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Old 2010-01-02, 05:17   Link #461
Marion
The Great Dine
 
 
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I agree with Chrono.

Remember, Hachijou didn't write the bottled letters for EP 1-2. Those were written by Maria's Beatrice, with the signature "Maria". This means that murders didn't happen and the fact there are two different stories written by the same person seems to suggest something important.
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Old 2010-01-02, 05:34   Link #462
Archer
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You can't say that this development didn't come out from nowhere, since the entirety of the Ep. 4 Tips was spent hinting at something like this. You should try looking at the Tips for Creator Witches and Beatrice's Titles and Grimoires again, as they reveal the most of the gameboard's nature.

Last edited by Archer; 2010-01-02 at 05:59.
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Old 2010-01-02, 06:17   Link #463
MeoTwister5
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Some more summaries. Taking a break before I continue.

Spoiler for Ep6 summaries:
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Old 2010-01-02, 06:25   Link #464
ameskitty
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"Oh, very GOOD!"

It's almost thoroughly different from the rest of the episodes (by nature of course), and minus a few things (the usual quibbles with wordiness and annoying interruptions) I really, really enjoyed reading it, more than I remember enjoying the other episodes. But maybe that's because I went into spoiler near-isolation mode this time around.

Spoiler for EP6 long, scattered impressions - spoilers abound:
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Old 2010-01-02, 07:07   Link #465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_rogue View Post
"Oh, very GOOD!"

It's almost thoroughly different from the rest of the episodes (by nature of course), and minus a few things (the usual quibbles with wordiness and annoying interruptions) I really, really enjoyed reading it, more than I remember enjoying the other episodes. But maybe that's because I went into spoiler near-isolation mode this time around.

Spoiler for EP6 long, scattered impressions - spoilers abound:
poor Erika, she is a real bitch, but that's because of her past, she wants to find a REAL truth after all in the real world
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Old 2010-01-02, 07:40   Link #466
ijriims
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Let me clarify how I think about Featherine and Hachijou:

1. Featherine was watching all the things happening from EP1-6 like us the readers. She did not influence anything, change anything at all, until EP6. She was a bystander from EP1-5. EP1-4 was games made by Beatrice. EP5 was by Lambda. EP6 by Battler.

2. Meta-Ange was supposedly dead in EP4. She did not know about EP5 initially. Of course, 1998-Ange did not know about EP5 as well. However, she only knew the content from the two letters-in-the-bottle. She did not know what was supposedly to happen in EP3 as well. In EP4, there was not Hachijou at all. She did not even know this person.

3. In EP6, Meta-Ange was waken up again, with implanted memory by Featherine that she planned to meet Hachijou one day before she got to Rokkenjima. Fabricated memory also included she wrote down additional fictional letters-in-the-bottle on the internet, elucidating what happened in EP3-5 (which EP4 1998 Ange did not know). In EP6, she acquired these additional information so in EP7, when she got on Rokkenjima, she would solve all the things.
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Old 2010-01-02, 09:40   Link #467
MeoTwister5
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Got to say it now before I forget:

Erika vs. Maria metaduel was awesome. Lots of props to Maria for holding her own, at least for a while. That Bitch is still a bitch though.

Summary later. I need to fix translation errors.
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Old 2010-01-02, 09:42   Link #468
Klashikari
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Although my connection burst was quite a curse for a long run, it sure helped me not to be spoiled, except few things (sprites so to speak).

Anyway, Episode 6 was quite a hellish ride, and although it sure has an hectic pace, it certainly was a proper follow up to Episode 5.

First, I must admit I was kind of disappointed by some stuff. First is how a lot of characters were basically -nearly- absent, due to the lack of screentime. This is particularly true for the witch side furniture (Virgilia, Ronove and Gaap barely had any action, and even with the climax, they were quite the gimmick support, unlike Ep5).
The second issue I got with Episode 6 is how the whole "love trial" was sidetracking the main plot, without any -real- impact on the latter (I mean, I liked the developments involving the 3 couples, but it sure didn't have much pertinent information for Battler's closed room of hell).

Anyway, I must say that the penultimate truths battle was a rollercoaster
Spoiler for extreme end spoiler, stay away unless you are prepared:


That being said, the whole mystery regarding the closed room and the sealed rooms were quite a headache.
I must admit I didn't find any fault regarding the room next to the cousin's room. That being said, I think there is an interesting loophole regarding Kanon in Battler's guest room.

We know that he "doesn't exist", yet, he did enter, he IS defined as "people", and 3 of them get through (Erika, Battler, Kanon). And thankfully, Beato confirmed that ALL names can only be used by those we know. So no inherited name, or convenient "similar name". Furthermore, since Shannon is trapped in the sealed room, there is no way the Shkanon is possible.

Anyway, since we got a definite count of number of humans on Rokkenjima, despite Kinzo's corpse is still there (talk about the rotting process), I guess we can again confirm "the dead cannot be counted".
By this definition, I think it is possible to drag again the theory of "the victim closed the door and died afterwards" that I thought for Episode 2. By this definition, it is rather the only explanation for the following red:
-only 3 people went to the guest room: Erika, Battler, Kanon
-The names refer to the person who they are designated to, no one can pretend to be someone else.
-Battler left the room, Erika and Kanon entered in.
-Battler was "rescued" by Kanon (definition: Battler opened the chain lock, left the room, then Kanon entered the room, put back the chain lock and hide somewhere). That doesn't mean if he saved Battler on purpose or not.
-There is no other way out (except the bathtube, which is not possible)
-Kanon "doesn't exist" in the guest room

So I think Kanon comitted suicide, or was killed a way or another (Erika's doing?)


The last riddle was quite a surprise to be honest. Not because of the "17 people on rokkenjima", but Erika's red.
She clearly state in red that there are 18 people. Because of this, there is no way there is any mistake, but again a silly word play done by Battler and Beato.
Why? Because the red truth is absolute, and there is no "subjective truth" in that concept: proof is that Battler was convinced Asumu was his mother, but couldn't repeat it in red that he is her son. By definition, if Erika was mistaken, she couldn't even say that sentence in red.
Therefore, there is really no way that both Erika's and Beato/Battler's red are applied to the same circumstances or basis.
Either the latter mentioned the number of people as "the present time on Rokkenjima", or the trick "there are 2 apple, while I have 3" still applies, since there is no "exactly". They simply said "including you, there are 17 people".

That or furniture doesn't count, which isn't exactly anything inspiring.

That being said, I really can't buy the whole Shkanon theory.
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Old 2010-01-02, 09:58   Link #469
MeoTwister5
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I personally still don't really believe in ShKanon, at the same time I can't deny how strong the possible clues are to this. For me it still feels like a cheap copout way to escape some fo the binding limitations of the red. That said I still have to give props to Ryukishi07 for giving very strong hints and indications to support this theory, however I have yet to see anything definitive for both sides.

I'm still on the fence regarding ShKanon at least, but I must say as of where I am now in Ep6 I'm finally able to go into the Anti-Magic camp.

Yeah you heard me. After almost 8 months on neutrality, MeoTwister5's finally choosing a side. I'm now Pro-Mystery.
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Old 2010-01-02, 10:03   Link #470
Kitsu
The unlucky one
 
 
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Review time

Spoiler for long:
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Last edited by Kitsu; 2010-01-02 at 10:16.
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Old 2010-01-02, 10:11   Link #471
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I'm waiting for Shkanon to be confirmed.

But it turns out, that they do both exists! Its just that one of them isn't on the island on October 4th and 5th, because the other told them to gtfo people are going to be killed....

Its Ryukishi, he could make it work! However unlikely (and very unlikely) it is.
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Old 2010-01-02, 10:27   Link #472
ijriims
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Shkanon theory? Erika non-existence theory? It is a false dilemma, there is no need to buy one of these two theories because there is a third option, which will save SayoXGeorge and YoshiyaXJessica at the same time.

Quoted from my post in Spec. & Spoiler thread.

Shannon and Kanon made a quarrel AFTER everyone (except Erika) came onto Rokkenjima on 4 Oct 1986, because Yoshiya now wanted to live on to be with Jessica, Yoshiya knew Sayo planned to execute real Beatrice's plan so he tried to stop Sayo. Sayo had no choice but to kill him. All these happened BEFORE Erika arrived.

So, Erika could be the 17th or 18th person on Rokkenjima.

Genji and Sayo hid this fact by claiming Yoshiya was still around. Kanon was a lie to hide Yoshiya's death. Genji and Sayo both shared the identity of Kanon at that time.

Erika never saw Yoshiya in person, however because all other people had seen him a while before, she also believed in Yoshiya's presence.

Sayo got out from her locked room to save Battler, through the window, at the time of Logic Error. She said Kanon did it, but the body was Sayo's.

In other episodes, since Yoshiya did not profess his love to Jessica, he did not revolt against Sayo and Beatrice, so they were two distinct people in other episodes.

Only in EP6 did Erika become the 17th person, in EP5, she were still the 18th person at the time of her coming to Rokkenjima.

----------------

But whether you buy this or not, it is up to you. Or you discover the fourth option?
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Old 2010-01-02, 10:36   Link #473
Kitsu
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Quote:
So, Erika could be the 17th or 18th person on Rokkenjima.
The problem here is. I'm detective Erika Furoda. The 18th person
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Old 2010-01-02, 10:37   Link #474
MeoTwister5
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Quote:
The last riddle was quite a surprise to be honest. Not because of the "17 people on rokkenjima", but Erika's red.
She clearly state in red that there are 18 people. Because of this, there is no way there is any mistake, but again a silly word play done by Battler and Beato.
Why? Because the red truth is absolute, and there is no "subjective truth" in that concept: proof is that Battler was convinced Asumu was his mother, but couldn't repeat it in red that he is her son. By definition, if Erika was mistaken, she couldn't even say that sentence in red.
Therefore, there is really no way that both Erika's and Beato/Battler's red are applied to the same circumstances or basis.
Either the latter mentioned the number of people as "the present time on Rokkenjima", or the trick "there are 2 apple, while I have 3" still applies, since there is no "exactly". They simply said "including you, there are 17 people".
So... you're suggesting that both red text are valid insofar as they do not refer to the same moment in time in the island? Such that while there were 18 people on the island to satisfy the 18 upper limit, it becomes 17 at a later time to satisfy the new 17 upper limit?

Edit:

Here's the last summaries for today. I'm lagging behind everyone else who has finished the game so I'll try to pick up the pace. School starts on Monday so no guarantees...

Spoiler for Ep6 summaries:


By the way if this duel doesn't cement Erika's status as a Bitch, we're not playing the same series.

Edit 2 - Oops forgot the red and blue

Spoiler for Red Text:


Spoiler for Blue Text:

Last edited by MeoTwister5; 2010-01-02 at 10:55.
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Old 2010-01-02, 10:45   Link #475
Usami_Haru
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But was the red: Including Erika There is 17 people on Rokkenjima, Including Erika There are no more than 17 people on Rokkenjima or Including Erika there are only 17 people of Rokkenjima because if it was written in the first way it means that it still can be 18 people, since red truth is subjective I can say: I have two apples when I actually have five since I have several apples.
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Old 2010-01-02, 10:55   Link #476
Kitsu
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The sentence I got
Including you (Erika) there are 17 people on Rokkenjima
BUt I don't know for sure since my japanese sucks badly
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Old 2010-01-02, 10:55   Link #477
MeoTwister5
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How about someone post the exact Japanese of that and let's all have a go at it?
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Old 2010-01-02, 11:08   Link #478
TheForsaken
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Quote:
そなたを迎えても
17人だ。
Even if include you, it is 17.
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Old 2010-01-02, 11:10   Link #479
Golden Witch Drugs
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REVIEW TIME~ (I was up all night reading and then I woke up at 4 pm today -.-') Now I just have to wait for the patch to be sure I read everything right

Spoiler for EP 6:
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Old 2010-01-02, 11:13   Link #480
Augustus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsu View Post
The problem here is. I'm detective Erika Furoda. The 18th person
If she used those same words. She is the 18 what? She never said 18th person on rokkenjima.Even if she said it she doesnt specify what 18 person.

If dead people dont count then the number of people in rokkenjima must go down.Everytime a twilight is performed.
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