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Old 2010-10-26, 19:09   Link #4881
Thunder Book
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If Kinzo cares about his image, doesn't that imply he cares about the Ushiromiya name/status? You're right about the money though.

Also Battler is special because of his spiky hair. It is the spikiest hair of the whole Ushiromiya family.

Maybe he's special because he's TMF19YA or something? Or perhaps Battler just reminds Kinzo of himself a whole lot or something. I don't really have a solid explanation TBQH.
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Old 2010-10-26, 19:20   Link #4882
Cao Ni Ma
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Again, I never said that Kinzo though Battler to be special in a good way. If his intent was to repeat the miracle that caused the rebirth of the Ushiromiya's he had to pick a person that was independent and that would not have been a likely fit to be the successor.

I dont see Jessica or George filling this roll as their actions of independence are usually tied to things the witness/detective hasn't observed. Maria and Battler though have shown clear defiance against the characters in the story.
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Old 2010-10-26, 19:38   Link #4883
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Quote:
If Kinzo cares about his image, doesn't that imply he cares about the Ushiromiya name/status? You're right about the money though.
"Look how Father clearly dismisses and shames the Ushiromiya name. We should BARGE IN AND INTERRUPT HIS BUSINESS AND INTERFERE WITH HIS LIFESTYLE in order to settle this mess."

Natsuhi has this habit of never shutting the fuck up and leaving Kinzo alone. If I were him I'd go through the rotes of the Family Head just so she'd stay off my back about the family's honor and whatnot.

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Maybe he's special because he's TMF19YA or something? Or perhaps Battler just reminds Kinzo of himself a whole lot or something. I don't really have a solid explanation TBQH.
Battler's not TMF19YA.

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Again, I never said that Kinzo though Battler to be special in a good way. If his intent was to repeat the miracle that caused the rebirth of the Ushiromiya's he had to pick a person that was independent and that would not have been a likely fit to be the successor.
Sigh, falling into the trap of Magical Phantom Goldsmith, again, eh? There's only one person that Kinzo would go out of his way to make the heir, if anyone, and Battler is disqualified from being that person for not having a vagina. Anyone can be the heir if they can make a miracle, but he's not going to give them the setup for one beyond planting the Epitaph and waiting for someone to figure it out.

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I dont see Jessica or George filling this roll as their actions of independence are usually tied to things the witness/detective hasn't observed. Maria and Battler though have shown clear defiance against the characters in the story.
What defiance has Maria shown aside from "uuu~ uuu~" at not getting her way? Though a detective hasn't observed it, the white text of characterization should not be ignored. Jessica and George portrayed the defiant, independent personality of pushing aside all that stands in their way to grab hold of what they desire; since their pieces can act in that manner, that spirit exists in their real selves.
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Old 2010-10-26, 19:52   Link #4884
Cao Ni Ma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
"Look how Father clearly dismisses and shames the Ushiromiya name. We should BARGE IN AND INTERRUPT HIS BUSINESS AND INTERFERE WITH HIS LIFESTYLE in order to settle this mess."

Natsuhi has this habit of never shutting the fuck up and leaving Kinzo alone. If I were him I'd go through the rotes of the Family Head just so she'd stay off my back about the family's honor and whatnot.



Battler's not TMF19YA.



Sigh, falling into the trap of Magical Phantom Goldsmith, again, eh? There's only one person that Kinzo would go out of his way to make the heir, if anyone, and Battler is disqualified from being that person for not having a vagina. Anyone can be the heir if they can make a miracle, but he's not going to give them the setup for one beyond planting the Epitaph and waiting for someone to figure it out.



What defiance has Maria shown aside from "uuu~ uuu~" at not getting her way? Though a detective hasn't observed it, the white text of characterization should not be ignored. Jessica and George portrayed the defiant, independent personality of pushing aside all that stands in their way to grab hold of what they desire; since their pieces can act in that manner, that spirit exists in their real selves.

You do have a lot of love for these characters even though the evidence doesn't show it. Its not whether a character COULD act this way, its whether or not the character IS acting this way. I propose that Jessica and George have no backbone when confronted by their parents and that all the lovey dovey things the witch shows us are red herrings The only time Jessica grows a pair (that the detective witnesses) is after her parents are killed (which for the most part gets her killed or maimed), she mostly stays put if they are still alive like in ep3.

Also even though Kinzo's was capable of arranging all of these things it doesn't stop the fact that he was dead before the games start. Also what evidence do you have that Kinzo wanted the successor to be the person that solved the epitaph? A letter by Beatrice?

Last edited by Cao Ni Ma; 2010-10-26 at 20:30.
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Old 2010-10-26, 20:17   Link #4885
Thunder Book
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight
"Look how Father clearly dismisses and shames the Ushiromiya name. We should BARGE IN AND INTERRUPT HIS BUSINESS AND INTERFERE WITH HIS LIFESTYLE in order to settle this mess."

Natsuhi has this habit of never shutting the fuck up and leaving Kinzo alone. If I were him I'd go through the rotes of the Family Head just so she'd stay off my back about the family's honor and whatnot.
Idk, the flashbacks to when the parents were children gave me the idea he cared about his name/status somewhat. It's been a while since I read those parts though, so I might be remembering wrong.

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Battler's not TMF19YA.
Why can't he be?
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Old 2010-10-26, 20:20   Link #4886
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Well that's the thing...
People tend to be way too certain of anything they think, arbitrarily deciding which part is the truth, which red can be fought, which are clear and without hidden traps, then there's people's expectations toward Ryukishi himself and the general way the serie will end, and it ends up with thing like this.

It'd be much better if more people learned to say something like "I really don't think Battler is the male from 19 years ago because <reasons>" then state these things as if they were facts that didn't even need explanations.

It ruins the exchange of idea entirely.
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Old 2010-10-26, 20:24   Link #4887
Thunder Book
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I just hope that I'm not accidentally being spoiled on Episode 7 or anything.
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Old 2010-10-26, 20:28   Link #4888
Cao Ni Ma
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I just hope that I'm not accidentally being spoiled on Episode 7 or anything.
From what I've read so far, you aren't. Although me answering you this could in itself be considered a spoiler by defining to you whats not a spoiler!
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Old 2010-10-26, 20:46   Link #4889
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You do have a lot of love for these characters even though the evidence doesn't show it. Its not whether a character COULD act this way, its whether or not the character IS acting this way. I propose that Jessica and George have no backbone when confronted by their parents and that all the lovey dovey things the witch shows us are red herrings The only time Jessica grows a pair (that the detective witnesses) is after her parents are killed, she mostly stays put if they are still alive like in ep3.
The two also have moral compunctions. They're not going to flip out and murder people to be together (unless they're pressured to like George), and are willing to wait to try and earn their parents' approval; I know exactly what those two are going through, personally. In Jessica's case, she's still working at just trying to get the romance GOING. Confronting her parents is hardly an issue yet. George is planning to defy his parents that very weekend about the issue after proposing to Shannon. Of course, shit goes down, so whether or not he would've carried through on that is unknown. There's no reason to assume he wouldn't, though.

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Also even though Kinzo's was capable of arranging all of these things it doesn't stop the fact that he was dead before the games start. Also what evidence do you have that Kinzo wanted the successor to be the person that solved the epitaph? A letter by Beatrice?
Without invoking any EP7 spoilers: Kinzo's characterization consistently shows us that he thinks that his children are lazy good for nothing mooches, and he consistently insists that people solve the Epitaph, which we KNOW leads to the gold. And if one has the gold, they pretty much have financial control of the entire family through sheer brute force anyway, so no one else would have any right to be the Head anyway.

Simply because he placed the Epitaph out here, this reasoning is possible for AuraTwilight.

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Idk, the flashbacks to when the parents were children gave me the idea he cared about his name/status somewhat. It's been a while since I read those parts though, so I might be remembering wrong.
It's worth bearing in mind that in that time period, Beatrice II was (probably) still alive.

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Why can't he be?
Relying on EP6 information only for your sake, there's really no room for it in the timing.

It's pretty damn obvious that Kyrie and Asumu had a babyswap, and Battler is actually Kyrie's child raised by Asumu. Can we agree on that for the sake of simplicity? Moving from that premise...well...Kyrie and Asumu delivered at the exact same day. Right after being born, the swap was done so no one was any the wiser. The Man From 19 Years Ago is a baby that Kinzo handed Natsuhi to raise, and after a short period (let's assume a week at minimum), she went all LOL BABY OVER DA CLIFF.

So...what, did Kinzo sneak in, steal the baby under Rudolf's nose (using a second baby swap, perhaps?) and then had Natsuhi raise the baby and then she threw it over a cliff and then it was brought to be raised by Asumu on the same day?

I'm sorry, but that's stupid, even for small-bombs logic.
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Old 2010-10-26, 21:07   Link #4890
Cao Ni Ma
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I dont even believe that Battler's identity was meant as a truth thats meant to be used to solve the identity of the culprit. In my opinion it was used as a method to psyche him out of the game and for the foreshadowing for his alternative answer to EP5. We know that battler and natsuhi aren't the culprit. So this is a false answer and the real one has yet to be observed.

Also "Kinzo's characterization" isn't proof and the detective solved the mystery in EP5, anything after that is meant to re affirm what we know. ( Or to further cloud our answers if you cant link whats said and done with your theory.)
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Old 2010-10-26, 21:16   Link #4891
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"Characterization" is one of the most useful methods we have to solving the mystery, and is definitely atleast evidence towards the truth. This is how it works in normal mystery novels, and EP7 not-so-subtly implies that it's even more important than the Red.
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Old 2010-10-26, 21:31   Link #4892
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
"Characterization" is one of the most useful methods we have to solving the mystery, and is definitely atleast evidence towards the truth. This is how it works in normal mystery novels, and EP7 not-so-subtly implies that it's even more important than the Red.
No, evidence is the strongest weapon you have to find the culprit and if characterization was used as a tool to determine the culprit its usually by determining who is the least likely person that could have committed the crime. Its usually him/her!
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Old 2010-10-26, 21:32   Link #4893
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Well yeah characterization is helpful and super important, but that alone can't lead you to the whole truth.

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No, evidence is the strongest weapon you have to find the culprit and if characterization was used as a tool to determine the culprit its usually by determining who is the least likely person that could have committed the crime. Its usually him/her!
If Umineko was running on typical mystery cliches, all of the maids and butlers would be the only culprits.
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Old 2010-10-26, 21:39   Link #4894
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If Umineko was running on typical mystery cliches, all of the maids and butlers would be the only culprits.
Please add doctors to that list as well!
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Old 2010-10-26, 22:03   Link #4895
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Well yeah characterization is helpful and super important, but that alone can't lead you to the whole truth.
Good thing that's not what I'm advocating. I'm just saying that people disregard it way too much in the Umineko community, trying to make up ridiculous theories that match all the holes like Erika did. Fact of the matter is, the Whydunnit, and thus the characterization that surrounds it, is the most crucial aspect of the mystery. It always has been, and the failure to see that is what kept pre-EP5 Battler, and Erika, from reaching the truth.
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Old 2010-10-26, 22:17   Link #4896
Cao Ni Ma
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Good thing that's not what I'm advocating. I'm just saying that people disregard it way too much in the Umineko community, trying to make up ridiculous theories that match all the holes like Erika did. Fact of the matter is, the Whydunnit, and thus the characterization that surrounds it, is the most crucial aspect of the mystery. It always has been, and the failure to see that is what kept pre-EP5 Battler, and Erika, from reaching the truth.
The whydunnit doesn't need to be a grandiose thing, Christie had people being killed because they didn't pay for ballet lessons! She had people being killed off because the culprit though the detective was a smug bastard. As long as you can fit the evidence thats presented and weave an entertaining story that compels people to try and solve it you've succeeded in making a mystery novel.
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Old 2010-10-26, 22:21   Link #4897
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
The whydunnit doesn't need to be a grandiose thing, Christie had people being killed because they didn't pay for ballet lessons! She had people being killed off because the culprit though the detective was a smug bastard. As long as you can fit the evidence thats presented and weave an entertaining story that compels people to try and solve it you've succeeded in making a mystery novel.
Except Ryukishi is highly ambitious and his style reeks of heavy characterization. That's why he humanized Takano at the end of Higurashi.

That he would completely discard characterization in the true plot of Umineko is utterly unthinkable. He's simply not that kind of a writer.
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Old 2010-10-26, 22:29   Link #4898
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Ryukishi's been railing directly against the idea that the whydunnit doesn't matter almost from the very moment Chiru started. If you think he'd go in for that kind of conclusion, you haven't been paying attention to him.
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Old 2010-10-26, 23:02   Link #4899
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Ryukishi claims the whydunnit is needed to catch the culprit, but Ryukishi also thought that by arc 5 the fans wouldn't know Kinzo is already dead but then everyone guessed it and he revealed it in arc 4.

At the same time even if it is needed to make full sense out of everything, which I agree, it doesn't mean it has to be grandiose. In fact there's no such things as a grandiose reason for mass murder.

Edit: It was certainly not needed to catch Higurashi's culprit, and even after we heard her story it didn't excuse the first thing she did. It also had relatively low relation to most arcs and other characters.
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Old 2010-10-26, 23:02   Link #4900
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The whydunnit doesn't need to be a grandiose thing, Christie had people being killed because they didn't pay for ballet lessons! She had people being killed off because the culprit though the detective was a smug bastard. As long as you can fit the evidence thats presented and weave an entertaining story that compels people to try and solve it you've succeeded in making a mystery novel.
Have you even read Chiru? It's like you learned absolutely nothing from the example of Erika.
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