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Old 2010-01-02, 13:37   Link #501
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leinne View Post
Did anyone actually read the end, it isn't taht difficult
Erika, for the last time before dying presents herself as the 18th peson, because she believes she's the 18th
BeaBato correct her and say she's the 17th
there are just 16 people in Rokkenjima+erika being the 17th, that's definite, Erika is the 17th person, that's all, by this Shkanon is true because there's no other way around
...That is wrong.
Why? Again, the red is not dependant to "what the person believes". The red truth can only be invoked if it is the absolute truth.
By this definition, Erika cannot state something that is wrong, even if she believes it is true. Otherwise, she would have been gagged like Battler or Beato in Episode 4.
The last riddle is nothing but again a tricky wordplay, otherwise, the concept of the red truth collapse for this kind of mistake. It can't be otherwise.

That might be a clue for "shkanon", but it can also be a giant red herring.
Before being obnoxious, saying if anyone has read episode 6, I would like you to read again the arguments given so far.
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Old 2010-01-02, 13:39   Link #502
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Shkanon theory has been proved.

Just kdding. But really Shkanon is the closest possibility.
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Old 2010-01-02, 13:40   Link #503
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Unless there were more dead people before the meeting... which seems unlikely at this time.

A variation to Shannon=Kanon is that Shannon has mutiple personalities: she escapes the neighboring room, switch to Kanon to save Battler, then switch back to Shannon and hides in the closet/under the bed.
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Old 2010-01-02, 13:40   Link #504
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Everything in the When They Cry series is a possibility. :/ We can only make theories while we wait to really be 100% sure and find out.
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Old 2010-01-02, 13:44   Link #505
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So maybe its just to mess with us. There are 18 people in rokkenjima(including Erika). But he said that with her there are 17. But he can also say with her there are 3. So everything is "subjective"? Anyone understand wut im saying?
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Old 2010-01-02, 13:44   Link #506
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Genji is a robot made by Kinzo!
I wouldn't put it past him.
Ok Knox 4th will though. :P
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Old 2010-01-02, 13:46   Link #507
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Actually the problem is not Shakanon theory is true in EP6, the problem is whether this is also true in other episodes.

My position is that only in EP6, Shakanon theory holds, in other episodes, it is just a red herring (or Ryukishi07 did not deliberately wrote that Battler never saw the two at the same time in the beginning, it was a mere coincidence. Just that after some readers pointed this out, he made this a red herring).

Only in EP6 there was hint about Sayo killing Yoshiya and Yoshiya having the courage to profess to Jessica. WHile at the same time in EP6 Erika never saw Yoshiya actually. THus, there were no some unbelievable cloth-changing involved.

In other episodes, since Battler and Erika saw either one of them alternately, this entailed ridiculous cloth-changing and make-ups, so Shakanon theory in other episodes was not implausible.

And if you believe in Ryukishi07, will you foresee that he would break up GeorgeXSayo and JessicaXYoshiya afterall by validating Shakanon theory in other episodes? No.

So, once again, without love, the truth cannot be seen. TRUST RYUKISHI07!!
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Old 2010-01-02, 13:47   Link #508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Augustus View Post
So maybe its just to mess with us. There are 18 people in rokkenjima(including Erika). But he said that with her there are 17. But he can also say with her there are 3. So everything is "subjective"? Anyone understand wut im saying?
The problem is how vague Beato and Battler term is used here.
Instead of saying "17th" (17人目), they say "17 people" (17人), while 人 is used here for "counting humans" (unless I'm mistaken).
Because of this, either circumstances are clearly different between the basis of Erika and BB's claims, or they are talking about things totally different.

However, because both are in red, their statements are true, that cannot be contested.
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Old 2010-01-02, 13:51   Link #509
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Ryu wants to confuse us to the point that we will roll over and die.
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Old 2010-01-02, 13:57   Link #510
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He's very original and what he wants is to make us brainstorm countless theories, and then in the end totally surprise us with something unexpected and different from what we thought. So, everything is possible. In the end, everything will eventually make sense. Or almost everything. xD
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Old 2010-01-02, 14:08   Link #511
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Actually the problem is not Shakanon theory is true in EP6, the problem is whether this is also true in other episodes.
It isn't Shkanon alone, it is generally how things are going in Umineko.

The biggest problem is how to figure the "pattern" and "triggers" in that mad island of Rokkenjima.
Even if you have that 2 persons as 1, it doesn't explain everything as you said.


To be honest, I didn't care one bit about the number of humans on the island in Episode 6.
The problem is how ep5 and ep6 confirmed that there is a giant plot, with people playing dead. But more importantly, Ep5 and Ep6 introduce the fact that cousins do that as well, which is very hard to grasp (especially Jessica, Maria and Battler).
The reason behind such situation is obviously linked to the culprit(s?) motive, but it doesn't help regarding the motives of the victims to do that charade.
Which is actually a bother, because Episode 1-4 have a distinctly different pattern for the first six.

And it isn't a conjuncture, because of Erika's red.
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Old 2010-01-02, 14:31   Link #512
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Right, it kind of disturbed me how easily he was able to formulate situations where "Person X helped/played dead". Why are so many people able to help stage the murder? Why do they want to help? What's the purpose of staging a murder?

...oy I'm just too mindfucked to even think about anything yet (especially a way around Shkanon, because that's just not a good solution in my mind). I need a few days
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Old 2010-01-02, 15:04   Link #513
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The problem if you count multiple personalities as different persons is that you would have to add a Beatrice personality in Shkanon. ^^

Unless it's something like soulmates count as one.

Or Kanon is Asumu's son , so his real name is Battler therefore there are 2 Battler's who are Rudolf's son on the island and you could count them as one since officially Rudolf has only one son named Battler? <Ok this is totally twisted>
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Old 2010-01-02, 15:29   Link #514
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Well maybe Kanon IS asumus dead son and Kinzo using his newest furniture Shannon revived him. So its 2 bodies but 1 soul. So it ca work either way. 18 people(bodies) 17(souls).
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Old 2010-01-02, 15:37   Link #515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Augustus View Post
Well maybe Kanon IS asumus dead son and Kinzo using his newest furniture Shannon revived him. So its 2 bodies but 1 soul. So it ca work either way. 18 people(bodies) 17(souls).
You read Tsukihime too much.

Then again Ryu07 loves it too.
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Old 2010-01-02, 15:54   Link #516
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It just makes me wonder how often people play dead. The only time we know for sure it can't happen is when Beato confirms their status in red or not. EP 5 and 6 were a little obvious with it. EP 5 Erika didn't even check the wounds and EP 6...well lets just say that after what she did I can't even defend anymore like I use to.
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Old 2010-01-02, 16:00   Link #517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joneleth View Post
The problem if you count multiple personalities as different persons is that you would have to add a Beatrice personality in Shkanon. ^^
I think you actually have this backwards. Why should there even be a rule about whether multiple personalities count? I mean, one inherent in the red text? In other words, it's actually more messy to say "When using the red text, the definition of a person will always be X". Red words are just that...words. They are a literal truth, as has been shown time and time again in the game. In other words, unless you specify what you mean by a person, it can mean pretty much anything.

Oh, and for the last time, red truth is not "subjective", it is "literal". It means nothing more or less that what it actually says.
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Old 2010-01-02, 16:27   Link #518
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I managed to finish it in the little time I had, awesome. I heard that episode 5 is translated, good job western community.
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Old 2010-01-02, 16:32   Link #519
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
I think you actually have this backwards. Why should there even be a rule about whether multiple personalities count? I mean, one inherent in the red text? In other words, it's actually more messy to say "When using the red text, the definition of a person will always be X". Red words are just that...words. They are a literal truth, as has been shown time and time again in the game. In other words, unless you specify what you mean by a person, it can mean pretty much anything.

Oh, and for the last time, red truth is not "subjective", it is "literal". It means nothing more or less that what it actually says.

I see what you mean. (I think)


So for example :
Kanon might be Asumu's son; his real name is then Ushiromiya Battler.
We have two Ushiromiya Battler on the island. But officially there is only one.
Therefore you could pass them for the same person, since "person" was never defined!
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Old 2010-01-02, 16:37   Link #520
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I have another theory

someone left the island after Erika arrived

Thus Erika remains the 18th guest, but the total number of people on the island has been lowered to 17
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