AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-02-07, 16:10   Link #1421
ameskitty
Kupo
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sleeping
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
The biggest problem is that it goes against the personality of Battler six years ago that was expressed in EP3, who was into saying ridiculous heroic crap, probably less so "let me rub your tits." While it's certainly possible that Battler was more precocious than I thought previously, it's hard for me to imagine Battler talking like that to a girl at age twelve regardless.

That means, the person he talked to six years ago was probably either a boy, or it didn't happen six years ago. What that means, I don't really have a clue.
I agree, it seems a little off from that perspective. Maybe he was talking to George?

You could also say that at that age, you don't really know your "type". You know what type of boys/girls you're friends with, but that won't always determine what type of people you'll actually like in "that way". Plus it's very possible to have a crush on (or maybe fall in love with) somebody that you don't think is your "type", and conversely also to be good friends with somebody of your "type" but not be in love with them, no matter what your age.
__________________

Avatar adapted from Yoshitaka Amano art

"There is no such thing as a sexy George." - Rhiannon, Easy A
ameskitty is offline  
Old 2010-02-07, 17:03   Link #1422
Ssol
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by theacefrehley View Post
My take on the translation

Spoiler:


Ah, thank you. I guess I was fairly accurate with the translation except for a few parts which I completely fucked up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_rogue View Post
I agree, it seems a little off from that perspective. Maybe he was talking to George?
I know that Kanon didn't start working there until 3 years before 1986 but could Battler have met with Kanon somehow six years ago?
__________________
[...]
Ssol is offline  
Old 2010-02-07, 18:09   Link #1423
Smeckledorf
Intellectual Rapist
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
Dante goes off on his crusade and returns only to find a dead Beatrice, one he has lied to and he cannot remember his transgressions, supposedly. The relations between Dante's Inferno and Umineko are beyond astonishing, Battler even wears the colors of the Crusade.
I would believe the heroic crap is what we would think a Knight would say and such I would believe the creator of Beatrice is a girl. Even if Shkanon is true, Shanon could just be a really flat chested girl. Which makes sense if Beatrice is everything she is not that Battler likes.

Ssol - On your Asumu theory, I didn't read through it all because it was long as shit but would you explain the part to me where Asumu does not count towards the person limit. Also, Culprit: a person or other agent guilty of or responsible for an offense or fault. If you arranged for someone to be kill then you are still a culprit. Asumu is mentioned in the beginning of the story but is never seen.

Also, no one is ignoring that Rudolph is a cheat. If I recall correctly, Asumu and Kyrie were both due to give birth on the same day? That's just accepting who Rudolph is. Finally, your number/math-play is cool and everything but it is a very well known fact that you can manipulate any numbers in math to get an answer like that. I would be willing to bet that 07151129 are the exact numbers meant to figure out the meaning of something. Furthermore, I don't know if this would be a mere coincidence but the safety deposit that number was connected to was worth millions and there were more than one of those. Is there a reason Asumu would have millions? I don't see your theory as impossible but it is more holy than the Pope.

My number play:
Let's go to the last part first.
1+2+9=3 & 9 = 3/9 = my birthday.
07 is obviously refers to Ryukishi.
and 151... this cannot be more obvious, the answer is Mew the 151st pokemon.
So, Ryukishi has figured out that I have a legitimate Mew in my Pokemon Blue Version.
Well played Ryukishi.

Last edited by Smeckledorf; 2010-02-07 at 18:34.
Smeckledorf is offline  
Old 2010-02-07, 18:49   Link #1424
Ssol
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
This is the wrong thread to discuss that theory, I'll answer in the speculations thread.

The response is now posted HERE. Please read the theory before posting useless nonsense.

I don't think the theory is perfect but it's clear that your intent was to mock something you did not even try to understand.
__________________
[...]

Last edited by Ssol; 2010-02-07 at 19:12.
Ssol is offline  
Old 2010-02-07, 19:00   Link #1425
Smeckledorf
Intellectual Rapist
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
This is the wrong thread to discuss that theory, I'll answer in the speculations thread.
Everything about Umineko is speculation and interpretation.
Smeckledorf is offline  
Old 2010-02-08, 13:45   Link #1426
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Disguising oneself is not forbidden by any version of Knox, whether ryukishi's version or Knox's original. If someone on the island is dressing up as Beatrice or as a demon or as a frog with an AK-47, that's all perfectly fine.

Disguising oneself as someone else (or having a twin/double) is. Granted, it isn't mentioned in ryukishi's version, but if he with a straight face introduces Knox rules and then tweaks one so he can pull off a trick explicitly forbidden by the very genre commentary he's a laughingstock. Shkanon is totally against the spirit of the genre. I'm not saying it hasn't been done (c.f. various things I wouldn't namedrop to avoid spoiling people on unrelated stuff). It's even been done in a manner that makes people think it was done extremely well. Any idea works if it's done right. "Kinzo is dead" is sssssort of against various genre conventions, but it was done well, and it made the story better.

I'm not saying you can't break some guy's rules (after all, who the hell is that guy to say what works in fiction?), but you have to do it well. I have seen no explanation by a Shkanon advocate as to why this theory has any literary credibility whatsoever. And it doesn't really enhance the story the way "Kinzo is dead" did. In fact, it makes the story quite a bit more amateurish in my eyes. Given what I've seen leading up to Chiru, I can't believe that the author is actually that much of an amateur.

So there's my twisted logic: An amateurish writer would use amateurish writing tricks! An expert writer would not use those tricks, or he would use them to mislead or to demonstrate that he's good enough to make it work! If I believe ryukishi is not an amateurish writer, his reason for hinting at such a thing is either to mislead me or execute a "forbidden" genre convention in a novel way. Shkanon is not yet demonstrated to be novel, therefore it must be a trick!
Your point is quite clear, however mind that this kind of thing is not denied by any knox rule and therefore cannot be compared with the hinamizawa syndrome which is clearly forbidden.

And it goes without saying that this story is a lot different for any canonical mystery story in that it can show you scenes that are not real at all even without any previous hint (Natsuhi talking to Kinzo in EP1).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsu View Post
Well since I first read the part the_rouge translatedI thought that the woman he describes he dislikes sounds pretty much like Shannon and the man that he isn't like George. While I find one thing just strange. This is supposed to be the Battler from which time? If it were the Battler form now it would be way to late but if it was the Battler from six years ago than I feel like something is messed up here.
Battler stated that he had a crush on Shnanon back then, right? Then why would be his type so different?
Also it was hinted that Shannon was acting different six years ago, not so reserved so why would she need a different personality?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding some things
I can see three possible explanations...

1) Battler's crush on Shannon wasn't a serious thing. Maybe it happened in 1979 and then he totally forgot it by 1980.
2) Battler's lied to Shannon because he didn't want to out himself.
3) He didn't know he was talking to Shannon. Shannon is Kinzo's furniture and "furniture" so far has been a way to name imaginary being that do not exist. If Shannon is furniture then she doesn't exist as well, she's just a fake personality. During that cutscene she was talking to Battler as her true self.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
The wider context of the line made it clear (to me, anyway) that the narrator was a 3rd-person limited perspective attached to Battler, rather than a purely external narrator.
I understand that you see it that way, but imho it isn't really confirming that, after all that "nara" and "darou" make it clear that the sentence is merely speculative. So this is my answer to your question: Battler would have never said that Kanon was in that room.



Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
To the best of my knowledge, the prior statements about the number of people on the island were:
この六軒島に19人以上の人間は存在しない!
この島には19人以上の人間はいない。
妾はこれまで、この島には19人以上の人間は存在しないと宣言してきた。それを、金蔵の分、1人減らす!!  この島には18人以上の人間は存在しない!! 以上とはつまり18人目を含めるぞ。つまり、18人目のX は存在しないッ!!


Look at the terminology used. 存在しない、いない、存在しない、存在しない、存在しない。 いる is a verb that applies only to living things, and 存在 also excludes the dead, as we saw with Kinzo does not exist and Beato's ability to lower the limit after Battler discovered his death. However, no one would conclude that Kinzo is not a human, right?

This "living person" limit has never been referred to as 人数, the term Lambda used. Therefore, I'll make the following claim. What Lambda increased by one was the "number of humans" on the island. She did not state whether these humans were alive or dead. The "one" who was added could have been a human corpse! In that case, although the "number of humans" increased by one, the "number of living people" remained exactly the same.

This is consistent with Lambda's statement that Erika did not exist in any of the previous games. If she didn't exist, that is, wasn't alive within the bounds of the game board during the previous games, then altering her fate should have been impossible for Bernkastel. The only thing Bern would have been able to do is alter where Erika's corpse randomly washed up.

This is also consistent with the apparently paradoxical red statements at the end of Episode 6. Erika is the "eighteenth human" on the island, but even after welcoming her corpse, there are still only "seventeen living people."

And of course, tricking a person who apparently committed suicide into thinking they "miraculously survived" is consistent with Bernkastel's behavior in the case of Ange.
Good. Then if Erika is an existing human body in the island, how do you explain this Erika ball thing? In other words how does that happen that a human other than Erika herself is suddenly assuming the name of Erika?
I present these red texts:

Before the family conference, Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa left the mansion and moved to the guesthouse.
From 1:00 AM to 3:00 AM, Erika, Nanjo, and Gohda spent their time in the lounge on the first floor of the guesthouse.
It was impossible to reach the second floor of the guesthouse without passing through the lounge, and impossible to reach it at all without Erika, who was in the lounge, knowing about it.
Eva's seal was of the same type as <Miss> Erika's. That is because this method of sealing was one that <Miss> Erika and Eva conceived of together after DINNER.
As the detective, <Miss> Erika sealed all ENTRANCES.

I don't think I need to add more to prove that this Erika must be a living being. Surely a dead body wouldn't travel around that much and he couldn't conceive or seal anything.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2010-02-08, 14:32   Link #1427
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Names can be titles. Battler said as much and Beatrice never countered it save in very specific instances.

It is never stated whether a name can be taken by someone without their awareness of it. Obviously if someone is actively calling himself Kanon, he is "claiming" the name, but what if the name is "given" to him by the Game Master's construction of events?

Example: Say that in some game, Kinzo appeared and killed a bunch of people. It was later revealed that it was Rudolf who did all the things Kinzo did in that game. If we were analyzing it, we'd say "Rudolf is 'Kinzo.'" Of course, Rudolf isn't really Kinzo, and he never once pretended he was. But the GM sort of made him "Kinzo" for the story.

By that reasoning, "Erika" would be "the person depicted as Erika who did all the things that Erika did." However I don't believe in an "Erika ball" that can be passed around like some people apparently do because in ep6 it says only "the person [herself]" can claim Erika's name. That I think would restrict a nonexistent "Erika's" actions to a single person.

...Battler? If Erika never exists, then either Battler is alone when he solves the epitaph or someone is with him. Yet no one suggests the other person should be the family head. This would seem to restrict a nonexistent "Erika" title to Battler, a servant, or Dr. Nanjo.

Last edited by Renall; 2010-02-08 at 14:47.
Renall is offline  
Old 2010-02-08, 15:31   Link #1428
Isekaijin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Yeah, Pretty sure Erika is Eva or Kyrie here. Or maybe both.
Isekaijin is offline  
Old 2010-02-08, 15:49   Link #1429
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isekaijin View Post
Yeah, Pretty sure Erika is Eva or Kyrie here. Or maybe both.
If Eva solved the epitaph along with Battler, there is no way she would agree readily to making him the family head. The text about the seals also suggests that Eva's seals were identical to Erika's, which insinuates that "Erika" can't be Eva, because the people who made the seals were "Erika and Eva." It wouldn't make a lot of sense to refer to the same person twice, even if Eva did seem to come up with the idea for the seals.

Kyrie, I don't know. In that case, passing the headship to Battler would make sense as she's not a member of the family by blood but Battler is.
Renall is offline  
Old 2010-02-08, 15:57   Link #1430
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
...Battler? If Erika never exists, then either Battler is alone when he solves the epitaph or someone is with him. Yet no one suggests the other person should be the family head. This would seem to restrict a nonexistent "Erika" title to Battler, a servant, or Dr. Nanjo.
If "Erika" is Battler, that makes things pretty damn interesting.
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline  
Old 2010-02-08, 16:56   Link #1431
LyricalAura
Dea ex Kakera
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I understand that you see it that way, but imho it isn't really confirming that, after all that "nara" and "darou" make it clear that the sentence is merely speculative. So this is my answer to your question: Battler would have never said that Kanon was in that room.
I think this is just a difference of interpretation on our part. Since neither of us are witches, I suppose we'll have to call it a draw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo
Good. Then if Erika is an existing human body in the island, how do you explain this Erika ball thing? In other words how does that happen that a human other than Erika herself is suddenly assuming the name of Erika?
I present these red texts:

Before the family conference, Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa left the mansion and moved to the guesthouse.
From 1:00 AM to 3:00 AM, Erika, Nanjo, and Gohda spent their time in the lounge on the first floor of the guesthouse.
It was impossible to reach the second floor of the guesthouse without passing through the lounge, and impossible to reach it at all without Erika, who was in the lounge, knowing about it.
Eva's seal was of the same type as <Miss> Erika's. That is because this method of sealing was one that <Miss> Erika and Eva conceived of together after DINNER.
As the detective, <Miss> Erika sealed all ENTRANCES.

I don't think I need to add more to prove that this Erika must be a living being. Surely a dead body wouldn't travel around that much and he couldn't conceive or seal anything.
<Good>. I present the following red texts:

I am the Golden Witch Beatrice. And I opened this game in order to fight with Ushiromiya Kinzo's grandson, Ushiromiya Battler.
Ushiromiya Battler's mother is Ushiromiya Asumu.
My name is Ushiromiya Battler.
You [Battler] are not Ushiromiya Asumu's son.
The envelope which I [Beatrice] gave to Maria, and the one Rosa opened are the same envelope!!
You [Battler] were in the cousins' room and confirmed the presence of the bodies, which could not be misidentified…!


Based on that evidence, the following things have been demonstrated:
- A name may refer to multiple people.
- A name may refer to both a piece and a meta character.
- A piece's actions may be attributed to the player of the piece.


Have you ever played a video game, say, Super Mario, and said something like "I got killed by a Goomba"? I propose that the name "Erika" refers both to Piece Erika, who is dead at the start of all games, and Meta Erika, who appears in the meta world. Meta Erika had control over a detective piece in Episode 5 and a culprit piece in Episode 6. Therefore, it is allowed for actions taken by those pieces to be attributed to Erika as their player. This is not in violation of the red that all names belong only to the actual people, because Meta Erika's name is legitimately "Erika".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall
By that reasoning, "Erika" would be "the person depicted as Erika who did all the things that Erika did." However I don't believe in an "Erika ball" that can be passed around like some people apparently do because in ep6 it says only "the person [herself]" can claim Erika's name. That I think would restrict a nonexistent "Erika's" actions to a single person.

...Battler? If Erika never exists, then either Battler is alone when he solves the epitaph or someone is with him. Yet no one suggests the other person should be the family head. This would seem to restrict a nonexistent "Erika" title to Battler, a servant, or Dr. Nanjo.
Since Erika and Nanjo spent time discussing mysteries with each other, and we know that Beato is a huge mystery buff, I could very easily see Erika's piece in Episode 5 being Shannontrice. She could verify Battler's epitaph reasoning by virtue of having already solved the epitaph, she could hand him the headship ring in person, and she'd have no reason to challenge him for the gold since she was the one who told everyone to look for it in the first place.
LyricalAura is offline  
Old 2010-02-08, 17:10   Link #1432
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Before the family conference, Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa left the mansion and moved to the guesthouse.

"Erika" probably would therefore not be George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, or Kumasawa.

Of those who remain, only Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji were in the second floor corridor, while all others were in the dining hall.

"Erika" would not be Krauss, Natsuhi, or Genji.

Note that "all others" does not say who is in the dining hall. By process of elimination we are led to believe that Battler, Rudolf, Kyrie, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rosa, Shannon, and Kanon are in the dining hall. If one of them is "Erika," that is not true.

At 24:00, except for Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji in the second floor corridor and all of the people in the dining hall, no humans existed inside the mansion.

Again, no mention of this.

Not a single person in the dining hall...no, there's a simpler way to say it. Among all those inside the mansion at 24:00, not a single person placed that letter in the corridor.

Someone who was shown "in the dining hall" was "Erika" and was not in the mansion at 24:00. They placed the letter, or else came back with it later.

In addition to Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji, none of those in the dining hall made the knock.

"Erika" was not in the dining hall.

From 1:00 AM to 3:00 AM, Erika, Nanjo, and Gohda spent their time in the lounge on the first floor of the guesthouse.

Therefore, during their entire meeting in the lounge, only Rosa went up to the second floor!

Both your seal and your red truth are perfect. Nanjo had the alibi of being with Erika until 3:00 AM. And he didn't leave his room after 3:00 AM until morning.


Erika was with Nanjo the whole time until 3:00 AM. Also, Rosa is probably not "Erika."

"Erika" was with someone else. Gohda and Nanjo would have confirmed that this person was with them, but Lambda altered the story so they were with Erika instead of "Erika," and placed whoever "Erika" is in the dining room where they were not present.

Eva's seal was of the same type as <Miss> Erika's. That is because this method of sealing was one that <Miss> Erika and Eva conceived of together after DINNER.

Eva is not "Erika," but Eva worked together with "Erika."

Furudo Erika is the detective in this game, not me!!

Whoever is "Erika" is the detective, and Battler is not. Alternately, Meta-Erika is the detective and no one else is. This would suggest Battler isn't "Erika" either though.

So who is left?

Rudolf, Kyrie, Hideyoshi, Shannon, and Kanon

EDIT: I just blew my own damn mind.

Point:
The rescuer is defined as the person who reset the chain lock after Battler unset it. Let us set aside the question of whether the rescue was intentional.
At the time Battler was rescued, the only one who entered the guest room was Kanon.
The one who helped Battler escape was unmistakably Kanon himself.
At that time, I immediately closed the door and reset the chain lock, sealing the room.
Erika "sealed" the room by connecting the sections of the severed chain using her duct tape. In short, she used the seals to repair the chain, and used that to make a closed room again from the inside.

Counterpoint:
I'll acknowledge it. You, Battler, and Kanon add up to three people.
Of course. Three people, that is, three bodies, went in and out of the room. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. I already stated with the red truth that all names refer only to the actual people. Therefore, the names "Erika", "Battler", and "Kanon" refer only to the actual people.

EDIT EDIT: If "all other people" doesn't include Erika, who sealed them in the rooms? If it does include Erika, then "Erika" can be any one person except Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo. Which would reduce the suspect list to Rudolf, Kyrie, and Kanon. But Kyrie is in a different room, in red.

Rudolf or Kanon? (triple edit: I suppose Shannon is also possible. Goodness, Shannon seems to be a lot of people lately doesn't she?)

Last edited by Renall; 2010-02-08 at 17:43.
Renall is offline  
Old 2010-02-08, 17:33   Link #1433
Kitsu
The unlucky one
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Hiding
Those five are interesting options but still rather odd.

Before the family conference, Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa left the mansion and moved to the guesthouse.


If we look at the older games the setup inside the Guesthouse is off as Kanon, Shannon and Genji are normally supposed to go to Guesthouse and this is the first time they aren't which is strange in itself (except for episode 4 which was...well weird). Also normally there would be three servants for the people in the gueshouse. Do you think they would leave only the slacker Kumasawa and Gohda with the guests and keep more servants with them in the mansion?
Also it would be strange for one of the adults to miss out the conference, right?
Therefore I believe Erika is either Kanon or Shannon
But can you imagine that they would work together with Eva? We know Shannon's and Eva's relationship is certainly not the best and Kanon despises her so why would they do that?
So I think all five choices are rather strange
__________________
Thanks for the Signature, Vandakiara

Last edited by Kitsu; 2010-02-08 at 17:43.
Kitsu is offline  
Old 2010-02-08, 17:45   Link #1434
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Anyone may enter the room if they are "Erika" or "Kanon."

Anyone may leave the room if they are "Battler."

Nothing is said about how many Battlers can leave.
Renall is offline  
Old 2010-02-08, 17:52   Link #1435
LyricalAura
Dea ex Kakera
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
EDIT EDIT: If "all other people" doesn't include Erika, who sealed them in the rooms? If it does include Erika, then "Erika" can be any one person except Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo. Which would reduce the suspect list to Rudolf, Kyrie, and Kanon. But Kyrie is in a different room, in red.

Rudolf or Kanon?
The one who rescued Battler was unmistakeably Kanon himself. Erika is not the rescuer. Check.

...But only if "Erika" is the same person in both episodes, which I don't think is workable since it makes Rudolf one of the culprits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsu
Therefore I believe Erika is either Kanon or Shannon
But can you imagine that they would work together with Eva? We know Shannon's and Eva's relationship is certainly not the best and Kanon despises her so why would they do that?
Eva's resistance might crumble pretty quickly if she found out that Shannon had helped Battler locate the gold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall
Anyone may enter the room if they are "Erika" or "Kanon."

Anyone may leave the room if they are "Battler."

Nothing is said about how many Battlers can leave.
But someone has to have relocked the chain, and it wasn't Erika.
LyricalAura is offline  
Old 2010-02-08, 17:55   Link #1436
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Eva's resistance might crumble pretty quickly if she found out that Shannon had helped Battler locate the gold.
If "Erika" already knows where the gold is, then leading Battler along and helping him suddenly makes a bit more sense. She wasn't an arrogant jerk who took credit for Battler's discovery. She just was leading him to the same conclusions she'd already made before.

But why would they let her leave the conference room, unless specifically for the purpose of establishing alibis for everyone there?
Renall is offline  
Old 2010-02-08, 17:59   Link #1437
blitz1/2
Tenshi's Defense Squadron
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Fighting against those who oppress the system
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Before the family conference, Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa left the mansion and moved to the guesthouse.

"Erika" probably would therefore not be George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, or Kumasawa.

Of those who remain, only Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji were in the second floor corridor, while all others were in the dining hall.

"Erika" would not be Krauss, Natsuhi, or Genji.

Note that "all others" does not say who is in the dining hall. By process of elimination we are led to believe that Battler, Rudolf, Kyrie, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rosa, Shannon, and Kanon are in the dining hall. If one of them is "Erika," that is not true.

At 24:00, except for Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji in the second floor corridor and all of the people in the dining hall, no humans existed inside the mansion.

Again, no mention of this.

Not a single person in the dining hall...no, there's a simpler way to say it. Among all those inside the mansion at 24:00, not a single person placed that letter in the corridor.

Someone who was shown "in the dining hall" was "Erika" and was not in the mansion at 24:00. They placed the letter, or else came back with it later.

In addition to Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji, none of those in the dining hall made the knock.

"Erika" was not in the dining hall.

From 1:00 AM to 3:00 AM, Erika, Nanjo, and Gohda spent their time in the lounge on the first floor of the guesthouse.

Therefore, during their entire meeting in the lounge, only Rosa went up to the second floor!

Both your seal and your red truth are perfect. Nanjo had the alibi of being with Erika until 3:00 AM. And he didn't leave his room after 3:00 AM until morning.


Erika was with Nanjo the whole time until 3:00 AM. Also, Rosa is probably not "Erika."

"Erika" was with someone else. Gohda and Nanjo would have confirmed that this person was with them, but Lambda altered the story so they were with Erika instead of "Erika," and placed whoever "Erika" is in the dining room where they were not present.

Eva's seal was of the same type as <Miss> Erika's. That is because this method of sealing was one that <Miss> Erika and Eva conceived of together after DINNER.

Eva is not "Erika," but Eva worked together with "Erika."

Furudo Erika is the detective in this game, not me!!

Whoever is "Erika" is the detective, and Battler is not. Alternately, Meta-Erika is the detective and no one else is. This would suggest Battler isn't "Erika" either though.

So who is left?

Rudolf, Kyrie, Hideyoshi, Shannon, and Kanon

EDIT: I just blew my own damn mind.

Point:
The rescuer is defined as the person who reset the chain lock after Battler unset it. Let us set aside the question of whether the rescue was intentional.
At the time Battler was rescued, the only one who entered the guest room was Kanon.
The one who helped Battler escape was unmistakably Kanon himself.
At that time, I immediately closed the door and reset the chain lock, sealing the room.
Erika "sealed" the room by connecting the sections of the severed chain using her duct tape. In short, she used the seals to repair the chain, and used that to make a closed room again from the inside.

Counterpoint:
I'll acknowledge it. You, Battler, and Kanon add up to three people.
Of course. Three people, that is, three bodies, went in and out of the room. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. I already stated with the red truth that all names refer only to the actual people. Therefore, the names "Erika", "Battler", and "Kanon" refer only to the actual people.

EDIT EDIT: If "all other people" doesn't include Erika, who sealed them in the rooms? If it does include Erika, then "Erika" can be any one person except Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo. Which would reduce the suspect list to Rudolf, Kyrie, and Kanon. But Kyrie is in a different room, in red.

Rudolf or Kanon? (triple edit: I suppose Shannon is also possible. Goodness, Shannon seems to be a lot of people lately doesn't she?)
Lol, is on other words. Battler blew away Erika's existence for fun? o_o. Well, this is interesting.
__________________

hai, hai. Onii-chan has his work cut out for him.
blitz1/2 is offline  
Old 2010-02-09, 03:51   Link #1438
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
<Good>. I present the following red texts:

I am the Golden Witch Beatrice. And I opened this game in order to fight with Ushiromiya Kinzo's grandson, Ushiromiya Battler.
Ushiromiya Battler's mother is Ushiromiya Asumu.
My name is Ushiromiya Battler.
You [Battler] are not Ushiromiya Asumu's son.
The envelope which I [Beatrice] gave to Maria, and the one Rosa opened are the same envelope!!
You [Battler] were in the cousins' room and confirmed the presence of the bodies, which could not be misidentified…!


Based on that evidence, the following things have been demonstrated:
- A name may refer to multiple people.
- A name may refer to both a piece and a meta character.
- A piece's actions may be attributed to the player of the piece.


Have you ever played a video game, say, Super Mario, and said something like "I got killed by a Goomba"? I propose that the name "Erika" refers both to Piece Erika, who is dead at the start of all games, and Meta Erika, who appears in the meta world. Meta Erika had control over a detective piece in Episode 5 and a culprit piece in Episode 6. Therefore, it is allowed for actions taken by those pieces to be attributed to Erika as their player. This is not in violation of the red that all names belong only to the actual people, because Meta Erika's name is legitimately "Erika".
Allow me to state that there is difference in the case you presented and the case of the Shkannon theory and the two Battler Ushiromiya.

Names are not exclusive Has been proven to be a valid argument. However that only means that the person themselves really have the same name. In other words both the Ushiromiya Battler have all rights to call themselves Ushiromiya Battler.

In the Shkannon theory case, Shannon really is assuming the Kanon personality, she is by all means the Kanon that we have all seen, She took the name of Kanon, she is disguising as Kanon and she is the only one among the people in the island that can be called Kanon.


What you are suggesting is that the witch on a whim can attach whatever name she wants on whatever person she wants.

If that was the case imagine the consequences. Let's say Nanjo is the culprit and the detective says Nanjo is the culprit at this point the witch can merely think "well then I'll just rename Jessica for the occasion as Nanjo" and then say: Nanjo is not the culprit.
Or even better let's say that Kanon is dead, but then the witch renames him Jessica and say: Jessica is dead, and then rename him George and say George is dead and then so on until she covers 18 people making it look like 18 people have died when only one really did.

I claim that this is as bad as to say that the red truth is a lie. In fact you are suggesting that it is possible to say that Erika Furudo is alive in red even if she's actually a corpse. In that case red would be totally unreliable.

I therefore claim that it is impossible for a witch to attach a name on a person as she sees fit, and that she can only do that when the characters themselves really are called that way, are known by that name or use that name.
__________________


Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2010-02-09 at 04:10.
Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2010-02-09, 04:06   Link #1439
ijriims
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
Names....

There were two Ushiromiya Battler, one was born from Asumu (or the red texts would not work), another one we were familiar with was not born from Asumu, but also called Ushiromiya Battler.

Sayo was her own name, she could also be called Shannon, which was a codename for work, assigned by Genji or Kinzo.

Kanon was told to have real name Yoshiya, though it was not confirmed in red (Sayo was not confirmed, so someone could argue she was called Battler....), I think it was true.

Kinzo... We only knew about one Ushiromiya Kinzo, and maybe he could be called Goldensmith as well.....

What else? Jessica had an alternative name called Jessie. Kumasawa could be called Virgilia (hey, she wrote that name in Maria's grimore). Can Genji be called Ronove? Other adults, Maria and George seemed to have only one name.

Anyone who was Maria's master could be called Beatrice. So was the one making all the pranks throughout the years. 1967 one was also called Beatrice.

Any hints that other people had not only these names? I don't think so.
__________________
Kýrie, eléison

Battler, you have already known it, right?

Without Love, it cannot be seen.
ijriims is offline  
Old 2010-02-09, 04:07   Link #1440
LyricalAura
Dea ex Kakera
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
What you are suggesting is that the witch on a whim can attach whatever name she wants on whatever person she wants.

If that was the case imagine the consequences. Let's say Nanjo is the culprit and the detective says Nanjo is the culprit at this point the witch can merely think "well then I'll just rename Jessica for the occasion as Nanjo" and then say: Nanjo is not the culprit.
Or even better let's say that Kanon is dead, but then the witch renames him Jessica and say: Jessica is dead, and then raname him George and say George is dead and then so on until she covers 18 people making it look like 18 people have died when only one really did.

I claim that this is as bad as to say that the red truth is a lie. In fact you are suggesting that it is possible to say that Erika Furudo is alive in red even if she's actually a corpse. In that case red would be totally unreliable.

I therefore claim that it is impossible for a witch to attach a name on a person as she sees fit, and that she can only do that when the characters themselves use that name in the story.
Yes, that would be horribly unfair, but that wasn't what I was suggesting. My proposal was that a witch (or other player) could attach her own name to the actions of a piece that she directly manipulated, not that arbitrary renamings were allowed.

So for example, if Beatrice controls Shannon such that Shannon hands a letter to Maria, she can say that "I, Beatrice, handed a letter over to Maria" but not that "Nanjo handed a letter to Maria."
LyricalAura is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 17:24.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.