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Old 2010-01-21, 03:38   Link #1061
ijriims
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Battler was in love with his (step)-mother. (Obviously it is not how I view it, but I guess someone may look at it in this way. EP6's newBeatrice was specially made by and for Battler, who had different character, motive from the initial Beatrice.)

If you can bear this implication, then perhaps you would make sense of this game more than believing Shannon as Beatrice and mastermind.

My advice for anyone in confusion for EP6.

I have long proposed a way to solve the 17/18 person for the last mystery for EP6. But it seemed that everyone just wanted to adhere to Shakanon theory or eliminate Erika from the game.

I called it "Kanon codename theory".
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Last edited by ijriims; 2010-01-21 at 03:50.
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Old 2010-01-21, 03:41   Link #1062
Renall
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I do think that you can solve the game without relying on motive, though. It just won't be the elegant solution Umineko is supposed to have, apparently.
If I were able to solve the who and what factors of the mystery 100% and got the why absolutely wrong, I would feel pretty bad. Just knowing who did everything really doesn't satisfy me, and if he means the games are "solvable" in the sense of knowing who and how, I'm really not sure that's a proper solution. Problem is, there are precious few characters whose motives we've seen deeply enough to imagine them killing, and even those are a stretch. Take George; sure, he's shown a ruthless side several times, but the one example we've been given of him actually killing is... rather obviously fictionalized. To believe he's the killer, we'd have to further take a leap of faith as to his motivations.

I'm not entirely comfortable with that. I'm not sure that's what r07's asking us to do. After all, Erika basically says in ep5 that once you figure out the who and what you can easily figure out the why, but as Natsuhi's breakdown proves, that's really not true. And if Natsuhi - an innocent - is too hard to figure out, imagine trying to puzzle out the complex nature of a killer.

But if he's expecting us to do that, he needs to have given us some pretty meaty motives already. There have been some, but I've dismissed most of them as being... unsatisfactory. But without those, what am I really left with?
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Old 2010-01-21, 03:46   Link #1063
ijriims
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But if he's expecting us to do that, he needs to have given us some pretty meaty motives already. There have been some, but I've dismissed most of them as being... unsatisfactory. But without those, what am I really left with?
I think the motive has great connection to this famous line "without love, it cannot be seen."

The dialogue between Beatrice and Battler in EP4 also gave idea what sort of belief Beatrice was holding.

The keyword is "family", not "romantic love"
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Old 2010-01-21, 03:47   Link #1064
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I think the motive has great connection to this famous line "without love, it cannot be seen."
Are you suggesting the culprit is killing out of love?
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Old 2010-01-21, 03:49   Link #1065
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I just wish I knew if he was actually expecting people to be able to solve it, or if it has been solved and it was just such an "easy" answer we all ignored it because there was nothing more to say on it. But as I said before ep5 came out, I don't really buy that it's that solvable right now. He might think it is, but I've really got my doubts right now.
That reminds me of what Virgilia said about how even if the mystery is solvable to Beato after making it easier, it's not necessarily the same for Battler. heck the guy had to die to get it
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Old 2010-01-21, 03:50   Link #1066
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
*snip*
So your solution to those confused about Ep6 is to believe in your (very farfetched) theory?

Um.

Look, man, the reason not many people pay attention to your theories is because they're even more unlikely than the ones I come up with, and furthermore, they're completely unfounded. Next to nothing in the text supports anything you say.

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But if he's expecting us to do that, he needs to have given us some pretty meaty motives already. There have been some, but I've dismissed most of them as being... unsatisfactory. But without those, what am I really left with?
Well, there are two ways to look at this: Like a good mystery author, he's hiding satisfactory clues so well that we'll never see them, or he's a lying hack.

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Are you suggesting the culprit is killing out of love?
This kind of makes sense, actually.

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Originally Posted by Dark0303 View Post
That reminds me of what Virgilia said about how even if the mystery is solvable to Beato after making it easier, it's not necessarily the same for Battler. heck the guy had to die to get it
I just pointed that out like half a page ago...
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Old 2010-01-21, 03:55   Link #1067
ijriims
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So your solution to those confused about Ep6 is to believe in your (very farfetched) theory?
Wait, wait. Can you summarize my theory of whodunit, whydunit in one or two short sentences?

I want to see if you are really opposing my theory or just a misunderstood version of it.

I could quote the texts which support my theory, however, I need to get an English patch first and had one or two hours of spare time...

And the "Kanon codename theory" was completely independent of my other theory. In short, Sayo killed Yoshiya during 4th Oct but before Erika actually arrived at Rokkenjima. Genji said they two were to bear the codename "Kanon" now so as to finish "Kanon"'s job. To say Battler from his room was "Kanon"'s job, and so Sayo saved Battler from the guestroom was performing Kanon's duty, and thus she was Kanon. However, Erika understood Kanon as Yoshiya so her blue texts missed.

Erika was the 18th person on Rokkenjima from the start of 4th Oct, 1986.

There were 17 living people on Rokkenjima when Erika was received.
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Last edited by ijriims; 2010-01-21 at 04:10.
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Old 2010-01-21, 03:56   Link #1068
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By the way, when I say "killing out of love," I don't mean "killing for love."

George killing Eva so he could marry Shannon would be "killing for love."

Nanjo and Kumasawa killing everyone because of how badly screwed up and miserable they are would be "killing out of love." Granted, in this case they'd be obviously wrong and obviously more than a little bit unhinged, but murder can seem to have a good reason and still go beyond the pale.

I mean more that the killer, whoever they are, could see themselves as killing for a compassionate reason. I ascribed a similar, but more coldly pragmatic motive to a George-as-mastermind theory once, but in this case I'm proposing more a sort of twisted compassion.

It makes a degree of sense; for instance, most of the First Twilight victims seem like they might have been poisoned in several episodes. Of course, you'd have to explain how a "compassionate" killer thinks this is going to help, why they'd permit the survivors to suffer for a while, and why they didn't realize they'd be leaving Ange miserable and alone... but maybe that's the reason they're wrong in the first place.
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Old 2010-01-21, 04:02   Link #1069
ijriims
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
By the way, when I say "killing out of love," I don't mean "killing for love."

George killing Eva so he could marry Shannon would be "killing for love."

Nanjo and Kumasawa killing everyone because of how badly screwed up and miserable they are would be "killing out of love." Granted, in this case they'd be obviously wrong and obviously more than a little bit unhinged, but murder can seem to have a good reason and still go beyond the pale.
I would say if the culprit was merciless, then she did not need to give the letter to Maria and proclaim that the game has started and urged them to solve the epitaph. She could just kill everyone instantly without letting anyone knowing about the plan.

Because of "heart" of Beatrice she holds.


She was also sorry about the killing so she send money to the deceased's relatives.

She already gives chance to everyone, and she even planned the killing so that they could get serious. So in the end, if miracle happened, someone could survive instead of all people died in the end.

She was lenient, you know...

But you may ask why she has to kill all people, well she has her own responsibility and she has to keep her promise...
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Old 2010-01-21, 04:06   Link #1070
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One could just as easily argue telling people about the plan is less compassionate, unless the killer actually intends to stop killing. Just blowing them up or poisoning them all at once seems a bit more caring than raising their hopes only to kill them anyway.

Though there's no accounting for theatrics. It'd be a rather dull mystery that way, after all.
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Old 2010-01-21, 04:08   Link #1071
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Wait, wait. Can you summarize my theory of whodunit, whydunit in one or two short sentences?

I want to see if you are really opposing my theory or just a misunderstood version of it.
Kyrie is Beatrice. She is killing out of concern for Maria.

Something like that? In any case, Beatrice holds a romantic love for Battler. Beatrice is nineteen. This is practically confirmed in Ep6.

It's not Kyrie.

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*killing out of love*
It. That. I love this theory.

...You're perfectly right about everyone being screwed up... all of the non-Nanjo, non-servant characters are shown as being at least a little bit amoral and twisted, even Hideyoshi.

Jessica and George seem to especially get this kind of treatment in Ep6, where George is revealed to be an insecure jealous pedophile (Really, George? Falling for a ten-year-old at seventeen? Really?) and Jessica as an immature, bratty teenage girl with absolutely no understanding of what love means. And this is presented as a positive thing.

...Yeah, I'd kill them all too.

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One could just as easily argue telling people about the plan is less compassionate, unless the killer actually intends to stop killing. Just blowing them up or poisoning them all at once seems a bit more caring than raising their hopes only to kill them anyway.

Though there's no accounting for theatrics. It'd be a rather dull mystery that way, after all.
What's particularly awesome about this theory is that not only does it offer a motive that's both consistent and unexpected, it also explains the bomb/bomb theory.

...Now the question is how Battler's sin relates to this.
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Old 2010-01-21, 04:08   Link #1072
k//eternal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
I have long proposed a way to solve the 17/18 person for the last mystery for EP6. But it seemed that everyone just wanted to adhere to Shakanon theory or eliminate Erika from the game.

I called it "Kanon codename theory".
Searching "codename" in this thread yields only this post and I don't remember hearing your theory in detail. Can you elaborate on it?

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
By the way, when I say "killing out of love," I don't mean "killing for love."

George killing Eva so he could marry Shannon would be "killing for love."

Nanjo and Kumasawa killing everyone because of how badly screwed up and miserable they are would be "killing out of love."
This is interesting. To riff on it a little bit (although I don't know whether this is what you have in mind), here's something I just thought up: Krauss' actions were going to lead the Ushiromiya family to ruin, as we've seen in EP5. That would probably destroy the reputation that Kinzo had worked hard to build up.

If somebody had an interest in preserving the reputation of the family, the deaths of the entire family would pretty much cement it. Instead of being a family that squandered its massive wealth, they'd be remembered as a wealthy family that all tragically died for some mysterious reason. The puzzle presented by the witch stories in the bottles basically would serve as a further distraction.

It's a decent motive, as long as there's a suitable person to have it.
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Old 2010-01-21, 04:11   Link #1073
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It's a decent motive, as long as there's a suitable person to have it.
Genji. Unfortunately, there's that red involving him not murdering anyone.

Unless you don't consider what's effectively mercy killing to be murder.
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Old 2010-01-21, 04:16   Link #1074
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
I would say if the culprit was merciless, then she did not need to give the letter to Maria and proclaim that the game has started and urged them to solve the epitaph. She could just kill everyone instantly without letting anyone knowing about the plan.

Because of "heart" of Beatrice she holds.


She was also sorry about the killing so she send money to the deceased's relatives.

She already gives chance to everyone, and she even planned the killing so that they could get serious. So in the end, if miracle happened, someone could survive instead of all people died in the end.

She was lenient, you know...

But you may ask why she has to kill all people, well she has her own responsibility and she has to keep her promise...
Alarm bells are ringing but i cant seem to put my finger on it..
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Old 2010-01-21, 04:18   Link #1075
ijriims
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Kyrie is Beatrice. She is killing out of concern for Maria.

Something like that? In any case, Beatrice holds a romantic love for Battler. Beatrice is nineteen. This is practically confirmed in Ep6.

It's not Kyrie.
EP6 newBeatrice holds a romantic love for Battler. (It was stated a few times in EP6 while newBeatrice was having the same body as the initial Beatrice. Her personality and memory differed depending on how she was grown up.

Because this newBeatrice was created by Battler, information about her does not apply 100% for the initial Beatrice.


The original owner of Rokkenjima was nineteen.

You still remembered that in Ep3 Beatrice said that she was summoned by Kinzo, then she was entrapped by him. She lost her life then Kinzo used alchemy to create a new body to imprison her.

From her dialogue with Kinzo and Rosa, we could infer that everyone told her she was the Golden Witch and thus the owner of Rokkenjima.

This Beatrice was the original owner. She was 19 years old as a human. (after she fell down from the cliff, her soul was freed and returned as a incorporeal witch. Then she ceased to be a human.)

--------------

"Kyrie is Beatrice. She is killing out of concern for Maria."

Somehow close. But I can see that what you oppose is not Beatrice caring for Maria but rather Kyrie caring for Maria.

Of course she killed out of care, but also because she has promised to bring Maria to the golden land (Maria always said this). And she had made a deal with Kinzo as well (the first letter).

The whydunit is quite long. Let's see if I could find all the relevant clues presented to you.
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Old 2010-01-21, 04:20   Link #1076
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...Now the question is how Battler's sin relates to this.
Battler's sin could be an unrelated matter, so to speak. Just because people die because Battler sinned doesn't mean the sin is specifically what caused the killer to kill. So long as the killer (I'll call them the Love-Killer for short, in part because I don't know who it would be) is aware of the sin and has drawn a conclusion from it, the rest is fine.

For instance, the sin could've been what a lot of people are saying, Battler breaking a promise to Shannon. Okay. To "Beatrice," if she's Shannon, the sin is important. But if Shannontrice isn't the killer, then the sin just matters to her because of her own personal satisfaction.

To the Love-Killer, the sin is important merely because it exists. It happened. The Love-Killer could believe the Ushiromiya family to be essentially irredeemable, and the sin six years ago was proof of it. However, they weren't going to kill if it meant Battler surviving, so they had to wait for him to return.

In this case, were it true, the Love-Killer would essentially be compassionately ending people's lives because he/she believes they will never be able to find love and family. Battler's sin, the greed of the parents, the screwed-up way their kids are behaving, the crazy servants, it's all something that's made them give up hope.

The only way to foil this killer would be to prove them wrong. Imparting them to solve the epitaph might simply be a question asked by the Love-Killer: Can you come together as a family to save yourselves? Is there any part of you left that's worth saving? This would be about the only way to achieve a completely happy ending under this scenario. The family comes together, proves that they really are a family, demonstrates love, and stays the Love-Killer's hand.

But that's just a motive without any real meat to it. A "why" without a "who" or "how." Though it certainly puts a different spin on Dr. Nanjo as a suspect. What's a good way to make a man bitter about love and family? Watch his best friend's family fall apart, deny his friend a funeral, and have his own grandchild struck by an incurable illness. Kumasawa might also work, though she seemed to have a pretty good family herself. Then again, maybe seeing what a family is would instruct one on what a family is not.
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Old 2010-01-21, 04:21   Link #1077
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
EP6 newBeatrice holds a romantic love for Battler. (It was stated a few times in EP6 while newBeatrice was having the same body as the initial Beatrice. Her personality and memory differed depending on how she was grown up.

Because this newBeatrice was created by Battler, information about her does not apply 100% for the initial Beatrice.
Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggh!

There's that entire flashback sequence where Battler describes his ideal girl to someone! Then that person decides to 'create' a Beatrice to hold her desire for Battler, which he/she is no longer allowed to have!

And if your defense is still "that wasn't a flashback because it uses the 1986 Battler sprite" I have nothing more to say to you.
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Old 2010-01-21, 04:23   Link #1078
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If somebody had an interest in preserving the reputation of the family, the deaths of the entire family would pretty much cement it. Instead of being a family that squandered its massive wealth, they'd be remembered as a wealthy family that all tragically died for some mysterious reason. The puzzle presented by the witch stories in the bottles basically would serve as a further distraction.

It's a decent motive, as long as there's a suitable person to have it.
Annnd we are back to Natsuhi. She has ridiculously high honor values, strong pride, endearing role model. Maybe somewhere down the line she solved the epigraph and attained the Endless magic which lead to the mass murders. but then how do we connect Battlers sin to this.
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Old 2010-01-21, 04:26   Link #1079
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But that's just a motive without any real meat to it. A "why" without a "who" or "how." Though it certainly puts a different spin on Dr. Nanjo as a suspect. What's a good way to make a man bitter about love and family? Watch his best friend's family fall apart, deny his friend a funeral, and have his own grandchild struck by an incurable illness. Kumasawa might also work, though she seemed to have a pretty good family herself. Then again, maybe seeing what a family is would instruct one on what a family is not.
This is making so much sense. Maybe Nanjo and Kumasawa are working together? They're about the only people on that island who appear to have any sense whatsoever.

There's actually a lot of stuff that supports this, looking back...

I think you might have solved Umineko. >_>
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Old 2010-01-21, 04:28   Link #1080
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It would also work with Shannon-culprit as a theory, mind you. In that case, she'd simply decide to kill because in each episode she holds out hope for Battler and realizes he has forgotten in a different fashion each time. The important thing here is that it would fit the red text Virgilia provided in ep5; the killings would not be for revenge, and not be to make a person feel fear. After all, from the Love-Killer's point of view, they're suffering and lost while they're alive. Being dead would be a blessing to them. At least so far as he/she sees it.
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