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Old 2013-07-30, 07:11   Link #5301
ALPHA-Beatrice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
If we go with the Multiple Personalities idea, as raised with Jessica in EP3, what if death works differently for them? Or if Evatrice entirely took over Eva, would Eva be dead?


We've seen other reds that seem to be more symbolic in their meaning.

"Nothing in relation to Jessica's body pertains to the murder of Dr.Nanjo."


Allow me to expand on Eva-Beatrice's Web of Red Truth

Any culprit in the Umineko series must be conscious and aware of his or her actions!

As it pertains to Shannon and Kanon having the One-Winged Eagle, its Confirmed that at one point, Kinzo either ran or looked over an orphanage, and from there Kannon and Shannon(Sayo) were adopted and made into servants.

Note how Kuwasawa doesn't have the Eagle, in spite of her long service.

I purpose that the only ones who can wear the One-Winged eagle are either those directly related to, associated with or confined with Ushiromiya Kinzo. In other words, we can say it's like a possession marker or something.

As proof, none of the adults who married(Such as Kyrie, Natsuhi, etc.) have the mark. They don't have it because they don't have an intimate connection with the family lines. This is in liew of Kinzo's supremacist views.

My apologies to fun-kun who is clearly new to our Game Board, but you were getting Shakanontrice shoved down your throat, and I needed to be objective and give you Rosatrice.
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Old 2013-07-30, 07:42   Link #5302
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Funyarinpa, take ALPHA-Beatrice's (is it KNM in disguise?) "red truths" with a big grain of salt, as that person seems to use them anywhere (s)he wants, without taking into consideration the rules.
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Old 2013-07-30, 07:56   Link #5303
ALPHA-Beatrice
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Funyarinpa, take ALPHA-Beatrice's (is it KNM in disguise?) "red truths" with a big grain of salt, as that person seems to use them anywhere (s)he wants, without taking into consideration the rules.
The Red Truth is supposedly the argument of the witches, is it not? It's also the argument assumed to be true, unless defeated by a Blue or a Gold Truth.

But all of my Red Truths can be backed by blue truths.

And thereby, congruent with all of the rules.

As it regards my red truth concerning how a character must be conscious and aware of his or her own actions. The Epitath itself proves it. Even with an alternative ego, that person would have to be conscious or aware of the epitath in order to commit the crimes.

This is why the insanity defense IRL is actually quite difficult to untangle. Sure, a murderer is by definition "insane" in that, who would want to give up a life?

But, if he believes consciously in what he's doing, he's "sane" in that a truly mentally retarded person would be incapable of thought or action, or thoughtless actions would be his M.O


The first red truth I used Was Eva-Beatrice's.

And as far as my statement that Shannon and Kanon were adopted to be servants, that was mentioned in the narrative. and grey, you yourself concurred that we could use the narrative for our arguments.

The fact that those who married "into" the Ushiromiya family don't have the symbol, gives great credence to my theory that only those associated with or had close ties to Kinzo could bare the crest.

Where, in any way did I not follow the rules of the Umineko story?
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Old 2013-07-30, 08:30   Link #5304
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Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
And as far as my statement that Shannon and Kanon were adopted to be servants, that was mentioned in the narrative. and grey, you yourself concurred that we could use the narrative for our arguments.
You misunderstood me.
I never said that anything that can be seen in the narrative, can be used as red truth!
I only said that anything that can be seen in the narrative is enough to be a considered a "clue" and with that satisfy Knox's 8th! That is a very big difference!

That Shannon and Kanon were both taken in by Kinzo is not a valid red truth. At least not if that is your way of saying that "those two cannot be the same person"...
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Old 2013-07-30, 08:51   Link #5305
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
You misunderstood me.
I never said that anything that can be seen in the narrative, can be used as red truth!
I only said that anything that can be seen in the narrative is enough to be a considered a "clue" and with that satisfy Knox's 8th! That is a very big difference!

That Shannon and Kanon were both taken in by Kinzo is not a valid red truth. At least not if that is your way of saying that "those two cannot be the same person"...
No, I wasn't going there with that argument. My red truth was to set up my blue theory that only those close to Kinzo could wear the sealed eagle.

Aura-chan(assuming Aura's a girl) argued that the sealed eagles is a part of the proof that make Shannon and Kanon special. I decided to define a reason that they have the crest. And I think I laid out a pretty strong theory.

As I said in another thread I deny Shkanontrice because it's utterly implausible to me

I'm not KNM. But I watched his videos, which convinced me on Rosatrice(or rather, Rosatrice is the only logical culprit, followed by Evatrice.

It's the same reasoning for rejecting Black Battler. Only in the 5th game, was Battler not the detective. And above all, everything we know about Battler suggests he wouldn't be the murdering type.

Last edited by ALPHA-Beatrice; 2013-07-30 at 09:36. Reason: To keep the discussion on theorem simplified.
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Old 2013-07-30, 09:11   Link #5306
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Please remove the spoiler you just wrote. This is the EP6 thread after all. If you try to convince Funyarinpa, then you should mind your manners!
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Old 2013-07-30, 09:33   Link #5307
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Please remove the spoiler you just wrote. This is the EP6 thread after all. If you try to convince Funyarinpa, then you should mind your manners!
In no imagination was I trying to convince Fuya. You and Aura greatly led him down Shakanontrice like a lamb. I just wanted to give fuya here, an opportunity to see a different scenario.

I'll edit the post though, I can see where I wasn't speaking in generalites and gave out a big spoiler regarding Shakanontrice theory.
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Old 2013-07-30, 11:21   Link #5308
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Honestly I feel like this argument is really beyond the bounds of this particular thread. Everyone here was only giving Funyarinpa hints that he could think about himself, not trying to convince him that a particular theory was true or more convincing than any other.

Alpha, the fact that you're presenting this dichotomy between two particular theories is sort of a spoiler in and of itself, because you're giving away the fact that these two theories are the most popular explanations of the series, and that alone says a lot about where the rest of the series is going. I would really hold off on these kinds of discussions until Funyarinpa has finished all eight episodes and had the opportunity to evaluate and interpret things himself.

Also, I believe that Aura is a guy.
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Old 2013-07-30, 11:37   Link #5309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
The Red Truth is supposedly the argument of the witches, is it not? It's also the argument assumed to be true, unless defeated by a Blue or a Gold Truth.
You're understanding of the Red Truth is flawed by the way.
The Red is not assumed to be true, it is true, it has to be true or it violates itself.
The only thing that makes it ambiguous is the fact that there is no definitive rule how something needs to be said to fulfill the definition of "true".
Like the statements "I am not at home" and "I am sitting in my room" can be true at the same time regarding the definition of "home" and "my room".

Blue can never outright defeat Red, it can merely force a statement that reveals the ambiguity and trappings of how the witches' side uses the Red to construct a certain reality (=illusion).
Gold can only defeat Red for purposes that are not supposed to be discussed in an EP6 thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Also, I believe that Aura is a guy.
Aura should be considered a trap...somehow everybody including myself seems to think it's a girl...
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Old 2013-07-30, 14:07   Link #5310
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Quote:
Aura should be considered a trap...somehow everybody including myself seems to think it's a girl...
Haha... Captain Bluebeard and I were tricked like this once. Aura really is a trap
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Old 2013-07-30, 14:47   Link #5311
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Lol, for what it's worth, people mistake me for a girl irl. I had to wear the female uniform in high school to avoid getting loaded down with questions. This is exactly why I joked that I was actually Shkanon a few years back.

On-topic:

Quote:
Aura-chan(assuming Aura's a girl) argued that the sealed eagles is a part of the proof that make Shannon and Kanon special. I decided to define a reason that they have the crest. And I think I laid out a pretty strong theory.

As I said in another thread I deny Shkanontrice because it's utterly implausible to me

I'm not KNM. But I watched his videos, which convinced me on Rosatrice(or rather, Rosatrice is the only logical culprit, followed by Evatrice.

It's the same reasoning for rejecting Black Battler. Only in the 5th game, was Battler not the detective. And above all, everything we know about Battler suggests he wouldn't be the murdering type.
I apologize, I must have missed it; can you explain or recap your argument for the one winged eagle seal, and why Shkanon is too implausible?

I would point out here that you can't use the same reasoning for Black Battler as for Shkanon, as the two exist on different meta-planes. Black Battler is specifically "Despite what the stories say, Battler did it" as a theory for 'Real Rokkenjima', so his being the Detective in all the Gameboards has literally zero weight; the argument goes that the writer puts Battler in that position to put him above suspicion, in effect making his role as detective the cover for the real-world culprit.

Shkanon, meanwhile, can be quite the opposite. A culprit in a gameboard who is innocent in the real world...
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Old 2013-07-30, 16:07   Link #5312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Lol, for what it's worth, people mistake me for a girl irl. I had to wear the female uniform in high school to avoid getting loaded down with questions. This is exactly why I joked that I was actually Shkanon a few years back.
Now I almost wanna see a picture of you just to get an idea. Not that it's a bad or weird thing, I have a few friends that are outside the socially prescribed "norm" of gender, be it due to the way they dress, talk, look, or their actual biology. Hey, I myself am not gender-normative.
But having to wear the female school uniform? That kinda scrapes the barrel of weird...in terms of what society does to people.

Ehm...okay, back to the topic.

Quote:
Black Battler is specifically "Despite what the stories say, Battler did it" as a theory for 'Real Rokkenjima', so his being the Detective in all the Gameboards has literally zero weight; the argument goes that the writer puts Battler in that position to put him above suspicion, in effect making his role as detective the cover for the real-world culprit.

Shkanon, meanwhile, can be quite the opposite. A culprit in a gameboard who is innocent in the real world...
Black Battler is technically not only possible but as likely as everything else considering that the Red says, 戦人くんは犯人ではありませんよ。戦人くんは誰も殺してはいません。これは全てのゲームにおいて言えること です。 (Battler is not the culprit. Battler killed nobody. This is something that can be said regarding all games.) even the EP8 manga stresses that
Spoiler for EP8 manga:

The detective thing was also proven in EP6 when Erika was able to kill even if she just temporarily lost her detective status.

So exactly as Aura said, so far we are missing a good reason to why you refuse Shkannon as being implausible.
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Old 2013-07-30, 17:48   Link #5313
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
Now I almost wanna see a picture of you just to get an idea. Not that it's a bad or weird thing, I have a few friends that are outside the socially prescribed "norm" of gender, be it due to the way they dress, talk, look, or their actual biology. Hey, I myself am not gender-normative.
But having to wear the female school uniform? That kinda scrapes the barrel of weird...in terms of what society does to people.
Well I wasn't forced into it. XP I rocked that sailor fuku, yo.

Quote:
Confirmed that at one point, Kinzo either ran or looked over an orphanage, and from there Kannon and Shannon(Sayo) were adopted and made into servants.
I forgot to address this: Alpha-B, you can't just make up Reds like that, it invalidates the entire concept since you don't know if they're true or not.

The example I quoted isn't even a valid one, if only because Kinzo had nothing to do with Shannon and Kanon being 'adopted'; they're standard-raised Fukuin house servants that are officially identical to every other servant that comes in and out, and Genji handles that entire process.

If you're going to make up statements extrapolated from existing reds, you need to use Blue Truth; that's what it's for. You are using Red incorrectly. Therefore, you are not a witch. Witches don't exist! Zen zen dameda!
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Old 2013-07-31, 06:39   Link #5314
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Um, did I cause you guys some trouble or anything?
I only skimmed through the post since I saw the word Spoilers mentioned, so sorry if that was the case.

And what's a black Battler? Is it that "other Battler" that was hinted at? And why black, is he like afro-american? I haven't heard of him yet.
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Old 2013-07-31, 06:54   Link #5315
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Someone just decided to come in and start arguing with people about things that would be much better suited to the spoiler thread. I'd just abandon this topic now if I were you since everyone seems to have started debating about things from later in the series (and from apocryphal material, which is where Black Battler comes from).
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Old 2013-07-31, 07:42   Link #5316
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by Funyarinpa View Post
Um, did I cause you guys some trouble or anything?
I only skimmed through the post since I saw the word Spoilers mentioned, so sorry if that was the case.

And what's a black Battler? Is it that "other Battler" that was hinted at? And why black, is he like afro-american? I haven't heard of him yet.
Never mind about that. The next spoiler I see will be reported. The stuff about Black Battler is from a standalone spin-off, it is never mentioned in the main story (including tea parties).

So now that you got this far, try to think what it is that killed Battler in the 4th game at the end. No one but Battler was alive. Who/What could it be? Why did the games suddenly end at 24:00 all the time, even if some people were still alive? Why was Eva in EP3 the only exception? In retrospect, the answer is something that Battler already considered in EP4, but he severly miscalculated the scale of it.
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Old 2013-07-31, 11:17   Link #5317
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Well I wasn't forced into it. XP I rocked that sailor fuku, yo.



I forgot to address this: Alpha-B, you can't just make up Reds like that, it invalidates the entire concept since you don't know if they're true or not.

The example I quoted isn't even a valid one, if only because Kinzo had nothing to do with Shannon and Kanon being 'adopted'; they're standard-raised Fukuin house servants that are officially identical to every other servant that comes in and out, and Genji handles that entire process.

If you're going to make up statements extrapolated from existing reds, you need to use Blue Truth; that's what it's for. You are using Red incorrectly. Therefore, you are not a witch. Witches don't exist! Zen zen dameda!
I never made up anything, I may have misunderstood it but I didn't necessarily make up the fact that they were adopted.

Earlier, you made the argument that the servants(Shannon and Kanon) having the One-winged eagle was crucial to the Shakanon theory's plausibility.

I suggested the theory that the One-Winged Eagle is a stigma to represent possession. In the fourth game, Dr. Nanjo suggested that the cousins were the possessional worth that the siblings brought forth.

Similarly, Shannon and Kanon are "Kinzo's possession"(in Beatrice's words, they are his "furniture."). As such, the Eagle at least cannot prove one way or another on Shkanontrice's validity.

My apologies to Fuya about bringing up Black Battler. That was just me saying how Shakanontrice is implausible to me. Simply, the concept of several different beings existing with a different body is implausible.

Or at least, the idea of George "witnessing" Shannon, while the others can "witness" Kanon or so forth. To me, from a mystery perspective:

There's one culprit with his or her accomplices whose responsible for the events on Rokkenjima.

I won't argue who or what that is any longer though, it's just butting heads.
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Old 2013-07-31, 11:21   Link #5318
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Simply, the concept of several different beings existing with a different body is implausible.
You seem to be hugely misunderstanding the commonly accepted version of the theory if you think that anyone actually believes this. Regardless, this discussion shouldn't be taking place in this thread, since comprehensive discussion of the theories involved would require the use of information from the seventh episode in particular.
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Old 2013-07-31, 11:24   Link #5319
ALPHA-Beatrice
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
You seem to be hugely misunderstanding the commonly accepted version of the theory if you think that anyone actually believes this. Regardless, this discussion shouldn't be taking place in this thread, since comprehensive discussion of the theories involved would require the use of information from the seventh episode in particular.
Agreed. It wasn't my intention to actually start a debate about Shkanontrice but I believed Fuya was dangerously being pulled there without any objective analysis.

The beauty of Umineko is to be able to see with one's own love, I wanted to try to protect Fuya's ability to create his own truth within the game.
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Old 2013-07-31, 13:05   Link #5320
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Quote:
I never made up anything, I may have misunderstood it but I didn't necessarily make up the fact that they were adopted.
Yes it is. You can't just take your inferences as facts; they're not adopted, they're hired servants.

Quote:
Earlier, you made the argument that the servants(Shannon and Kanon) having the One-winged eagle was crucial to the Shakanon theory's plausibility.

I suggested the theory that the One-Winged Eagle is a stigma to represent possession. In the fourth game, Dr. Nanjo suggested that the cousins were the possessional worth that the siblings brought forth.
Every time it comes up, the One Winged Eagle on the servants represents that they're Kinzo's most trusted servants that he allows to personally attend to him and such. If the One Winged Eagle represents 'possession', then why doesn't Natsuhi have it because 'borrowed womb'?

Quote:
Simply, the concept of several different beings existing with a different body is implausible.
I can't think of anyone on this forum who actually believes that Shkanon is someone with multiple personalities, dude.
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