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Old 2012-02-26, 13:53   Link #5201
RandomAvatarFan
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I just started reading this. I only just got to Rokkenjima, and not a line further.
However I am beginning to think a bit differently

My interpretation of "new" Beatrice and what she's trying to tell us.
However, I think this is a pretty big clue for me. Just as Bern said back in EP1, Beatrice is a personification of the rules. To Battler who had a very little understanding of these rules in the beginning, she was a terrifying person who took joy in killing people. Now that he understands all the rules and "who Beatrice is" she's portrayed as very child like. This is exactly what Battler had wanted all along. Back in EP5, he keeps asking "what was she thinking?" Well, now we get to see this based on his understanding. We'll never be able to see that menacing troll face again, because we too will soon understand what Beatrice was thinking.

I'm intrigued by the entire "Forgery" concept. Since EP4, the entire message bottle became an enigma, and now it's even more so. I assumed everything was on different kakera, but this says something different: There's only one real truth. One culprit, one Beatrice. I don't know why I couldn't see this back in EP4. I need some clarification on something in EP5 before I g on with this though.

What makes this more complicated though is that Ryukishi wants us to trust the truths in his game, despite some of these are "forgeries". "Senza amore..."

I'm ready for BATTLER's game. Hmm... with his cloak and golden longsword, he seems quite like a shounen manga character, with a very fitting name.
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Old 2012-02-26, 15:04   Link #5202
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My interpretation of "new" Beatrice and what she's trying to tell us.
However, I think this is a pretty big clue for me. Just as Bern said back in EP1, Beatrice is a personification of the rules. To Battler who had a very little understanding of these rules in the beginning, she was a terrifying person who took joy in killing people. Now that he understands all the rules and "who Beatrice is" she's portrayed as very child like. This is exactly what Battler had wanted all along. Back in EP5, he keeps asking "what was she thinking?" Well, now we get to see this based on his understanding. We'll never be able to see that menacing troll face again, because we too will soon understand what Beatrice was thinking.
Quite an interesting way of seeing things. I'd be interested to see if/how your views on the matter change by the time you finish EP6.

Quote:
I need some clarification on something in EP5 before I g on with this though.
What do you need clarification on?

Quote:
What makes this more complicated though is that Ryukishi wants us to trust the truths in his game, despite some of these are "forgeries". "Senza amore..."
Yes, he wants the trust of his readers, of course. Without love, you cannot see the truth. At the very least, you must believe the Red Truths, or you will be left completely in the dark, without any hope of solving Umineko.

However, you also need to look at things from a skeptical point of view at the same time. Not everything in Umineko is truth, obviously. All of it is truth of a sort, but not necessarily THE truth.
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Old 2012-02-26, 21:15   Link #5203
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What do you need clarification on?
The thing about EP5 I'm wondering about is the aftermath. Did everyone return from the island on October 6th? It just says that people were alive at the time the game adjourned.

This changes the way I see the message bottles, along with the whole Ange/Featherine scenes. It has something to do with catboxes and "everyone dies", but I'm not sure if this completely fits.

Quote:
All of it is truth of a sort, but not necessarily THE truth.
Yup. It's figuring out what you're actually looking at that makes Umineko fun, and for me, fustrating
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Old 2012-02-26, 22:37   Link #5204
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The thing about EP5 I'm wondering about is the aftermath. Did everyone return from the island on October 6th? It just says that people were alive at the time the game adjourned.
No, they didn't. The game was suspended. It's like when a story has no ending. Things were never allowed to continue from that point, like time was frozen.
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Old 2012-02-27, 16:05   Link #5205
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I like the way the different sides of Beatrice are being portrayed with a different character. One to represent the ghost stories of Rokkenjima before hand. I'm not quite sure what Beatrice the chick represents. I think this Beatrice is the culprit of October 4th-5th 1986. The full illusion is reached when the culprit combines with the ghost stories. I have that much, but figuring out what made this Beato become the culprit will be interesting.
I've always like the way magic works in this story. There's a heartwarming side to it, like Maria and Sakutarou. The way the open window was portrayed as just a way for two sisters to enjoy the night's breeze. It's pretty sweet.
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Old 2012-02-27, 16:37   Link #5206
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Beato the chick doesn't seem to be capable of murder, given how sweet and demure she is. Bear in mind that she was born for Battler, whatever that might mean.
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Old 2012-02-28, 22:10   Link #5207
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Well, I just finished Jessica's trial, and Beato, Shannon, and Kanon all raised their hands at the same time. My "understanding" is only a guess at the moment.
I think Beato the chick represents the culprit who becomes Beatrice. An event* happens and Beatrice becomes a murderer. Becoming one with Beato the elder means putting on the persona of the witch of the ghost stories of Rokkenjima.

*I believe this event is a mixture of Battler's sin and the trial of love, which may end up being connected.

These trials are a little strange, but cool. It's a way to represent both what the characters are going through and I believe that the victims will be used for the first twilight. (and maybe one more? There are only five people there so far... unless Battler is pulled in to participate because of Beato)

It was easy to explain George's scene, as a way to show separation from his mother. Jessica's trial is a bit harder to explain. I want to say "jealousy" but it's not quite it. I'm looking forward to the last three trials. And Higurashi-eyed Jessica is pretty awesome. Hell fire and all that. Going into more detail with Kyrie and Rudolf was pretty neat.

If the last Episode had no love, this Episode seems to be nothing but romance. Pretty neat though.
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Old 2012-02-29, 16:54   Link #5208
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Jessica's trial is a bit harder to explain. I want to say "jealousy" but it's not quite it. I'm looking forward to the last three trials. And Higurashi-eyed Jessica is pretty awesome. Hell fire and all that. Going into more detail with Kyrie and Rudolf was pretty neat.

If the last Episode had no love, this Episode seems to be nothing but romance. Pretty neat though.
Honestly I don't know if Jessica challenging Kyrie is merely an excuse for letting us hear Kyrie's story or there's more than that, like some sort of parallelism between Jessica and Kyrie's situation who could have been meaningful on Rokkenjima Prime (or maybe just a subtle reference to what will be EP7 Teaparty?).

It'll be interesting if it was more but there's no way to tell if that's the case. -_-
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Old 2012-02-29, 17:50   Link #5209
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Honestly I don't know if Jessica challenging Kyrie is merely an excuse for letting us hear Kyrie's story or there's more than that, like some sort of parallelism between Jessica and Kyrie's situation
Well, there is some sort of parallelism between them, with Kyrie's "you need to harvest it." Jessica needs to work for it.
=/ I should look at it again, because I don't think "George killed Eva, Jessica killed Kyrie" is right. It's more or less the emotions that the characters involved are going through. As for how Eva and Kyrie actually died, that's not something we will see until their bodies are discovered and Erika does an investigation. Of course that's obvious though.

Honestly it doesn't make sense why these trials need to take place. Why can't Kanon be happy with Jessica and Shannon be happy with George on their own? Why is it that if Shannon leaves with George, Kanon will have to leave too?
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Old 2012-02-29, 18:00   Link #5210
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Honestly it doesn't make sense why these trials need to take place. Why can't Kanon be happy with Jessica and Shannon be happy with George on their own? Why is it that if Shannon leaves with George, Kanon will have to leave too?
If you haven't figured it out yet, I won't spoil it, but it'll be obvious by the end of the episode, I think.
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Old 2012-03-01, 22:22   Link #5211
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Oh, this is definitely going in a different direction. I was hoping for Erika's magical detective abilities to help, but that's gone, and the privilege she has without it was evil and horrifying. It's just as Battler had put it: "There's a real demon in front of me." Now Battler's is locked in the closed room, which would seem to be the focus of the story, considering the really strange prologue.

It's just like the cheese though. The obvious answer was denied, so we need to come up with a way to fold up the room and stack the cups. And Featherine did tell us to "think outside the closed room."
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Old 2012-03-01, 23:12   Link #5212
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Hehe. Do you think you can solve it before the end of the episode? It's quite a doozy, even to people who've finished reading the series.
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Old 2012-03-03, 00:09   Link #5213
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No, I wasn't able to, and the final red truth was a total mind screw. I can only guess at it, but, still if I do, I don't know how to move from there.
Once again, Kanon's body is not found, even though he wasn't pronounced "dead" with the red. But he doesn't exist in that room. How did it go: Cousin's room: Krauss, Jessica, Rudolf, Genji, Kanon, Gohda. The Next room over:Rudolf George, Shannon, Kumasawa, Nanjo.
Or: All the first twilight victims are where they are shown to be. Rudolf, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are in 'the next room over' Everyone else (minus Erika) is in the cousin's room. Including Erika, there are only 17 people on this island.
17 - First Twilight = 11
11 - Erika = 10
10 - 'Next Room over' = 4

So there are only 4 people in cousin's room which we see with Kanon disappearing. But if we assume he never existed in the first place, how could have Kanon rescued Battler. Kanon does not exist in this room. happen?

There is a lot of talk about what a "person" is. There's a lot of talk about what a "human" is. Even if the possibility that a "human" is "two people" exists, then the human that is also Kanon still need to have escaped the guesthouse without breaking the seals.

And EP6 Tips. Erika Furudo. Execute. Yeah, I'll tell you what exploded: my mind.
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Old 2012-03-03, 03:14   Link #5214
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You realized the truth about Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice, right?

Spoiler for EP6's Point:
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Old 2012-03-03, 04:16   Link #5215
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Including Erika, there are only 17 people on this island. [/COLOR]
Weeeelllllll ... ... those last two reds are ... pretty interesting, huh?

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There is a lot of talk about what a "person" is. There's a lot of talk about what a "human" is. Even if the possibility that a "human" is "two people" exists, then the human that is also Kanon still need to have escaped the guesthouse without breaking the seals.

And EP6 Tips. Erika Furudo. Execute. Yeah, I'll tell you what exploded: my mind.
I'd suggest reading through the little Gaap vs. Dlanor encounter, before the wedding starts, it may clear some stuff up for you.
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Old 2012-03-03, 04:38   Link #5216
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You realized the truth about Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice, right?
Spoiler for EP6's Point:
Um, isn't this kind of a spoiler? I certainly didn't figure that out the first time I played EP6.
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Old 2012-03-03, 05:17   Link #5217
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That's why I put it in a spoiler tag, dude.
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Old 2012-03-03, 10:39   Link #5218
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I'd suggest reading through the little Gaap vs. Dlanor encounter, before the wedding starts, it may clear some stuff up for you.
I'll do that. I was confused about the windows and the seals. We have:
Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are in 'the next room over' Everyone else is in the cousin's room. The doors on both of these rooms were sealed at the time of the logic error. The windows in the cousins' room were sealed at the time of the logic error. It is forbidden to form a theory if the basis of argument is if the window seals of 'the next room over' were torn at the time of the logic error.
Of course then, Dlanor did "remove that seal". So when that last statement was made, was Dlanor just referring to Gaap using it before the wedding ceremony so she didn't have to deal with it, when in reality it is possible they could have escaped through the window? After Dlanor "removed the seal" Erika was able to speak a blue truth regarding that window.
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Old 2012-03-03, 12:24   Link #5219
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Of course then, Dlanor did "remove that seal". So when that last statement was made, was Dlanor just referring to Gaap using it before the wedding ceremony so she didn't have to deal with it, when in reality it is possible they could have escaped through the window? After Dlanor "removed the seal" Erika was able to speak a blue truth regarding that window.
Right. Unlike the red truth seals made with duct tape, which actually limited what was allowed to happen on the game board, that seal was just a cheap trick to interfere with the players. It didn't have any effect on the pieces.
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Old 2012-03-03, 14:27   Link #5220
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that seal was just a cheap trick to interfere with the players. It didn't have any effect on the pieces.
So it is legal for Kanon to have jumped out of the window of the next room over...
Because he was never in the cousin's room with "everyone else", and only existed in the next room over.
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