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Old 2010-02-10, 19:35   Link #1461
Axilios
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She is not the detective in EP6. The real question would be: how can the piece of the human side be allowed to not be the detective?
It is quite clear according to the plot, but I was wondering, then, why was she able to state
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Nice to meet you, hello! I am Furudo Erika, a detective!! I may be an uninvited guest, but please welcome me!! I am the visitor, the eighteenth human on Rokkenjima!!
at the end of the game? Because of a difference between A detective and THE detective?
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Old 2010-02-10, 19:37   Link #1462
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But well Renall just to say we tried, if we'd have to assume that Shannon and Kanon exist as different persons and Erika also exists as a person, what kind of possibilities would you see?
This is a good question. To stifle any objections, let me reiterate what Jan-Poo is suggesting: Assume that BOTH Shkanon AND Erika-is-not-real are false. In other words, Shannon and Kanon are distinct people and Erika is a real living and breathing human. Yes, we know it's unlikely both are untrue, but we're doing a thought experiment. Since the 17 people red still applies, what follows?

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I can think of...

1) Another two persons are actually one person

However this would mean questioning the objective perspective of Battler in Ep 1-4 which has been somehow confirmed by Dlanor. Also there doesn't seem any hint.
Tricky because I think there's at least one scene where Battler sees nearly everyone at once except Shannon or Kanon (and for this line of thought, we're assuming Shkanon is false). However, nothing states that the detective cannot be deceived. We know Kinzo and Kanon cannot be mistaken on sight, but relatively few other people have the same distinction. And any scene where at least one person is unaccounted-for allow you to pull the "someone was disguised!" card. Lame, but possible.
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2) Battler doesn't exist

You could apply the same logic of the Erika doesn't exist theory here. Battler is just taking the perspective of one of the people in Rokkenjima. Kinda wacky if you ask me... well it is as wacky as the "Erika doesn't exist" theory. However Erika in Ep5 should have noticed that Battler doesn't exist since she had a full detective authority. And yet how could she not notice that she herself doesn't exist? And in case you claim that she knows, then why is that she claims to be the 18th person?
Battler as detective doesn't necessitate that he need to exist. But if his piece's perspective is reliable, people shouldn't be talking to him and about him. You could try to argue that he's accurately seeing what people are saying to a different person, but Maria messes it up because she very explicitly calls Battler Battler in every episode. So Maria is seeing Battler as Battler, if no one else. And other people do the same at various points in a fashion that wouldn't make sense for people who aren't speaking to Battler (Kyrie and Rudolf especially).
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3) There are actually 18 people including Erika and Beatrice and Battler used some sort of loophole to state they are 17.

This would explain why Erika could say she's the 18th persons, but it doesn't make sense with the following red. And a killer sentence at the end of a game that turns out to be just a sham is just plain lame.
I agree with you there, and I don't really see any way out of the red. I can get around Erika's red, but not Battler and Beato's. The only way I could see twisting it is the conditional statement if. Like there's only 17 people if and only if Erika arrives. But that doesn't really make any sense. Why would Erika's arrival fix the number of people lower?
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I can't really see many other options...
I have one more: Someone leaves or dies and someone else arrives. The old, tired theory. I realize it's been chewed up and spat out a thousand times, but at least Erika's red sorta supports it. She's the 18th person, but there are only 17. If person #17 leaves and person #18 arrives, the number is fixed at 17.

Of course this is highly improbable. Someone would always have to leave when Erika arrives, or be killed on the 4th during the afternoon for unclear reasons. Additionally, for this to work, Battler would have to not see the person who left or died again. As I'm pretty sure he sees nearly everyone at or after dinner, this doesn't seem likely.
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She is not the detective in EP6. The real question would be: how can the piece of the human side be allowed to not be the detective?
There's no reason every story needs a detective.

And yes, there is a difference between "a" detective and "the" detective. Erika calls herself "a" detective as a profession (although she's only like what, 16?). However, "the" detective in an episode of Umineko is a particular and special role.
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Old 2010-02-10, 20:23   Link #1463
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Anyway I have another to thing to present to you. You have previously affirmed that the word "人数" refers to the number of humans regardless of their dead/alive status. In that case:

つまり、今、この客間にいる人数が、在島者全ての人数、ってことになるわね。

According to your interpretation this red text suggests that at a certain point in time all humans regardless of their dead/alive status are inside the parlour. Which means that Kinzo's body and Erika's body should be in there as well.
How do you explain that?
Actually what I meant was that 人数 is a neutral term. You can still restrict it to living or dead people with modifying phrases, like 死亡者 or 生残者. In the case of that sentence, it works out if 在島者 refers to living people specifically, which is how Battler uses it in his blue text.

That said, I'm not completely convinced by the word games either, so I'm definitely open to other ways to make the theory work. The idea of a "Detective Illusion" counterbalancing the "Witch Illusion" explains too many things to just discard it, though.

Hmm... Here's something that might be helpful.

Erika is the detective, but as we discussed earlier, in the case of the Erika Doesn't Exist theory, her corpse must have washed up on the island at the beginning of the game. It was demonstrated by Battler in the first four games that the detective's POV ceases to be trustworthy after they die. Therefore, there was no objective POV during Episode 5, just like in Episode 6.

Lambda and Bern conspired to hide Erika's death by inserting her into the story and doctoring the scenes where she interacted with other characters. It was demonstrated that Bern didn't really need to rely on Erika's supposedly perfect observations to introduce red. So in particular, we can conclude that the witches also conspired to maintain the illusion that Erika's perspective was objective. Since Erika herself didn't know she was dead, she continued to believe that her POV was trustworthy.


It doesn't really help with the red text about Erika's actions, but it does explain how she could behave unrealistically and have the other characters respond to her unrealistically even though she's the detective.
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Old 2010-02-10, 20:30   Link #1464
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The winner of the game can rewrite the game to suite their truths. IE: The stakes are paper weights as Erika or Bern said during the end of episode 5. So, Battler and Beato won the 6th game and they decided to write Erika out. I am sure there are things that you cannot change like the 17 on the island or that the stakes are on the island. Ange cannot show up, etc.
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Old 2010-02-10, 20:35   Link #1465
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The stakes aren't actually paperweights, as that was just an (insulting) description by Bern. They are, however, mass-produced replicas, not the thousand-year-old ritual relics they believe themselves to be.
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Old 2010-02-10, 21:33   Link #1466
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If Erika doesn't exist, all her improbable sealings and other issues are easily resolved. Dlanor doesn't have to confirm actual acts, merely conditions that would have been theoretically possible for the detective within the story. Erika proposes something the detective could have done, and if there is no objection, she is permitted to act as if she did do it.

This seems confirmed in ep6 where Battler decrees the tape is unsuitable for creating seals, which wasn't true in ep5. He then relents and allows for rooms to be sealed anyway. So he can decide, as Game Master, whether such an act is "possible" for the detective. He can even arbitrarily limit it (the room number limitation), or change it mid-game.

Erika would've been permitted to get away with her shenanigans in ep5 because Lambda wasn't going to object to it (in part because it didn't matter in the end anyway, I suppose).
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Old 2010-02-10, 21:35   Link #1467
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If Erika doesn't exist, all her improbable sealings and other issues are easily resolved. Dlanor doesn't have to confirm actual acts, merely conditions that would have been theoretically possible for the detective within the story. Erika proposes something the detective could have done, and if there is no objection, she is permitted to act as if she did do it.

This seems confirmed in ep6 where Battler decrees the tape is unsuitable for creating seals, which wasn't true in ep5. He then relents and allows for rooms to be sealed anyway. So he can decide, as Game Master, whether such an act is "possible" for the detective. He can even arbitrarily limit it (the room number limitation), or change it mid-game.

Erika would've been permitted to get away with her shenanigans in ep5 because Lambda wasn't going to object to it (in part because it didn't matter in the end anyway, I suppose).
You can't pretend that the 'Erika doesn't exist' theory, compelling as it is, doesn't have its holes, though. As I'm sure Jan-Poo will soon point out.
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Old 2010-02-10, 21:35   Link #1468
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
You can't pretend that the 'Erika doesn't exist' theory, compelling as it is, doesn't have its holes, though.
...and? You know what the word "if" means, right?
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Old 2010-02-10, 21:41   Link #1469
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...and? You know what the word "if" means, right?
I'm aware of that. I'm just saying that, if there is a solution to Ep6's final mystery, it shouldn't have major holes, at least not ones that aren't easy to explain away.

As I've said every game, I still think we're missing something really, really important. I just have no idea what that is.
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Old 2010-02-11, 02:48   Link #1470
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I have one more: Someone leaves or dies and someone else arrives. The old, tired theory. I realize it's been chewed up and spat out a thousand times, but at least Erika's red sorta supports it. She's the 18th person, but there are only 17. If person #17 leaves and person #18 arrives, the number is fixed at 17.

Of course this is highly improbable. Someone would always have to leave when Erika arrives, or be killed on the 4th during the afternoon for unclear reasons. Additionally, for this to work, Battler would have to not see the person who left or died again. As I'm pretty sure he sees nearly everyone at or after dinner, this doesn't seem likely.
In EP6, both Battler and Erika did not see Kanon personally(I mean the piece Battler and piece Erika did not see Kanon as Yoshiya). And his death had already been hinted in the game (Shannon argued with Kanon, and in her duel with Kanon, she killed him).

Reason? We knew that in that episode, Kanon had a sudden change of heart and started being honest to his own feeling to Jessica, that's why he had to get into duel with Shannon.

Realistically, the reason why he was killed was because he tried to thwart Shannon's plan in order to keep both he and Jessica alive. But because Shannon was to carry out the epitaph murder plan, she had to kill him.

All were done before Erika arrived.

Latter, Genji and Shannon just bore the name kanon and created lies to make Kanon seemingly alive.


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Old 2010-02-11, 05:24   Link #1471
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Actually what I meant was that 人数 is a neutral term. You can still restrict it to living or dead people with modifying phrases, like 死亡者 or 生残者. In the case of that sentence, it works out if 在島者 refers to living people specifically, which is how Battler uses it in his blue text.

That said, I'm not completely convinced by the word games either, so I'm definitely open to other ways to make the theory work. The idea of a "Detective Illusion" counterbalancing the "Witch Illusion" explains too many things to just discard it, though.
I guess you can somehow get away with this explanation but it is certainly unfair that in one case a term used in the red has a meaning and in other has another meaning in such an arbitrary manner... Then again... that "Ushiromiya Battler" thing showed that this kind of thing is possible...



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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Hmm... Here's something that might be helpful.

Erika is the detective, but as we discussed earlier, in the case of the Erika Doesn't Exist theory, her corpse must have washed up on the island at the beginning of the game. It was demonstrated by Battler in the first four games that the detective's POV ceases to be trustworthy after they die. Therefore, there was no objective POV during Episode 5, just like in Episode 6.

Lambda and Bern conspired to hide Erika's death by inserting her into the story and doctoring the scenes where she interacted with other characters. It was demonstrated that Bern didn't really need to rely on Erika's supposedly perfect observations to introduce red. So in particular, we can conclude that the witches also conspired to maintain the illusion that Erika's perspective was objective. Since Erika herself didn't know she was dead, she continued to believe that her POV was trustworthy.


It doesn't really help with the red text about Erika's actions, but it does explain how she could behave unrealistically and have the other characters respond to her unrealistically even though she's the detective.
So you claim that Bern is actually deceiving Erika. But why? What kind of use Bern has for a piece that is totally unreliable? At this point Battler was by far a better piece, at least he had a perfectly objective perspective.

This sounds quite counterproductive for Bernkastel especially considering that in the end this lack of knowledge ultimately led Erika to lose in EP6.

And yet in a way this idea actually helps solving one of the biggest problems with the shkannon theory. That is the fact that Bern should have noticed that during the playback Battler sees Kanon and Shannon in the parlor, while during the actual game Erika didn't see them (she couldn't possibly see them if she has detective authority and the Shkannon theory is true).


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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If Erika doesn't exist, all her improbable sealings and other issues are easily resolved. Dlanor doesn't have to confirm actual acts, merely conditions that would have been theoretically possible for the detective within the story. Erika proposes something the detective could have done, and if there is no objection, she is permitted to act as if she did do it.

This seems confirmed in ep6 where Battler decrees the tape is unsuitable for creating seals, which wasn't true in ep5. He then relents and allows for rooms to be sealed anyway. So he can decide, as Game Master, whether such an act is "possible" for the detective. He can even arbitrarily limit it (the room number limitation), or change it mid-game.

Erika would've been permitted to get away with her shenanigans in ep5 because Lambda wasn't going to object to it (in part because it didn't matter in the end anyway, I suppose).
So what you are suggesting is that there has never been any seal in the actual gameboard and that "seal" only refers to a speculative metaworldish seal?
I can't deny this possibility but how much fucked up this story can be? Certainly I assume that this is merely a story a fiction... but I assumed that reds need to refer to things that actually happen in the story.

To be clear on one point. I do believe that in the real world Erika doesn't exist in Rokkenjima. But at the same time I believe that inside Ep5 and EP6 she exists as a character. I have already "revised" the reds in a way that they do not necessarily need to talk about real facts, would I have to revise them again in a way that they do not necessarily need to talk about facts that happen in the story and extend them to facts that happen in the metaworld? The reds are getting less and less valuable...

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
You can't pretend that the 'Erika doesn't exist' theory, compelling as it is, doesn't have its holes, though. As I'm sure Jan-Poo will soon point out.
Well of course, but by that logic I shouldn't consider valid the Shkannon theory as well. We both can invoke the chance that a "hole-fixing explanation X" exists. As I pointed out many times even the "Kinzo is dead" theory had some holes in it and it could only be fully explained once we knew about Krauss's predicament.

The main reason I believe in the shkannon theory now is because it fully explains everything that is related to the Shannon Kannon Beatrice situation shown in EP6, not because it is a perfect way to go around red texts.

Renall however goes by a completely different approach, he thinks that the solution must be hard to get not easy and apparent, so right because everything screams Shkannon theory there must be a different explanation.
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Old 2010-02-11, 06:22   Link #1472
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Renall however goes by a completely different approach, he thinks that the solution must be hard to get not easy and apparent, so right because everything screams Shkannon theory there must be a different explanation.
Rather than just charging how Shkanon theory was, I think any opposers against Shkanon should construct an alternative theory on explaining scenes from EP6, in a satisfying way.

Just like what Battler did in Ep5.

But still I have to ask what EP5 taught us about? Even though the evidence and reasoning seemed mounting against you (Natsuhi as the only possible culprit), one should believe in their judgment (Natsuhi could not have commited these murders) and defend it till the end.
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Old 2010-02-11, 10:42   Link #1473
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So you claim that Bern is actually deceiving Erika. But why? What kind of use Bern has for a piece that is totally unreliable? At this point Battler was by far a better piece, at least he had a perfectly objective perspective.

This sounds quite counterproductive for Bernkastel especially considering that in the end this lack of knowledge ultimately led Erika to lose in EP6.
At the beginning of Episode 5, Battler already refused to work with Bernkastel anymore, and Lambda couldn't let her use another human piece as a detective without revealing part of the mystery. Even if Piece Battler could be used to help solve the epitaph, he certainly wouldn't take most of the actions Bern wanted out of a piece either. So Bern and Lambda made an agreement to use a fantasy piece as a detective, with the understanding that Lambda would make Erika's observations "objective enough" for Bern to actually get red text related to them. However, the red text she could get was completely at the GM's discretion, which is why Lambda was able to prevent the study's windows were never opened after it started raining from being used in the study battle.

In Episode 6, it looks like Battler decided to go along with that agreement. He wanted a fight with Meta Erika, and he wasn't in any mood to let Bern play with his own piece either, so that was the only reasonable course of action. Bern did end up discarding the "detective's authority" part, which put her at a disadvantage from a mystery-solving perspective, but we already know why she did that -- she wasn't trying to solve the mystery, she was trying to kill Battler.
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Old 2010-02-11, 11:10   Link #1474
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Did she cut off Battler's head too?
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Old 2010-02-11, 12:15   Link #1475
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Rather than just charging how Shkanon theory was, I think any opposers against Shkanon should construct an alternative theory on explaining scenes from EP6, in a satisfying way.

Just like what Battler did in Ep5.

But still I have to ask what EP5 taught us about? Even though the evidence and reasoning seemed mounting against you (Natsuhi as the only possible culprit), one should believe in their judgment (Natsuhi could not have commited these murders) and defend it till the end.
In my point of view EP5 teaches that there is more than one viable truth, but and that you shouldnt give up and surrender to a loveless one like Natsuhi being the culprit or Shkanontrice commiting the murders because she has a LOL identity disorder.

If anything EP5 shows us that there could be more answers if we just looked the another way for a second.
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Old 2010-02-11, 12:21   Link #1476
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Did she cut off Battler's head too?
I meant Meta-Battler. Erika warned him right off the bat that her goal was to kill him by forcing a logic error.

Although now that you mention it, Piece Battler is listed as dead at the first twilight in the end scroll. More proof that the endscroll represents the supposed deaths and not the actual ones.
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Old 2010-02-11, 12:54   Link #1477
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In my point of view EP5 teaches that there is more than one viable truth, but and that you shouldnt give up and surrender to a loveless one like Natsuhi being the culprit or Shkanontrice commiting the murders because she has a LOL identity disorder.

If anything EP5 shows us that there could be more answers if we just looked the another way for a second.
So far, all I have read was people criticizing how improbable Shkanontrice was. True. But people could not totally make sense of EP6 in this case, this episode hinted at Shkanontrice or Shakanon in many ways.

Unless people have a really deep trust in Ryukishi07 and his or her own judgment, it is easy for people to give up and believe in what EP6 was hinting at.

It is difficult to provide alternative explanation for some scenes if one have not read EP6 yet.

(I have never, ever been a supporter of Shakanon or Shkanontrice, but I agree that Shannontrice was a reasonable theory, as long as Shannon was not Kanon from EP1-5)
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Old 2010-02-11, 19:21   Link #1478
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Piece-Battler was never killed, because he wasn't in the room when Erika entered. This triggered the Logic Error, as Erika argued it was impossible for Battler not to be in the room.

Beatrice eventually salvages the situation, and her solution permits Battler to have escaped, so as far as I know at the end of the ep6 game Piece-Battler is alive and MIA somewhere in the mansion where nobody can locate him. But who knows, really.
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Old 2010-02-11, 19:51   Link #1479
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Piece-Battler was never killed, because he wasn't in the room when Erika entered. This triggered the Logic Error, as Erika argued it was impossible for Battler not to be in the room.

Beatrice eventually salvages the situation, and her solution permits Battler to have escaped, so as far as I know at the end of the ep6 game Piece-Battler is alive and MIA somewhere in the mansion where nobody can locate him. But who knows, really.
As I remembered correctly, Piece Battler was the one who put the one-winged envelope on the doorstep, which Erika and Dlanor found after they sealed up the doors and window. This is what triggered her to call Battler out on a logic error.
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Old 2010-02-11, 19:54   Link #1480
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As I remembered correctly, Piece Battler was the one who put the one-winged envelope on the doorstep, which Erika and Dlanor found after they sealed up the doors and window. This is what triggered her to call Battler out on a logic error.
The fact that he was able to do so implies that he had the head's ring... Maybe he solved the epitaph early again?
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