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Old 2010-10-17, 03:27   Link #4841
AuraTwilight
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Where was it stated that Kyrie was a former yakuza, again? If you mean the Sumadera family's connections, I'm sure that's moot since they pretty much disowned her.
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Old 2010-10-17, 06:58   Link #4842
rogerpepitone
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@winter: The shed key doesn't have any sort of tag on it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eva in Episode 1
Furthermore, even though the key didn't have a tag or anything sticking to it, they knew it was the key to the storehouse behind the rose garden. ...And that means that they also knew where the storehouse was. .........I'll say it even clearer. The culprit knew the inside of the servant room well.
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Old 2010-10-17, 07:13   Link #4843
winter 923
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oha ....that's strange
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Originally Posted by EP4 Tea Party View Post
That key, ....was in the pocket of his trousers. The gardening shed key had been kindly left there and even the plate was attached.
edit: so to get things together. The key Battler found is most likely fake, he wouldn't know that they normally aren't tagged since he is not familiar with the keys anyway. Since the tag is there he wouldn't even try to question the key on it. But is it the same key George gave back to Gohda? Gohda should know that there is no tag on the original key.
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Old 2010-10-17, 07:27   Link #4844
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Well Kyrie was meant to become the new head of the sumadera for at least 20 years, and her little sister suggested she's never been a good person.

The reason Kyrie was "disowned" was related to the fact she didn't want to marry the man that was chosen for her, rather than her not wanting to become the head of a yakuza family. Or at least that's what Kasumi believes.

Anyway that whole matter is not very clear, since according to Kasumi you don't normally have the choice of leaving the sumadera family, and in the worst case you just get killed for trying. But...

Quote:
After that, the Sumadera family began receiving favorable treatment from a section of the Ushiromiya group. ......There must have been some kind of backroom deal.
But it really doesn't make much sense to me. What kind of "section" is this? What Ushiromiya group could make favorable treatment to the Sumadera? Not certainly Hideyoshi's food company... what did he offer? Free ramen?

I doubt the yakuza have a taste for the anti-rosa's cloth line, so this can only be from Kinzo or Rudolf.

However why Kinzo would bother helping one of his sons (whom he despise) on his extramarital affairs? I guess he would sympathize with the situation, but with the person?
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Old 2010-10-17, 09:58   Link #4845
beatler556
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Murdering everyone wouldn't be that hard. Folks have the right idea: Just run around shooting people. Do it late at night. Bring a gun and shoot people through pillows. Poison the tea. Or just use that freaking bomb. It's not like anybody's expecting to get murdered.

Eva says in ep1 she'd do it "right" as evidence it can't be her. And in fairness her plan makes more sense than a serial murder.
I guess the culprit isn't aiming for the most efficient method of taking all the Ushiromiya's in one go. killing 18 people slowly over the course of two days is pretty risky when you don't know how they will respond.
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Old 2010-10-17, 12:37   Link #4846
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I think we have to take into account Higurashi in order to solve the mistery in Umineko.

First of all, in the seventh episode of Higurashi (sound novel), Ryukishi starts to describe the "rules" of the world. ┐How? He examines all the past episodes and deduces the common events among them. That's how he makes up rules X, Y and Z, which are important to solve the mistery.

In Umineko we do have some paralelism among the episodes. We could say that everyone in Rokkenjima has someone they wouldn't kill no matter what (Battler --> Everyone, Eva --> Hideyoshi & George, George --> Shannon, Kyrie --> Rudolph?...).

So, if we suspect someone to be the culprit, that person will have someone who dies in every episode which can make us think "Yes, that person can't be the culprit because he/she would never kill that other person".

Another common trend is the fact that everyone dies at the end of the episode. But there's one exception, Eva (episode 3).

I think that the epitaph's serial murder is the same that the Oyashiro-sama's curse and its serial murder every year at the Watanagashi. And the explosion or whatever in Rokkenjima plays the same part that "contamination" of Hinamizawa after Rika's death.

From here on we can make up lots of theories, but I think it's important what I've stated and looking into the paralelism between Higurashi and Umineko would be useful.

Best regads.
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Old 2010-10-17, 12:51   Link #4847
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But it really doesn't make much sense to me. What kind of "section" is this? What Ushiromiya group could make favorable treatment to the Sumadera? Not certainly Hideyoshi's food company... what did he offer? Free ramen?

I doubt the yakuza have a taste for the anti-rosa's cloth line, so this can only be from Kinzo or Rudolf.

However why Kinzo would bother helping one of his sons (whom he despise) on his extramarital affairs? I guess he would sympathize with the situation, but with the person?
We should remember something about this - none of this is actually 100% confirmed. This is just Kasumi and Ange's speculations on why Kyrie could get out. For all we know she might have threatened to blackmail them with information only she would know as the upcoming head.
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Old 2010-10-17, 15:28   Link #4848
AuraTwilight
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Not only that, but absolutely none of that is evocative of the Yakuza, like, at all. All it really has to mean is that the Sumadera's permission was bought off by the Ushiromiya Group (Which are a business organization, not some sort of crime ring).
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Old 2010-10-17, 16:29   Link #4849
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The point is:

No one can leave the Sumadera group and stay alive. Therefore Kyrie was still part of the Sumadera. The apparent explanation Kasumi gave is too strange to be true, therefore there are enough suspicions to claim that Kyrie was still working for the sake of her original family for some kind of secret objective.
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Old 2010-10-17, 17:05   Link #4850
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The point is:

No one can leave the Sumadera group and stay alive. Therefore Kyrie was still part of the Sumadera. The apparent explanation Kasumi gave is too strange to be true, therefore there are enough suspicions to claim that Kyrie was still working for the sake of her original family for some kind of secret objective.
Or, The Sumadera might be hunting Kyrie and are killing everyone else in the hopes of finding her. Besides, I'm pretty sure both Knox and Dine say that no form of big organization can have a part in the murders/story (with a few exceptions).
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Old 2010-10-17, 17:50   Link #4851
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Or even better, The Sumaderas really did forgive Kyrie because the Ushiromiyas had assloads of money.

Or, if you don't have enough love for that, Regardless of Kyrie's involvement or innocence, it was always part of the plan to kill off the Ushiromiyas and use Ange to get the fortune. Even if Kyrie is innocent, she played right into their hand.
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Old 2010-10-25, 18:52   Link #4852
Jaden
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Some people posted something interesting in the episode 5 thread today. I'm going to discuss it here because my thinking is heavily affected by episode 6.

In some episodes Kinzo's body was burned in the trash incinerator, and although incinerated it seemed like a normal corpse, as in it was covered in soft tissue and retained a normal shape. They were able to make out toes and fingers and all that.

Although it hasn't been said in red, I think we can take for granted that Kinzo has been dead for over 12 months. So, I file a complaint due to logic error...

A corpse that had been buried for 12 months wouldn't have produced the neat kind of burnt corpse found in the incinerator.

If I was a witch I'd just say that the corpse might have been preserved somehow. A likely method would be some kind of embalming by Nanjo. This, however, doesn't make any sense. They wouldn't preserve the corpse if they were planning to make Kinzo disappear, right?

So this is just more proof for my theory that the motivations and actions of characters in the games don't have to make sense, as long as they are possible. Unless someone has a more logical explanation to this...?
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Old 2010-10-25, 18:59   Link #4853
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That's a point I bought up more then once before as making the whole "Kinzo has been dead for a year" deal look fishy and likely unbelievable. However there is a possibility: Kinzo's own last will. As for why would he make that his will, there's endless possibiities about that. Also generally speaking, if Kinzo died a year ago + it doesn't mean that the circumstances under which he died and the reaction of the ones living on Rokkenjima was what we were led to believe it was so far. It's possible a character think it's to their advantage to have a whole Kinzo corpse.

Of course there's also the other possibility, that Kinzo's corpse was kept intact simply because the story needed his body intact (and not any given characters within it). I guess it depends on the faith you have in Ryukishi.

I would say however that an absent corpse for over a year should've made Kinzo's study smell better, the bad smell might be hinting of a preservation process occuring there until the day of the meeting.
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Old 2010-10-25, 19:15   Link #4854
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I'm pretty sure the bad smell was stated to be from all the absinthe and such, but I'm not certain. I also don't see how Kinzo's will would be a problem.
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Old 2010-10-25, 19:24   Link #4855
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Well there is this thing.

As you said Natsuhi and Krauss wanted to make Kinzo "disappear". They had absolutely no reasons to keep Kinzo around, so the best thing they could have done was to bury him somewhere, or even better: to burn him.


There are not many ways to make it plausible unless someone just blatantly disobeyed to their orders.

They were ordered to burn or bury or both Kinzo's corpse and yet they didn't do it. The mastermind behind this is probably the same person that made Kinzo's body show up in the middle of the family conference.

Krauss and Natsuhi were only made to believe they were in charge after Kinzo's death, but they never were.
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Old 2010-10-25, 19:52   Link #4856
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A corpse could be useful to keep around if they were worried that having Kinzo dissappear might be too suspicious. Maybe if Kinzo were, I dunno, thrown off a cliff, the embalming wouldn't be too noticable?
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Old 2010-10-25, 23:02   Link #4857
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
A corpse could be useful to keep around if they were worried that having Kinzo dissappear might be too suspicious. Maybe if Kinzo were, I dunno, thrown off a cliff, the embalming wouldn't be too noticable?
Remember we're dealing with Natsuhi here. She wouldn't let Kinzo's corpse be disgraced like that. I agree with Jan Poo- the original intention would have likely been burning or burying. Likely the latter, as Kinzo believed in Western tradition of burial more than Eastern tradition of cremation.
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Old 2010-10-25, 23:03   Link #4858
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Remember we're dealing with Natsuhi here. She wouldn't let Kinzo's corpse be disgraced like that. I agree with Jan Poo- the original intention would have likely been burning or burying. Likely the latter, as Kinzo believed in Western tradition of burial more than Eastern tradition of cremation.
And embalming is a fitting way for his visage to be preserved in case Beatrice ever did revive and decide to get a good look at his earthly vessel.
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Old 2010-10-26, 05:34   Link #4859
Jaden
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So the body was hidden away properly, but since Kinzo believed in resurrection he willed for his "coffin" to be pumped full of formaldehyde. How quaint..

Beatrice would laugh at you and say "What ridiculous reasoning! But is is effective..."
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Old 2010-10-26, 08:19   Link #4860
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So the body was hidden away properly, but since Kinzo believed in resurrection he willed for his "coffin" to be pumped full of formaldehyde. How quaint..

Beatrice would laugh at you and say "What ridiculous reasoning! But is is effective..."
Who knows? Maybe Kanon with his wheel barrel full of gardening supplies in the first game is a foreshadowing of this grizzly exhuming? Maybe his lack of strength in this scene could be attributable to him having dug out a corpse? A possible truth whoever wild it might sound.
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