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Old 2010-01-31, 05:09   Link #1181
Kaisos Erranon
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Yeah, no.

Jessitrice doesn't really have a leg to stand on, especially after Ep6, but Shannontrice does at the very least have the "white horse" bit, which given the importance of Battler's past to the story, probably has at least some relevance.

Kyrietrice has nothing other than stuff you've made up or exaggerated. Remember what I said about "wild conjectures"?

And did you forget the bit about Beatrice being in love with Battler? I really don't think Kyrie is so much in love with her son that she had to create a Beatrice persona to contain her feelings.

Note that I don't discount Kyrie as being a culprit (in fact, she's probably the one behind the closed room tricks) but I highly doubt that she's Beatrice.
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Old 2010-01-31, 05:41   Link #1182
ijriims
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
And did you forget the bit about Beatrice being in love with Battler? I really don't think Kyrie is so much in love with her son that she had to create a Beatrice persona to contain her feelings.

Note that I don't discount Kyrie as being a culprit (in fact, she's probably the one behind the closed room tricks) but I highly doubt that she's Beatrice.
Please don't equate the meta-Beatrice, Beatrice who was responsible for the murders on Rokkenjima and sis-Beatrice all together. They were all related but distinct personas.

And from what I have read, it is that initial Meta-Beatrice could not love Battler so she created a new Beatrice hoping that she would love him and he would return her love.

BTW, you have not read EP6 yet, so please don't just rely on other's interpretations of the scenes and used them to rebuke my thoughts. THe contexts and details in EP6 matter much, and neither you nor I have known it all.

I suppose we could have a much more meaningful discussion after the completely translated version is out and both of us have read it.
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Old 2010-01-31, 08:22   Link #1183
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Jessitrice doesn't really have a leg to stand on, especially after Ep6, but Shannontrice does at the very least have the "white horse" bit, which given the importance of Battler's past to the story, probably has at least some relevance.
If someone has the white horse bonus than Jessica. Her online TIPS do have a nice "Prince on the white horse" bit.
Not that I want Jessitrice but I don't think the horse bit is a real argument. Of course a hint but Shannontrice does have some more legs to stand on than this.To be exact the fact that it is stated that Battler had a huge crush on her etc.
I'm in the moment pretty much convinced that Shannontrice is true. While not being the mastermind/culprit of course. (while I think she might have killed someone or maybe more)
Quote:
Please don't equate the meta-Beatrice, Beatrice who was responsible for the murders on Rokkenjima and sis-Beatrice all together. They were all related but distinct personas.

And from what I have read, it is that initial Meta-Beatrice could not love Battler so she created a new Beatrice hoping that she would love him and he would return her love.

BTW, you have not read EP6 yet, so please don't just rely on other's interpretations of the scenes and used them to rebuke my thoughts. THe contexts and details in EP6 matter much, and neither you nor I have known it all.
So...if I get your last sentence right than you don't want us to rebuke your theories with our interpretations of what happened? And will only accept them if you read it yourself after the patch?? Than why are you in the EPisode 6 thread already?

Also the following is not my interpretation and still denies Kyrietrice in any way.
Beatrice has to live on the island.
Before the happening of 4th October 1986 was a Beeatrice. She roamed around the mansion frightening the servants.
ALso whenever Maria visited the island Beatrice payed with her. It is a stated fact that the sibling and their family visited the island not only on the conference but on other occasions (begging for money etc): They did that alone.
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Old 2010-01-31, 08:43   Link #1184
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Originally Posted by Kitsu View Post
So...if I get your last sentence right than you don't want us to rebuke your theories with our interpretations of what happened? And will only accept them if you read it yourself after the patch?? Than why are you in the EPisode 6 thread already?

Also the following is not my interpretation and still denies Kyrietrice in any way.
Beatrice has to live on the island.
Before the happening of 4th October 1986 was a Beeatrice. She roamed around the mansion frightening the servants.
ALso whenever Maria visited the island Beatrice payed with her. It is a stated fact that the sibling and their family visited the island not only on the conference but on other occasions (begging for money etc): They did that alone.
Some people have read untranslated EP6 but some don't, for those people who have read it (like Jan-Poo and me), I can discuss with them in this thread.

Some who have not read EP6 but used what others read and interpret in argumenation, this is not very good if you don't have your own understanding of the topic but rather rely on others.

It is like a man who have never watched a foregin movie but used his friends' comment and understanding to argue with a person on whether the movie is good. THis is quite pointless since maybe after the person watched the movie than none of these argument would occur.

For the point about Beatrice being on Rokkenjima, I have thought about it myself. But first I have to say that just because there were ongoing prank on Rokkenjima meant Beatrice must be residing on Rokkenjima was not a valid argument at all.

Conversely, I would use this argument to counter Shannon as Beatrice since the pranks happened before Shannon came to Rokkenjima, or before six years ago where the Beatrice we knew (meta-Beatrice) were not existent (red texts).

I would speculate that throughout all these years someone was on Rokkenjima trying to locate the 10ton gold, and in the process this person made all the pranks such that others would regard this as Beatrice's doing. It was consistent with the theory that the gold initially belonged to Sumadera family and Kyrie was always trying to recover them throughout all these years (she was not married to Rudolf before six years).

The only one who had been seen fit to own such a large amount of cash (above 100 millions yen, hey she came from another really big family), knowledgeable with Hebrew and Italian(she got all the training for being the leader, of course language is a part of training) was Kyrie. Shannon? I highly doubt it.

But in the end, if you don't buy it. You would just say these are tiny, mundane, insignificant, over-exaggerating details, just like I can do so for the "white horse promise".


I just want to know how many fact pointing to Shannon being Beatrice. In fact, EP6 heavily hinted at Shakanontrice, but I wonder really anyone who was looking for a good work would buy this kind of explanation (when red texts said Shannon died, she didn't really die, she just discard Shannon's personality. In EP3, when both were said to die, she still had Beatrice as the remaining persona).

Come on, do you really think Umineko is just such a stupid and ridiculous detective story? Do you really think that it has no bigger meaning than "12 years old Battler telling Shannon he would come back with a white horse but he did not fulfill his promise so Shannon had to kill all his relatives six years latter", or "George who had planned to kill his family memebers so that he can get a quick cash to build a "happy" family and business latter on"?

A deeper and bigger motive would require a culprit (and Beatrice as well) with more sophistication and real-life experience, in this case only an adult would suffice (like Eva, Rosa, Natsuhi), and therefore I chose Kyrie as Beatrice.

If anyone can give a no-lame explanation for Shannon or Jessica being Beatrice and the motives, then I would immediately switched side to support that person. But until now, what I read was "kill the family for not having the white horse", "DID", "kill the family for the sake of your romantic love".....
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Last edited by ijriims; 2010-01-31 at 08:59.
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Old 2010-01-31, 08:55   Link #1185
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Thanks for reminding me for that.

Go buy Jessica=Beatrice because she shared blonde hair, she had similar way of speaking, she said taking care of your body to Maria just like Beatrice do, suit-Beatrice's dressing is just like Jessica's, she told Battler to believe in culprit as people knowing magic, etc. (isn't these also tiny unimportant details?)

Or buy Shannon-Beatrice because she had the one-winged eagle on her leg like Beatrice, she was the one free to give the letter to Maria, Battler told her he would come back with a white horse six years ago, etc.

I am just telling people that if Kyrie turned out to be Beatrice, don't say Ryukishi07 had not given clues to it. Just like Jessica and Shannon
Well apart from the "fact" that Kyrie is an Ushiromiya-like name, where are these clues?

How about the fact that Ange doesn't recognize Beatrice's writing? Surely she must know her own mother's writing style.

And where the hell Kyrie took all the money from the bank accounts? it's 20+ safes with 100 million yen each which in total make about 10% of the whole ten tons of gold. Whoever made those bank account can't have money as a driving factor, it can only be someone who already has the money to spare and no interest in them. And it is said that the Sumadera do not have much money anymore

Also with Kyrie you need to completely disjoint meta-Beatrice from Beatrice in the real world which imho is a completely wrong reasoning, especially considering that meta-Beatrice can use red text with "I" even when talking about her piece self.

With Shannon as Beatrice you can explain practically all of Beatrice's behaviors, but with Kyrie it just doesn't make any sense. Why is Beatrice so sad everytime Battler doesn't remember his sin? In EP5 you see the same reaction when Battler doesn't remember ever making a promise to her.

I think it's interesting you pointed out only the most minor hints about the Shannontrice theory instead of the most important ones.

Quote:
Come on, do you really think Umineko is just such a stupid and ridiculous detective story? Do you really think that it has no bigger meaning than "12 years old Battler telling Shannon he would come back with a white horse but he did not fulfill his promise so Shannon had to kill all his relatives six years latter"?
Well at least this fits with the "without love it can't be seen". The solution of this mystery must be something related to love, don't you think?
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Old 2010-01-31, 08:57   Link #1186
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Ijriims, I'm afraid that after Ep6 Kyrietrice is virtually impossible.

Beatrice is either Shannon or Jessica.

On the other hand, it's almost equally clear that Beatrice has little to do with the murders, and Kyrie is still very likely to turn out to be the real culprit. I'd say even more likely now that the Beatrice identity and the related snotty love dramas are settled down.

So... why so serious? We are trying to catch a killer here, not some adolescent lovelorn fool.

Who cares about the identity of Beatrice if she's not the murderer?
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Old 2010-01-31, 09:01   Link #1187
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Well I'd say in EP6 there is an heavy hint against Jessica but well...

Anyway I must say that EP6 at the same time made Kyrie definitely suspicious in my eyes, I'm really questioning her mental sanity now.
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Old 2010-01-31, 09:09   Link #1188
ijriims
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Originally Posted by Dr. Akagi View Post
Ijriims, I'm afraid that after Ep6 Kyrietrice is virtually impossible.

Beatrice is either Shannon or Jessica.

On the other hand, it's almost equally clear that Beatrice has little to do with the murders, and Kyrie is still very likely to turn out to be the real culprit. I'd say even more likely now that the Beatrice identity and the related snotty love dramas are settled down.

So... why so serious? We are trying to catch a killer here, not some adolescent lovelorn fool.

Who cares about the identity of Beatrice if she's not the murderer?
I have seen theories about Shannon as Beatrice (the one teaching Maria magic) and she just wrote the first epitaph letter so as to make the Ushiromiya family unite to solve the epitaph, and she did not plan to kill any people from the start.

THis does not explain the bank card and letters-in-the-bottle (all having the same writing style with Maria's master), definitely cannot explain why the bank number on the door in EP3.

The real Beatrice, who was also Maria's master, did plan all these murders and even setup a final trick to kill everyone if she and her accomplice were all dead in the process.

I am stuck in here, if anyone can come up a good explanation Beatrice did not plan to murder anyone while at the same time she sent all the money to deceased's relatives and wrote the letters-in-the-bottle, please tell me.
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Old 2010-01-31, 09:11   Link #1189
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Well I'd say in EP6 ther is an heavy hint against Jessica but well...
I agree with that hint..partly... I wouldn't discard this possibilty yet. While I don't buy it I jsut like leaving all ind of possibilities open.

Quote:
The real Beatrice, who was also Maria's master, did plan all these murders and even setup a final trick to kill everyone if she and her accomplice were all dead in the process.

I am stuck in here, if anyone can come up a good explanation Beatrice did not plan to murder anyone while at the same time she sent all the money to deceased's relatives and wrote the letters-in-the-bottle, please tell me.
She knew the murder would happen
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Old 2010-01-31, 09:14   Link #1190
ijriims
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Well apart from the "fact" that Kyrie is an Ushiromiya-like name, where are these clues?

How about the fact that Ange doesn't recognize Beatrice's writing? Surely she must know her own mother's writing style.

And where the hell Kyrie took all the money from the bank accounts? it's 20+ safes with 100 million yen each which in total make about 10% of the whole ten tons of gold. Whoever made those bank account can't have money as a driving factor, it can only be someone who already has the money to spare and no interest in them. And it is said that the Sumadera do not have much money anymore

Also with Kyrie you need to completely disjoint meta-Beatrice from Beatrice in the real world which imho is a completely wrong reasoning, especially considering that meta-Beatrice can use red text with "I" even when talking about her piece self.

With Shannon as Beatrice you can explain practically all of Beatrice's behaviors, but with Kyrie it just doesn't make any sense. Why is Beatrice so sad everytime Battler doesn't remember his sin? In EP5 you see the same reaction when Battler doesn't remember ever making a promise to her.

I think it's interesting you pointed out only the most minor hints about the Shannontrice theory instead of the most important ones.
Sumadera don't have those money after 12 years (1998). They were probably extremely wealthy and powerful 12 years ago (well, not even Kinzo would hire so many killers around). BTW, how did Kasumi's men imported so many guns onto Rokkenjima, didn't they have to take plane to get to Niijima, what were the custom and security guards doing?

Maybe we would disjoint the Beatrice Shannon made for Battler and the real Beatrice (Maria's master) responsible for the murders. THen both Shannon=Beatrice and Kyrie=Beatrice can coexist
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Old 2010-01-31, 10:43   Link #1191
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
I have seen theories about Shannon as Beatrice (the one teaching Maria magic) and she just wrote the first epitaph letter so as to make the Ushiromiya family unite to solve the epitaph, and she did not plan to kill any people from the start.

THis does not explain the bank card and letters-in-the-bottle (all having the same writing style with Maria's master), definitely cannot explain why the bank number on the door in EP3.
She had the money, either by saving it up or she found the gold somehow, both of which have been hinted at.

The bank number was put there by another person in her group who was still alive by that point in ep3, such as George or Nanjo. Eva and Battler never figured out what it meant because by the time they found any of the people who could have written it they were dead.
Quote:
The real Beatrice, who was also Maria's master, did plan all these murders and even setup a final trick to kill everyone if she and her accomplice were all dead in the process.

I am stuck in here, if anyone can come up a good explanation Beatrice did not plan to murder anyone while at the same time she sent all the money to deceased's relatives and wrote the letters-in-the-bottle, please tell me.
Not "wanting" to murder anyone may be different from not "planning" to murder anyone. She may have been waiting for a sign that the family could be saved, and was willing to call it off. Another killer may not have been so forgiving. In any event, it's possible Battler's failures to remember his sin kept pushing her over the edge. None of that really requires a particular "Beatrice," but neither does it eliminate anyone.

Kyrie's lack of access to the island makes it very difficult to imagine she set up the final event. Being on the island would make that entire incident much easier to prepare and execute. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it is rather unlikely. At the moment I'm leaning less toward it being a contingency and more a "if they can be redeemed, turn the whatever off, otherwise let it go" thing.
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Old 2010-01-31, 12:09   Link #1192
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She had the money, either by saving it up or she found the gold somehow, both of which have been hinted at.

The bank number was put there by another person in her group who was still alive by that point in ep3, such as George or Nanjo. Eva and Battler never figured out what it meant because by the time they found any of the people who could have written it they were dead.
I remember that Shannon said she saved up a few millions yen throughout these 10 years. How could she save up over 100 millions yens as a servant?

Talking about selling those Kinzo's gold, first, the gold had no indication of the origin so it had to be sold through black market, which I wondered Shannon did know these channels (on the other hand, Kyrie probably was well familiar with these shady market).

Second, the flowing of these Kinzo's gold would immediately raise the siblings' attention (particularly Krauss, who had acquired the only gold piece which was shown to the outside) since they were verifying the truthfulness of 10ton gold rumour. So selling these gold ingots were too risky for Shannon.

Thirdly, there is the problem of exporting these gold outside Rokkenjima without raising others' attention.

Hey, and how did Shannon acquire those 20 VIP safe deposits, it is definitely not what a normal person can do. However, I can imagine Kyrie getting all those.
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Old 2010-01-31, 12:22   Link #1193
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Banks probably don't care. You also have to consider the possibility of an intermediary. "Beatrice" does not have to create the bank vaults herself. She just needs the money and someone to set up the accounts for her. If she can't do it herself, there's probably someone in her group who can. We also aren't totally sure all the vaults contained that much money. Nanjo Jr. only checked the safe to which he had access, after all, and Kumasawa's son never bothered.

The gold doesn't have to be sold. It was used as collateral before, after all. If someone reputable had evidence that the gold existed they could potentially get a loan. We also don't know how much the servants are paid. 10 million yen is not very much; about $110,000. There's absolutely no way servants are "paid very well" if they're making $10,000 a year. That's below minimum wage, and not very good even in 1986 money (after inflation it would only be like $200,000 or so).

If Shannon only has a "few million yen," it means she did something else with her money. It just doesn't make any sense that she'd have a hundred grand after ten years of work.

EDIT: As an example. Say the servants were paid $50,000 yearly, or 4.5 million yen. That's very good pay for 1986. If Shannon did nothing with the money but stuff it under a pillow for 10 years, she'd have 45 million yen. That's not "a few million." It's not as much as is probably in the vaults, but it's a lot. If she did anything with it to invest it in some way, who knows? Either way, she has to have more than 10 million yen after that long on the job, or else what we're told about the servants being paid well enough to comfortably move on is baloney. If I worked 3 years at minimum wage I certainly wouldn't have enough savings to go out on my own, which is what most servants do. If I had $150,000 banked, that's another matter entirely.

EDIT EDIT: Also the obvious problem with Kyrie setting up the payoffs is that Rudolf needs money. Why isn't she giving Rudolf some of this stash and solving his financial problem? That would put her branch of the family in firm control because everyone else is broke. She could basically take over the entire family without anyone dying at all.
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Old 2010-01-31, 12:35   Link #1194
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Hmm... clarifying with the money and bank, at EP3 and 4, wasn't the numbers from the door similar to the mailed ones to Kumasawa's and Nanjo's family? Anyways, was there any significance?

We know that the culprit must of mailed it, maybe for future reference, but I'm not sure where I'm going with this o-o
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Old 2010-01-31, 12:43   Link #1195
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Also if Shkannon deems true than she would get two wages the month making it possible, I guess (though she would have that money for onyl three years but I guess that still would be enogh) . Maybe Shkannon doesn't even has to apply but Kanon jsut gives her his money because they work together or something.

And I agree with the last edit. Kyrie is seemingly one of the smartest characters if she had the means to do it like that she would.
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Old 2010-01-31, 12:51   Link #1196
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One thought...

Are all servants paid well? Kumasawa is Virgilia's vessel. Virgilia was once "Beatrice." Kumasawa has been working there for decades. Some or all of the money could be hers. Her family seems to live decently, of course, but most of them are employed on their own and none seem to be living richly.
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Old 2010-01-31, 13:01   Link #1197
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The gold doesn't have to be sold. It was used as collateral before, after all. If someone reputable had evidence that the gold existed they could potentially get a loan. We also don't know how much the servants are paid. 10 million yen is not very much; about $110,000. There's absolutely no way servants are "paid very well" if they're making $10,000 a year. That's below minimum wage, and not very good even in 1986 money (after inflation it would only be like $200,000 or so).

If Shannon only has a "few million yen," it means she did something else with her money. It just doesn't make any sense that she'd have a hundred grand after ten years of work.

EDIT: As an example. Say the servants were paid $50,000 yearly, or 4.5 million yen. That's very good pay for 1986. If Shannon did nothing with the money but stuff it under a pillow for 10 years, she'd have 45 million yen. That's not "a few million." It's not as much as is probably in the vaults, but it's a lot. If she did anything with it to invest it in some way, who knows? Either way, she has to have more than 10 million yen after that long on the job, or else what we're told about the servants being paid well enough to comfortably move on is baloney. If I worked 3 years at minimum wage I certainly wouldn't have enough savings to go out on my own, which is what most servants do. If I had $150,000 banked, that's another matter entirely.

EDIT EDIT: Also the obvious problem with Kyrie setting up the payoffs is that Rudolf needs money. Why isn't she giving Rudolf some of this stash and solving his financial problem? That would put her branch of the family in firm control because everyone else is broke. She could basically take over the entire family without anyone dying at all.
I wonder if Ryukishi07 did check the exchange rate in 1980s and inflation rate (at the time of 1986, the exchange rate between Yen and US dollar is extremely low, about 280 Yen to 1 dollar), but it is qutie meaningless as you should check the purchasing power for that time rather than a mere number.

Maybe in Ryukishi07's mind, 110000 was already quite a lot of money.

The scene was between George and Shannon, I wonder if that amount was meagerly small (as proven by Renall), then George would respond instantly about how Krauss's family was paying so little to Shannon and other servants, and contrary to what Shannon said she did not spend much. I would rather say Ryukishi07 just omitted a zero. It should be several 10 million yens rather than a few million yens.


About Kyrie not giving Rudolf money, why did she have to do so if she knew Rudolf was probably going to die on Rokkenjima , or he and his sibling would find the 10tons gold?

Now I wonder if Genji also give all his saving throughout these years to Beatrice to pool up a "fund"
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Old 2010-01-31, 13:09   Link #1198
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
For the point about Beatrice being on Rokkenjima, I have thought about it myself. But first I have to say that just because there were ongoing prank on Rokkenjima meant Beatrice must be residing on Rokkenjima was not a valid argument at all.

Conversely, I would use this argument to counter Shannon as Beatrice since the pranks happened before Shannon came to Rokkenjima, or before six years ago where the Beatrice we knew (meta-Beatrice) were not existent (red texts).
Pranks happened on the island at a time when only Genji and Gohda were present. If you want to pin that on Kyrie, you have to present some kind of clue that she was present.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims
But in the end, if you don't buy it. You would just say these are tiny, mundane, insignificant, over-exaggerating details, just like I can do so for the "white horse promise".

I just want to know how many fact pointing to Shannon being Beatrice. In fact, EP6 heavily hinted at Shakanontrice, but I wonder really anyone who was looking for a good work would buy this kind of explanation (when red texts said Shannon died, she didn't really die, she just discard Shannon's personality. In EP3, when both were said to die, she still had Beatrice as the remaining persona).

Come on, do you really think Umineko is just such a stupid and ridiculous detective story? Do you really think that it has no bigger meaning than "12 years old Battler telling Shannon he would come back with a white horse but he did not fulfill his promise so Shannon had to kill all his relatives six years latter", or "George who had planned to kill his family memebers so that he can get a quick cash to build a "happy" family and business latter on"?
Did you miss the part of the story where Beatrice appears to have been violently raped by Kinzo repeatedly over a long period of time? No one's claiming that Shannon killed everyone just because she had a crush on Battler. They're claiming she killed everyone because in her eyes, Battler effectively promised to save her from Kinzo and then didn't. He's indirectly responsible for her suffering horribly for years.

You can claim that it was all in white text and we should ignore it. But that would be in direct opposition to the intent of the story at this point, wouldn't it?
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Old 2010-01-31, 13:13   Link #1199
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You can claim that it was all in white text and we should ignore it. But that would be in direct opposition to the intent of the story at this point, wouldn't it?

Well in the end a lot of people, no everyone just dismiss whole scenes as complete lies. For example they deny that Shannon ever loved George or that Jessica's love for Kanon is also just a lie that Kyrie is happy with Rudolph, thatshe loves ange etc. A lot of stuff is just discared in most theories.
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Old 2010-01-31, 13:22   Link #1200
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Did you miss the part of the story where Beatrice appears to have been violently raped by Kinzo repeatedly over a long period of time? No one's claiming that Shannon killed everyone just because she had a crush on Battler. They're claiming she killed everyone because in her eyes, Battler effectively promised to save her from Kinzo and then didn't. He's indirectly responsible for her suffering horribly for years.

You can claim that it was all in white text and we should ignore it. But that would be in direct opposition to the intent of the story at this point, wouldn't it?
If I read that part correctly, the so-called "rape" part was from Beatrice to urge Battler to do so. In fact, from the context, she probably enjoyed it.

Based on what we know between 1967 Beatrice and Kinzo, we knew that Kinzo did not throw himself on 1967 Beatrice even though she definitely look like her initial lover, so where you can find Kinzo raping Shannon?? Kinzo was a gentleman to 1967 Beatrice.

And did George know that? Probably when Shannon and George were in love with each other than SHannon would confide these kind of raping to George. Or she should have told Kanon and then Kanon would go instantly to murder Kinzo.

Waiting for Battler to save her? Probably a better task to be done by George and Kanon. And now George was proposing to her to save her from this hell, so why kill all the family members. For revenge??



The so-called prank is only a part of the legend of the golden witch, didn't you remember Shannon telling the tale that a old servant who defame Beatrice then she (or he) got a serious injury? THe legend of the golden witch and all the mysteries dated back to a lot earlier than the timeShannon coming to Rokkenjima (she also said she knew all the unexplainable events from older servants). And EP6 was saying that a distinct Beatrice was responsible for all of these, and this Beatrice was another Beatrice's big sister.
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