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Old 2010-01-19, 14:01   Link #941
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Well... the most simple logic would dictate that the most probable explanation is that a psycho with multiple personalities disorder decides to kill all the ushiromiya, by first making them participate in a sort of "let us scare Battler to death and make him believe the witch exist" and then kill them off easily after they have enacted their deaths in closed rooms and the likes. And then a big explosion in the end seals of the truth forever.
Except this person acts in contradictory ways (multiple personalities after all..) and sends money to close relatives as a way to compensate their loss, and writes message bottles as a way to make the legend live in the hope that someone will find the truth one day.
To me, this sounds oddly like something Maria would do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Latter, when Eva's group bursted into parlor again, they saw George's body with Shannon's body. So according to what you said, Sayo posed dead in the parlor, then after the adults left, she changed clothes, imposing as Kanon, and went to the chapel to pose as another dead body. Then, she somehow changed back to Shannon, and went back to the parlor, and was killed by an unknown person.
Remember the theory that there's a fake Shannon corpse floating around?
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Old 2010-01-19, 14:08   Link #942
Veripma
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Spoiler for Question:
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Old 2010-01-19, 14:10   Link #943
Antera Caramichael
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It's not so easy, a few hours after death, corpse are begining to smell, to rot and decompose.
It is not so easy to keep a corpse in a good state for long, even refrigerating left trace, moreover in the 80's.
That is why Kinzo's corpse is always burnt: In order to avoid a time of death.
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Old 2010-01-19, 14:13   Link #944
Used Can
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Well... the most simple logic would dictate that the most probable explanation is that a psycho with multiple personalities disorder decides to kill all the ushiromiya, by first making them participate in a sort of "let us scare Battler to death and make him believe the witch exist" and then kill them off easily after they have enacted their deaths in closed rooms and the likes. And then a big explosion in the end seals of the truth forever.
Except this person acts in contradictory ways (multiple personalities after all..) and sends money to close relatives as a way to compensate their loss, and writes message bottles as a way to make the legend live in the hope that someone will find the truth one day.
This is starting to sound like crappy copypasta from "And then there were none" and the movie "Identity," but with fantasy scenes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veripma View Post
Spoiler for Question:
Not much happens.

- Battler and Beatrice get married.
- Beatrice calls Kanon as a reward for helping Battler. Jessica cries when he shows up.
- Then Beatrice calls George and Shannon and congratulates them for having won Z&F's game.
- Eva shows up and somewhat gives them their blessings.
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Old 2010-01-19, 14:19   Link #945
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antera Caramichael View Post
It's not so easy, a few hours after death, corpse are begining to smell, to rot and decompose.
It is not so easy to keep a corpse in a good state for long, even refrigerating left trace, moreover in the 80's.
That is why Kinzo's corpse is always burnt: In order to avoid a time of death.
Well, Shannon has usually been dead for quite a while by the time they find her anyway... and I think it really depends on the environment the corpse is kept in. It won't decompose nearly as fast in a dry, clean environment, and, besides, one version of the theory is that the corpse is Erika's, who would have died recently anyway. Added to this, the only doctor in the game is known to lie frequently for whatever reason, so...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
This is starting to sound like crappy copypasta from "And then there were none" and the movie "Identity," but with fantasy scenes.
And I don't know much about the latter, but And Then There Were None was a horrible mystery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
- Battler and Beatrice get married.
- Beatrice calls Kanon as a reward for helping Battler. Jessica cries when he shows up.
- Then Beatrice calls George and Shannon and congratulates them for having won Z&F's game.
- Eva shows up and somewhat gives them their blessings.
This sounds like such terrible shipper service... it can't be real in any sense of the word. >_>
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Old 2010-01-19, 14:20   Link #946
momobunny
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post

Not much happens.

- Battler and Beatrice get married.
- Beatrice calls Kanon as a reward for helping Battler. Jessica cries when he shows up.
- Then Beatrice calls George and Shannon and congratulates them for having won Z&F's game.
- Eva shows up and somewhat gives them their blessings.
... and that's "Not much" how? O.o;
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Old 2010-01-19, 14:24   Link #947
Used Can
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
And I don't know much about the latter, but And Then There Were None was a horrible mystery.
Try watching that movie, it was based on "And there were none". It's shit for mystery, but it's great for suspense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maho Momo View Post
... and that's "Not much" how? O.o;
Because "There can be only one".
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Old 2010-01-19, 14:58   Link #948
musouka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Remember the theory that there's a fake Shannon corpse floating around?
Red text:
"No corpses exist except those of characters who have appeared in the story."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
This sounds like such terrible shipper service... it can't be real in any sense of the word. >_>
Well, it's real in that's how the tea party was. Where things go from here is really anyone's guess.
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Old 2010-01-19, 15:04   Link #949
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
"No corpses exist except those of characters who have appeared in the story."
Isn't that red from Ep5? If so, then the fake corpse is Erika's, which washed ashore. Simple.
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Old 2010-01-19, 15:26   Link #950
Antera Caramichael
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but she hasn't appear in Ep1-4 story
And even with this, there is no way they could mistaken Shanon which is adult like with Erika which is a middleschool girl.
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Old 2010-01-19, 15:34   Link #951
Used Can
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Maybe they used Kinzo's corpse.

Eva: Is it me, or has Shannon-chan gained some weight?
Rudolph: I'd still hit it.
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Old 2010-01-19, 15:41   Link #952
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antera Caramichael View Post
but she hasn't appear in Ep1-4 story
And even with this, there is no way they could mistaken Shanon which is adult like with Erika which is a middleschool girl.
Well, as for the first, it doesn't matter... the red in question was only used during Ep. 5, and before that, the red regarding the identity of unidentified corpses specifically excepts Shannon (and Krauss, but he doesn't matter).

As for the second... well, if you subscribe to Shkannon in any way, that maid uniform obviously has pads...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Maybe they used Kinzo's corpse.

Eva: Is it me, or has Shannon-chan gained some weight?
Rudolph: I'd still hit it.
Wouldn't that be awkward.
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Old 2010-01-19, 16:01   Link #953
Marion
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My problem with Erika being a fake corpses is that

1) We have no knowledge of her existence until EP 5. Therefore using her to solve the game, when we had no idea she was even a possible element, technically goes against Knox Rule #8 (clues must be given) and the idea that you can use EP 1-4 alone to solve the game.

2) Erika is clearly a younger looking girl than Shannon. I'm sure Nanjo or Hideyoshi would have noticed, unless they decided to lie.

3) Erika is literally a random element. We don't know if she washes up on shore or not in the other games, whether it be dead or alive. This is why Hachijou was suddenly able to write her into the story, because there is a possibility of her washing up but it's also a possibility that she doesn't wash up.
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Old 2010-01-19, 16:43   Link #954
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
And even if we were shown fantasy scene, Dlanor told us that pieces could not do things too much contrary to their own nature. So I can conclude that George and Sayo's love were true and mutual.
If "pretending to love someone" is in the nature of a piece, then the piece is not acting against his or her nature when faking love, and any scene depicting that cannot be taken to suggest that the love is genuine.

The same is true of things like "pretending not to know what's going on" or "pretending they aren't plotting murder." Some piece on the board - perhaps several - is killing people in a rather horrible manner. In fact, we know this has to be true. Somebody's true nature is a lie. Even ep6 doesn't seem to give us a particularly valid reason for our major suspects to be killing. So either we've got the wrong person, or the wrong reason, or we're being shown the person's deceptive side.

Dlanor's point is more that a piece cannot be made to do things contrary to its nature, but the game might depict them doing things that are against their nature if it can be explained without directly contradicting what that piece would do. If it isn't in Krauss's nature to go for a walk in the woods, then in no episode can he take a walk in the woods. But it might be in his nature to lie about his location, in which case he might say "I was walking in the woods," or even have a scene showing him walking in the woods even though that's false. Likewise, some character is giving off the impression it isn't in their nature to kill. But that's a lie, it isn't against their nature, and neither is lying about or concealing it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Mate, there are 16-17 people in Rokkenjima who always die throughout the story, except for Battler who always lives until the end. This pattern always happens except when Eva killed him, and when he pretended to be dead in EP6. I'm sure his survival is everything but coincidence. They even made a point out of this in EP5.
I doubt it is a coincidence, but the chance of it being so is not altogether impossible. The problem is you can't assume the killings are random (even if the First Twilight is, there's still a 66% chance of surviving every given game) and you have to take into account how the remaining people behave. Battler tends to play it safe. Even if the killer wanted to take him out, would it be that simple?

I highly doubt there isn't a good reason Battler is always surviving so late, although when "Beatrice" dies or otherwise is unable to protect him further I have to assume his continued survival becomes a matter of coincidence and the foresight to stick with other survivors rather than someone actively watching out for him. Being the last person alive in ep4 almost certainly was the result of the second-to-last person alive either refusing to kill him or dying before they were able to. In the latter case it would be a coincidence, and not an enormous one really.

RANDOM FUN FACT: The chance of surviving a completely random First Twilight four times in succession is about 19%. There's about a 1% chance of being chosen all four times. Of course, no one person was ever chosen all four times in the first four episodes. And this probability assumes a 1:18, even though it possibly should be 1:16 (Kinzo not counted, the killer him or herself not counted). Of course ep3 proves Kinzo is still a valid choice, and the only person who could be the "killer excluded" from a random selection would be Dr. Nanjo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Latter, when Eva's group bursted into parlor again, they saw George's body with Shannon's body. So according to what you said, Sayo posed dead in the parlor, then after the adults left, she changed clothes, imposing as Kanon, and went to the chapel to pose as another dead body. Then, she somehow changed back to Shannon, and went back to the parlor, and was killed by an unknown person.

Why she had to change back into Shannon and why did someone else know that she was not "dead" back in the parlor ?
This is an obvious problem, especially because there is no particular reason to believe the parlor will be the first room entered by the adults. What if Rudolf and Krauss decided not to break out a window and enter the parlor? What if they decided to break down the boiler room doors, or try to enter through the courtyard? What if they had broken into the chapel first? How would Shkanon know which body to pose as first, and which to pose as after, and then why or how would he or she have been killed? Also it has the problem of "six people" being dead in red. Which six people? If you're going by Shkanon, I only count five.

Last edited by Renall; 2010-01-19 at 17:05.
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Old 2010-01-19, 17:25   Link #955
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Which six people? If you're going by Shkanon, I only count five.
Any Shkannon theory assumes that they CAN count as different people for the purposes of the count... this would explain Erika's red in Ep5.
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Old 2010-01-19, 17:30   Link #956
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As for Battler playing it safe:
In Episode 1, around lunchtime, Battler left the parlor to visit the servants in the kitchen.
At the end of Episode 2, Battler was lying around getting drunk.
Similarly, Battler was sleeping in the open in Episode 4.
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Old 2010-01-19, 17:30   Link #957
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Any Shkannon theory assumes that they CAN count as different people for the purposes of the count... this would explain Erika's red in Ep5.
Then I consider that a rather serious problem that Shkanon should not be allowed to dodge. Semantically, I can accept "killing" a personality (even if I don't believe it to be rationally possible in the real world, I'll accept it in fiction). Thus, "Kanon died in this room" is acceptable to me as a strictly metaphorical statement.

However, I cannot accept "Person 1, Person 2, Person 3, Person 4, Person 5, Person 3's Alternate Personality, six people are dead!" Besides, if Shkanon is also Beatrice, then Beatrice is also dead, so it should be seven people. Granted, you can say "six people are dead" when seven people are, but at that point I'm rolling my eyes hard.
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Old 2010-01-19, 17:34   Link #958
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Then I consider that a rather serious problem that Shkanon should not be allowed to dodge. Semantically, I can accept "killing" a personality (even if I don't believe it to be rationally possible in the real world, I'll accept it in fiction). Thus, "Kanon died in this room" is acceptable to me as a strictly metaphorical statement.

However, I cannot accept "Person 1, Person 2, Person 3, Person 4, Person 5, Person 3's Alternate Personality, six people are dead!" Besides, if Shkanon is also Beatrice, then Beatrice is also dead, so it should be seven people. Granted, you can say "six people are dead" when seven people are, but at that point I'm rolling my eyes hard.
The big problem is all of them had wounds resembling gunshot wounds that became fatal, which ought to kill off all of Shkannon's personalities no matter how many of them there are.

EDIT:
...Wait a second. The Japanese for that line is:
彼ら全員には致命傷となった銃創と思わしき傷痕があったぞ!

Shouldn't that instead be translated as:
All of them had wounds that were thought to be fatal gunshot wounds!

Because if they were only thought to be fatal, that's a whole different kettle of seagulls.

Last edited by LyricalAura; 2010-01-19 at 17:45.
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Old 2010-01-19, 17:51   Link #959
TDS
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Battler isn't the only person who had a pattern to their deaths (or lack thereof).

Maria survives through games 1, 2, and 4. She dies in the 3rd game after Beato loses control of the game to Eva-Beatrice, and on the first twilight of the 5th game where Beato never had control of the game board.

In other words, whenever Beato loses control of the game board Maria dies on the first twilight after the loss of control.
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Old 2010-01-19, 18:00   Link #960
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Maria also died in EP4. Battler found her dead.
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