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Old 2010-02-03, 05:39   Link #1281
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
And of course Battler, who has the power to say in red the location of every people, doesn't notice that Kanon is free to help him

You need to consider that Battler knows that there are only 17 people in total, and he knows the location of every people. So if Kanon left the room as Erika and then the Erika ball passed on someone else Battler would know that Kanon is free
The thing is, I don't think "having the power to say Kanon's location in red" necessarily translates to "knowing Kanon's exact location". Instead, there was a range of places that Battler thought Kanon "could be" for the purposes of his story, and he was mistaken about the size of that range.

It was shown in this episode is that red text doesn't necessarily reflect a pre-existing truth, but can establish a truth at the moment it's spoken. That's why when Erika first arrived at the guest room, he had the option of saying Battler is on the bed or Battler is not on the bed. Actually, if it were only possible to state pre-existing truths in red, then logic errors wouldn't even exist.

The game master can have an idea about how he wants to tell the story beforehand, but he's free to change it at any time within the bounds of the witch's darkness, the parts of the game board that haven't been specified. Based on how Battler was required to think up a solution to his logic error himself, it also seems that it's up to the game master to keep track of what the witch's darkness will allow, and that its extent is based entirely on the tricks that he can come up with.

So that means first of all that Kanon doesn't have a fixed location until Battler outright specifies it in red (we already saw that the locations of the five first twilight victims were unspecified when Battler tried to use them to rescue himself). Second, before Battler fixes that location, it's up to him to figure out what locations are possible. At the time of the logic error, he thought Kanon was sealed inside the cousins' room, so he didn't consider a rescue by him to be a possibility.
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Old 2010-02-03, 05:52   Link #1282
Jan-Poo
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That's exactly what I think, but that works with the shkannon theory not with the one you mentioned, because if the "Erika" who sealed the rooms was Kanon then his position wasn't a cat box anymore, he was definitely outside the rooms and there was no way to change it back.

Unless you claim that Battler is in direct control of the Erika ball and he can switch it as he pleases, but that's to fucked up to consider for me since we know that Erika's actions are totally outside Battler's supervision.
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Old 2010-02-03, 06:13   Link #1283
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
That's exactly what I think, but that works with the shkannon theory not with the one you mentioned, because if the "Erika" who sealed the rooms was Kanon then his position wasn't a cat box anymore, he was definitely outside the rooms and there was no way to change it back.

Unless you claim that Battler is in direct control of the Erika ball and he can switch it as he pleases, but that's to fucked up to consider for me since we know that Erika's actions are totally outside Battler's supervision.
But the "Erika" who sealed the room wasn't necessarily Kanon up until the moment Beato resolved the logic error; she could have been any other person from that room. Battler didn't know about Erika's true nature at that time anyway, so he couldn't factor that information into his view of the board.

Another, possibly more consistent way to interpret it is to say that Erika "could possibly have been" a real person all the way up until the time of the logic error. Then Beato found a way to reinterpret both Episode 5 and Episode 6 that essentially changed Erika from a human piece to a fantasy piece without causing a contradiction.
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Old 2010-02-03, 11:54   Link #1284
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Another, possibly more consistent way to interpret it is to say that Erika "could possibly have been" a real person all the way up until the time of the logic error. Then Beato found a way to reinterpret both Episode 5 and Episode 6 that essentially changed Erika from a human piece to a fantasy piece without causing a contradiction.
You're suggesting Beatrice resolved the logic error by erasing Erika from the story?

Damn, I think I may have underestimated ep6 Beato.
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Old 2010-02-03, 15:01   Link #1285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
You're suggesting Beatrice resolved the logic error by erasing Erika from the story?

Damn, I think I may have underestimated ep6 Beato.
Hey, if she's got the gameboard seat back (or at least a puppet who'll listen to her/Batora) after she's had it stolen and there was no red created preventing her actions, she can do whatever the hell she wants with it (well this technically refers to her "mother" but they kind of merged anyways). And if I were her I wouldn't blame her for starting by knocking off the extra piece. It's pretty badass, no doubt .

...hoo, boy, this all seems like a lot to swallow, but then again Erika has always felt like a tacky add-on and this developing theory kind of satisfies that annoying feeling. I'll still be surprised if it's true, but pleasantly so. Sh/kanon have backstory on the island. Erika doesn't have any place on it.
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Old 2010-02-03, 19:15   Link #1286
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Hmm... just for laughs, I decided to make Shannon's Troll-Face since many are suspecting the culprit is most likely Shannon/Jessica.

Here you go; edited off Beato's face:
Spoiler for Shannon's Troll Face!:
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Old 2010-02-03, 20:26   Link #1287
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
You're suggesting Beatrice resolved the logic error by erasing Erika from the story?

Damn, I think I may have underestimated ep6 Beato.
Well, it may not be the same Beato, but considering how much of a bitch Erika was to Beato in the previous game, I say it would be completely justified. Then again, I loathe Erika, so anything bad that happens to her is my enjoyment.
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Old 2010-02-04, 04:59   Link #1288
Jan-Poo
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But Beatrice shouldn't even have any glimpse of GM authority. Did you forget the ura party of EP5? Why the siesta couldn't attack Battler at all? Because of Battler's IFF that identified him as the GM. However the siesta in EP6 do not seem to have that problem with Beatrice ergo Beatrice is NOT the gamemaster and the only thing she did was using her own piece.

he...
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Old 2010-02-04, 05:27   Link #1289
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But Beatrice shouldn't even have any glimpse of GM authority. Did you forget the ura party of EP5? Why the siesta couldn't attack Battler at all? Because of Battler's IFF that identified him as the GM. However the siesta in EP6 do not seem to have that problem with Beatrice ergo Beatrice is NOT the gamemaster and the only thing she did was using her own piece.
I thought the critical element for being attackable was whether the person was the "lord of the territory" or not. Beato gave Battler her ring before she died in Episode 5, so he was designated the lord and couldn't be attacked. In Episode 6, that ring was in Erika's possession, so Beato was fair game.

In any case, Beato had at least enough control over the board to refine Battler's guest room. For instance, she was able to place restrictions on all of the people in the neighboring room (at the time Battler was rescued, the only one who entered the guest room was Kanon).
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Old 2010-02-04, 20:06   Link #1290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I thought the critical element for being attackable was whether the person was the "lord of the territory" or not. Beato gave Battler her ring before she died in Episode 5, so he was designated the lord and couldn't be attacked. In Episode 6, that ring was in Erika's possession, so Beato was fair game.

In any case, Beato had at least enough control over the board to refine Battler's guest room. For instance, she was able to place restrictions on all of the people in the neighboring room (at the time Battler was rescued, the only one who entered the guest room was Kanon).
Alright, for a new spin on perspective, I got a few questions and speculations:

By the end of EP5, Battler has realized the truth. Based on the red truths, we absolutely know Natsushi is not the culprit.

In EP6, we experience the new Demons, which may represent Shannon and Kanon. Does this mean Shannon and Kanon are duel culprits that manipulated their loved ones to kill, using the epitaph and witch rumor as a hidden item?

Not only that, at EP1, Natsushi stated that she has sensed "Beatrice's" prescence since the very start, probably refering to Shannon, right before her death.

Also, isn't it possible that Shannon pushed that servant off the stairs a while back? I'm really focusing on Shannon as the culprit right now . . .

Spoiler for MY TrollShannon:
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Old 2010-02-05, 03:10   Link #1291
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Am I the only one who thinks Battler is Kinzo?
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Old 2010-02-05, 03:33   Link #1292
LyricalAura
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Since there were some requests, here's my colored text list for Episode 6. There were a lot of repetition requests and definition checks this time around, so I've included those along with the responses.

Spoiler for Colored text for Episode 6:

Last edited by LyricalAura; 2010-02-07 at 04:11. Reason: Fixed an ambiguity in the blue truth prohibition
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Old 2010-02-05, 04:06   Link #1293
Jan-Poo
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thanx LyricalAura as usual your red text translations are very useful and well done.
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Old 2010-02-05, 06:08   Link #1294
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I second that. The man is as great as his avatar,

Spoiler for Off-topic:
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Dlanor A. Knox: Great Equalizer is the Death!
Erika Furudo: Take that, dead people!

Death and its implications as viewed by the Umineko No Naku Koro Ni characters.

Last edited by Dr. Akagi; 2010-02-05 at 06:24.
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Old 2010-02-05, 12:39   Link #1295
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Just finished reading the red and blue. Please don't tell me we need a proper definition of 'killed' and murder now...

And what the hell was Erika doing in this anyway? Was she even TRYING to solve the mystery or was her plan simply to trap Battler? Battler prepared a game fairly and she goes and do this. Detective my ass...
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Old 2010-02-05, 13:11   Link #1296
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I'm quite surprised - that's a pretty small list of red, from my perspective. Is that all of it, and how long is Episode 6 anyways?
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Old 2010-02-05, 13:18   Link #1297
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Quote:
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I'm quite surprised - that's a pretty small list of red, from my perspective. Is that all of it, and how long is Episode 6 anyways?
That's a false impression because there were toncrap of check requests inbetween and the like. But yes, that's pretty much all of the red and blue in Episode 6.

Episode 6 is longer than 5 (and subsequently, 1, 2 and 3), but still shorter than 4.
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Old 2010-02-05, 13:24   Link #1298
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Thank you for list LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Megaolix View Post
Just finished reading the red and blue. Please don't tell me we need a proper definition of 'killed' and murder now...
Unfortunately, I don't think there is any way around being 'killed'.
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Old 2010-02-05, 13:28   Link #1299
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Thank you for list LyricalAura

Unfortunately, I don't think there is any way around being 'killed'.
And once for all, I would like to point out that "corpse" is the same.
The word doesn't have any kind of "possible interpretation".

I was surprised that some people claim on various forums that "the body "died" but the persona is still alive, then the body got better" (favored argument in order to explain Jessica's death in Episode 2)... using Erika's fallacious reasoning that the victims were put in coma because of insulin.

Corpse is basically a body without life, and unless science managed to get the holy grail or whatsoever, there is no way to restore life to a dead body.
And no, someone afflicted by a cardiac arrest is -not- considered dead, until all reanimation procedures (CPR etc) were ineffective. It is only after that point that medical team declare one's death, at that specific time.
Therefore, no one "becomes dead, then alive afterwards" at all. And again, red text doesn't care about "legal stuff" whatsoever. Corpse means: the said character is dead (or it would be the worst cop out ever).

And one must be an utter moron to use insulin to put themselves in a coma: that's the best way to turn into a vegetable.
Although I was impressed that Erika (and Ryukishi) would know that far, I was kinda amused how it was ludicrous in the context.
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Old 2010-02-05, 15:52   Link #1300
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what is with all these shkanon hints aaaah please dont let it be true ;-; RYUKISHI YOU TROLL</3
the whole guest room and thing with Battler and Kanon seem kind of confusing to me. D: im excited for when the patch for ep 6 comes out, though. Ep 4 certainly is the longest of course, but if ep 6 is longer than 5 and the others, yay<3
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