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Old 2010-01-21, 04:29   Link #1081
ijriims
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggh!

There's that entire flashback sequence where Battler describes his ideal girl to someone! Then that person decides to 'create' a Beatrice to hold her desire for Battler, which he/she is no longer allowed to have!

And if your defense is still "that wasn't a flashback because it uses the 1986 Battler sprite" I have nothing more to say to you.
I think if you read those lines for the monologue after the flashback scene closely, then you should see that someone was talking to "the Big Sis Beatrice", rather than the initial Beatrice you were thinking about. Some of the lines were vague in meaning if it was the initial Beatrice, however, if you substitute "Big Sis Beatrice" into it, then it became meaningful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It would also work with Shannon-culprit as a theory, mind you. In that case, she'd simply decide to kill because in each episode she holds out hope for Battler and realizes he has forgotten in a different fashion each time. The important thing here is that it would fit the red text Virgilia provided in ep5; the killings would not be for revenge, and not be to make a person feel fear. After all, from the Love-Killer's point of view, they're suffering and lost while they're alive. Being dead would be a blessing to them. At least so far as he/she sees it.
The priority of ending in Beatrice's thoughts:

1. The siblings teamed up together and solved the epitaph right after they received the letter during the dinner and solved it, resolving their own disputes. So everyone lives.

2. People turned the attention to the epitaph and tried to solved the epitaph, however some people were already killed. But at least someone had reached the Golden Land and understood the meaning behind the epitaph. Some people survived.

3. No one paid attention to epitaph despite the murders and letters. Everyone died in the end by the "heart" of Beatrice.

3 is the most probable result, while 1 needs miracle. A less miraculous result will be 2.
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Last edited by ijriims; 2010-01-21 at 04:42.
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Old 2010-01-21, 04:31   Link #1082
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
I think if you read those lines for the monologue after the flashback scene closely, then you should see that someone was talking to "the Big Sis Beatrice", rather than the initial Beatrice you were thinking about.
...I don't think that this is true, as practically everyone else who's read Ep6 seems to think otherwise, but since I haven't read it yet, I'll give you that.
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Old 2010-01-21, 04:33   Link #1083
Dr. Akagi
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Luv-Kira?

That could actually work. And needless to say, it's way better than Shannon going bonkers over an unrequited love, (optionally?) developing a split personality and massacring the entire cast.
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Old 2010-01-21, 04:41   Link #1084
k//eternal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
This is making so much sense. Maybe Nanjo and Kumasawa are working together? They're about the only people on that island who appear to have any sense whatsoever.

There's actually a lot of stuff that supports this, looking back...

I think you might have solved Umineko. >_>
Maybe we can pull Genji back on the wagon as an accomplice, after Nanjo convinces him to save Kinzo's honor?

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Originally Posted by Dr. Akagi View Post
Luv-Kira?

That could actually work. And needless to say, it's way better than Shannon going bonkers over an unrequited love, (optionally?) developing a split personality and massacring the entire cast.
The one ingredient it needs is an explanation of the extra person. Shkanontrice conveniently combines all of those problems, so even if it's a "weird" solution, it's actually sort of elegant.

Hell, maybe they're both correct. We've been saying all along that there are probably multiple killer "teams", after all...
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Old 2010-01-21, 04:43   Link #1085
ijriims
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
...I don't think that this is true, as practically everyone else who's read Ep6 seems to think otherwise, but since I haven't read it yet, I'll give you that.
So you came here to be spoiled...
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Old 2010-01-21, 04:45   Link #1086
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
I think if you read those lines for the monologue after the flashback scene closely, then you should see that someone was talking to "the Big Sis Beatrice", rather than the initial Beatrice you were thinking about.
I think if you read Ange and Feather's discussion about the origin of Egg Beatrice again, you'll realize that Feather already denied your interpretation. She said, very clearly, that the Egg Beatrice piece was created by the original Beatrice, and that all Battler did was place that piece on the board.
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Old 2010-01-21, 04:50   Link #1087
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k//eternal View Post

The one ingredient it needs is an explanation of the extra person. Shkanontrice conveniently combines all of those problems, so even if it's a "weird" solution, it's actually sort of elegant.
Can't really speculate on the "person count" part of it, have to read Ep6 in its entirety for that.

Spoiler for Thanks!:
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Last edited by Dr. Akagi; 2010-01-21 at 05:11.
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Old 2010-01-21, 04:52   Link #1088
Used Can
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Personally, I'm sure the game is solvable. Well, perhaps not so much by EP4, as the whydunit would still be not too clear. But I'm sure the howdunit and whodunit are definitely possible to solve. But, well, Van Dine said the whydunit is for fags. All the same, R07 has already broke most of Van Dine's rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Battler was in love with his (step)-mother.
I demand shota Battler x Asumu dōjins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Nanjo and Kumasawa killing everyone because of how badly screwed up and miserable they are would be "killing out of love." Granted, in this case they'd be obviously wrong and obviously more than a little bit unhinged, but murder can seem to have a good reason and still go beyond the pale.

I mean more that the killer, whoever they are, could see themselves as killing for a compassionate reason. I ascribed a similar, but more coldly pragmatic motive to a George-as-mastermind theory once, but in this case I'm proposing more a sort of twisted compassion.
Oh, yes, just like as in "And then there wer.... wait!
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Old 2010-01-21, 05:16   Link #1089
ijriims
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I think if you read Ange and Feather's discussion about the origin of Egg Beatrice again, you'll realize that Feather already denied your interpretation. She said, very clearly, that the Egg Beatrice piece was created by the original Beatrice, and that all Battler did was place that piece on the board.
I don't know it...(my Japanese is bad, actually)

But I can make use of this new piece of information.

So does it mean that the monologue to Beatrice was actually done by the initial Beatrice to newBeatrice, when newBeatrice was just created by the initial Beatrice, it was not about the creation of initial beatrice...



Still, better wait for the fully translated version...
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Old 2010-01-21, 05:20   Link #1090
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Oh, yes, just like as in "And then there wer.... wait!
Was that what happened? The only thing I remember of that mystery is how confusing and bad it was.

Well then, this theory should have been obvious, since Umineko has been based off of And Then There Were None since day one.
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Old 2010-01-21, 05:33   Link #1091
Used Can
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Was that what happened? The only thing I remember of that mystery is how confusing and bad it was.
Spoiler for And then there were none:
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Old 2010-01-21, 07:00   Link #1092
Dr. Akagi
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
But, well, Van Dine said the whydunit is for fags.
Did he, really? I couldn’t agree more.

The “how” and, to a lesser degree, “who” parts are central to a mystery story (at least, the classical variety), while any writer competent enough with the technical part (i.e. howdoneit) should be able to come up with some BS for a motive, and I’m afraid more often than not the motive becomes more or less an afterthought when developing a mystery story.

As for the motive’s credibility, it can be arbitrary as hell, but shouldn’t abuse suspension of disbelief or openly mock the reader’s common sense. Of course such criteria are open to interpretation themselves, and one has to decide for himself what should be considered a “reasonable motive”.

For example, if we compare the possible “Love-Killer”’s (lets, for the sake of argument, claim that Genji is the one) motive and “Shannon as Beatrice as the mastermind”’s motive, I’d buy the former more willingly than the latter.

What do we know about Genji by the end of ep6? Nothing definite, really, since he’s got almost zero character development except for his being the strong, silent type and a faithful if somewhat proud servant who’s probably served under Kinzo for most of his life. This fits the Love-Killer’s profile perfectly because you don’t have any conflicting info to reconcile simply because of lack of info on Genji in general.

On the other hand, we have Shannon with her George marriage subplot, her Kanon furniture rebellion subplot, her internal monologues, her meetings with Beato, the fact that she last met Battler when she was 10 and hadn’t heard from him since etc. etc. Making her the culprit may still work out fine in the end, probably, it’s just not that… economical, meaning it requires explanations which some people at least are certain to perceive as stretching it a bit too far. (The same obviously applies to the Shkanon theory).
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Old 2010-01-21, 09:06   Link #1093
arson88
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Eerr, did Ryukishi07 reveal Jessica's personality when she was younger? I don't seem to recall any info in ep 1 - 5...
Is Umineko a multiple murderer story orchestrated by Beatrice? Is it possible that the oath secrecy of Kinzo's corpse or death was used as a bargaining chip to assist in the murder? Kumasawa is probably offered the answer to the epitaph. Nanjo's reward is money. So Beatrice's motive is mixed with her puppet's motive.

Last edited by arson88; 2010-01-21 at 09:20.
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Old 2010-01-21, 10:25   Link #1094
MeoTwister5
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How ironic. I had just reached the Logic Error and my mind took a massive shit on itself. I understood nothing out of that. I'm gonna have to play that scene again. Sigh...

Edit - Ok guys I have a request: can someone who thinks they have a good grasp of the logic error pm me with their take on the entire issue. Having to translate it is hard enough, but having to deal with the logic error's temporal conflict in it's core is making things worse. I don't want to post the summary until I'm sure I have a firm grasp of what I'm reading.

Last edited by MeoTwister5; 2010-01-21 at 11:10.
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Old 2010-01-21, 11:29   Link #1095
imaginari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k//eternal View Post
If somebody had an interest in preserving the reputation of the family, the deaths of the entire family would pretty much cement it.
This works for me. It's the only way that I know of that being murdered and finding the gold would accomplish the same goal. There are still tons of questions left, but this could be a big piece of the puzzle.
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Old 2010-01-21, 12:52   Link #1096
TDS
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Battler's sin could be an unrelated matter, so to speak. Just because people die because Battler sinned doesn't mean the sin is specifically what caused the killer to kill. So long as the killer (I'll call them the Love-Killer for short, in part because I don't know who it would be) is aware of the sin and has drawn a conclusion from it, the rest is fine.

For instance, the sin could've been what a lot of people are saying, Battler breaking a promise to Shannon. Okay. To "Beatrice," if she's Shannon, the sin is important. But if Shannontrice isn't the killer, then the sin just matters to her because of her own personal satisfaction.

To the Love-Killer, the sin is important merely because it exists. It happened. The Love-Killer could believe the Ushiromiya family to be essentially irredeemable, and the sin six years ago was proof of it. However, they weren't going to kill if it meant Battler surviving, so they had to wait for him to return.

In this case, were it true, the Love-Killer would essentially be compassionately ending people's lives because he/she believes they will never be able to find love and family. Battler's sin, the greed of the parents, the screwed-up way their kids are behaving, the crazy servants, it's all something that's made them give up hope.

The only way to foil this killer would be to prove them wrong. Imparting them to solve the epitaph might simply be a question asked by the Love-Killer: Can you come together as a family to save yourselves? Is there any part of you left that's worth saving? This would be about the only way to achieve a completely happy ending under this scenario. The family comes together, proves that they really are a family, demonstrates love, and stays the Love-Killer's hand.

But that's just a motive without any real meat to it. A "why" without a "who" or "how." Though it certainly puts a different spin on Dr. Nanjo as a suspect. What's a good way to make a man bitter about love and family? Watch his best friend's family fall apart, deny his friend a funeral, and have his own grandchild struck by an incurable illness. Kumasawa might also work, though she seemed to have a pretty good family herself. Then again, maybe seeing what a family is would instruct one on what a family is not.
This could also point to a Genji culprit theory, in EP 1 he has a chat with the illusion of Kinzo that is mainly about all the problems the family has.
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Old 2010-01-21, 13:26   Link #1097
LyricalAura
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Hmm, that motive would reconcile the apparent contradiction in purpose between the bomb and the epitaph murders. The murders exert increasing pressure to solve the epitaph while still actually leaving a chance for the survivors to solve it, and the bomb acts as a final deadline if they don't.

EDIT:
Now I'm starting to remember how many scenes there were in Episode 1 where Kumasawa quietly lamented something from the shadows, and the bit where Nanjo wondered if Kinzo meant for the epitaph to bring his family back together. How to get around Kumasawa and Nanjo are not murderers, though?

Last edited by LyricalAura; 2010-01-21 at 13:38.
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Old 2010-01-21, 14:03   Link #1098
trialxerror
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Now I'm starting to remember how many scenes there were in Episode 1 where Kumasawa quietly lamented something from the shadows, and the bit where Nanjo wondered if Kinzo meant for the epitaph to bring his family back together. How to get around Kumasawa and Nanjo are not murderers, though?
Well, I guess it's possible they can be killers but not murderers right? This theory makes it sound like there wasn't any malice involved (depending on how you interpret it).
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Old 2010-01-21, 14:09   Link #1099
Kaiba
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Originally Posted by trialxerror View Post
Well, I guess it's possible they can be killers but not murderers right? This theory makes it sound like there wasn't any malice involved (depending on how you interpret it).
And since when is malice necessary in order to be a murderer?
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Old 2010-01-21, 14:11   Link #1100
trialxerror
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And since when is malice necessary in order to be a murderer?
Like Kaisos Erranon already pointed out: "Mercy Killing"
Edit:
My dictionary says: Murder-kill (a person) unlawfully and with malice.

Mind you, I don't necessarily support this theory but I'm curious of where it can lead.
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