it isn't a problem for Kanon to be the one who leaves the room.

An alternate version is that she can "change" without the outfit, but it's still compulsive and doing so is mentally distressing because changing outfits is part of the addiction/compulsion. Shannon is observed in the room, but she's mentally Kanon at the time. He explains his secret and why he needs to go retrieve the Kanon outfit, but upon entering the guest room, discovers that Erika is in it before he can retrieve it successfully, and hides in the closet.

In this case, it probably isn't in the closet. Could be in the bed or something, Erika isn't the detective anyway so it doesn't matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Ironically this same red presents a silly little red evasion trick for the everyone else red if you beleive that if Kanon is dead he doesn't exist.

So with a harcore version of this theory, If someone were to be murdered in the next room over, for the sake of argument let's say it's "Jessica', the murder victim wouldn't "exist" in the next room over, but they also wouldn't be in the cousin's room because their corpse is in the next room over.
I suppose that's another reason to not like the "he went in the closet and died" theory, but it really isn't relevant here.
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Old 2010-08-18, 09:13   Link #4519
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Three bodies entered or left the room
Only Erika and Kanon entered the room
Only Battler left the room

Ep 4 hint: there are probably 2 Battlers
Ep 6 hint: one name could refer to several people

Two people left the room: Battler and Battler
One person entered the room: Kanonerika.

The trick with the shower was used to wash off the makeup from Erika to make her become 'Kanon'. Therefore, even if they welcome Erika, she's still just Kanon.

Simply by using the same logic Shkannon-fans use, this level of reasoning is possible for Laplace's demon. What do you think, everyone?
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Old 2010-08-18, 10:39   Link #4520
k//eternal
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I've often said that due to the "three bodies" not being "up to three" any Ghosterika-type theory would require a duplicate of either Kanon or Battler (namewise). Any explanation like that is functional for those reds, but probably requires some kind of background on who the duplicate is; EP4's possible extra Battler is one.

That said, though, it's more likely that (due to all the personality talk in EP6) "Ushiromiya Battler" is effectively a persona invented by Asumu and forced on him via a lie he's been told all his life, one of the parameters for which is that Asumu is his mother. Kind of like how a Shkanon theory might assert that they're parameters of the personalities that Kanon is male and Shannon is female.

While we're on the topic, I had a kind of crack theory that Battler moved in with his grandparents when he was 13, and Asumu's last name is Amakusa.
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