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Old 2010-02-20, 01:53   Link #1641
Renall
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The conference is a clear influence on events, as it is wildly different every game. I would submit that there are other factors that may apply:
  • When and whether the adults try to blackmail Krauss. It didn't happen in ep2, I believe, or was delayed while everyone pondered this "Beatrice" person arriving. Also what they try to use against him. The blackmail attempt in ep1 doesn't go well. The attempt in ep4, where they insinuate Kinzo's death, goes better and makes Krauss nervous, leading to the claim that Kinzo will attend the conference.
  • What the servants and Nanjo are up to. Is Shannon at the beach? Is Kanon staying late in the rose garden? Is Nanjo claiming to be playing chess with Kinzo?
  • Where the servants are assigned for the evening, and why. Gohda is usually at the mansion, but in ep5 he's at the guesthouse. Shannon is assigned to the guesthouse with Genji and Kanon, but she goes to the mansion in ep1.
  • Whether anyone actually sees "Beatrice," besides (or possibly including) Maria.
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Old 2010-02-20, 02:27   Link #1642
Judoh
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I'm going to need to ask what the logic error is because I've been seeing Jan_poo and Renall go back and forth and I'm not sure how any of what's going on solves anything. I think I need to know what the logic error is to make sense of it and what Beatrice's proposed solution was. I've been trying to find it by looking back in this thread, but it's proving to be difficult as I'm only find vague references to what it is.

Besides that:

If we could go to a hypothetical for a moment. Say the nonexistence or starting death of any character as a blue truth or an alternate explanation was sealed. How would you explain the closed rooms and the rescue mystery without the nonexistence or starting death of any of the characters? Can you come up with a theory that doesn't use denial of any of the characters as a scapegoat method to explain the mysteries in episode 6?

Edit: I'm getting quite tired of this idea that the only way to solve the mystery is to make it so there less suspects so less culprits exist. Frankly I like both Kanon and Erika as characters and I don't want to accept an explanation that argues that they don't exist or that their dead at the start of all or certain games to solve it. it irritates me. For one thing if you argue Erika drowned you have to leave out an important TIP for her disappearance when she dies. The possible explosion. If you argue Shkanon you have to leave out the possibility that a living person named Kanon killed people in certain episodes and I don't want to accept that either.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-02-20 at 02:49.
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Old 2010-02-20, 03:07   Link #1643
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I'm going to need to ask what the logic error is because I've been seeing Jan_poo and Renall go back and forth and I'm not sure how any of what's going on solves anything. I think I need to know what the logic error is to make sense of it and what Beatrice's proposed solution was. I've been trying to find it by looking back in this thread, but it's proving to be difficult as I'm only find vague references to what it is.
The logic error refers to the situation surrounding Battler's disappearance from the guest room he supposedly died in. It's described in detail in the Chapter 15 summary I posted before, but I'll give a quick rundown of the final board state that triggered it.

After the first twilight was discovered, Erika inspected the "victims" and killed all of them except for Battler. She then placed a seal on the door of the guest room Battler was in, and rejoined the survivors.

Everyone returned to the guesthouse and divided into the cousins' room and neighboring room to wait out the storm. Erika snuck out and conducted a check of the everyone's locations. The first twilight victims were all in their original rooms. Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in the neighboring room, and "everyone else (excluding Kinzo)" was in the cousins' room. After the check, Erika sealed both rooms. At this point, supposedly everyone's location is known.

Back at the mansion, Erika verified that the guest room seal was intact. She went inside and immediately repaired and set the chain lock with duct tape. She searched everywhere except for the closet and didn't find Battler anywhere. She was distracted for several minutes in the bathroom by a strange trap that hadn't been there previously, but when she emerged, the chain lock was still locked. Meta Battler announced that Battler was not anywhere in the room.

The only way this is possible is if someone came from outside and switched places with Battler to let him out. However, all other living people were supposedly sealed in the guesthouse. Of those seals, all of them except for the neighboring room window were intact at the time Erika emerged from the bathroom. Dlanor forbade solutions making use of that window. So, who rescued Battler from the room?

According to Beato's solution, Kanon vanished from the cousins' room, which was sealed, and rescued Battler while Erika was in the bathroom. Then, he hid in the closet and immediately evaporated again. He definitely entered the guest room, and he definitely didn't leave, but he doesn't exist in the room anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh
Besides that:

If we could go to a hypothetical for a moment. Say the nonexistence or starting death of any character as a blue truth or an alternate explanation was sealed. How would you explain the closed rooms and the rescue mystery without the nonexistence or starting death of any of the characters? Can you come up with a theory that doesn't use denial of any of the characters as a scapegoat method to explain the mysteries in episode 6?
The logic error itself doesn't necessarily require someone's nonexistence or death. Kanon = Kinzo still works fine, for instance. Battler and Beato's last red to finish the duel with Erika does seem to require erasing someone though; otherwise, how can there be 18 introduced characters and only 17 people on the island?
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Old 2010-02-20, 03:22   Link #1644
Judoh
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Ugh.. with a stupid paradox like this it would be much easier to argue that episode 6 is the thing that doesn't exist.

But with the rooms sealed this sounds more like a challenge at deceiving Erika into thinking that both rooms were sealed rather than how Kanon can be in a sealed room and still rescue Battler. It's ridiculous to think you can deceive someone with a photographic memory into thinking that though. To accomplish this we'd have to turn Kanon into some kind of magician or a ninja at a level of trickery that could surpass even Houdini.

This is kind of a childish metaphor, but aren't the last reds kind of like a group of boys reacting to a girl who wants to enter their tree house? The girl asks" if she can be invited in" and the group inside says "there are already enough people your not allowed to play with us".

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-02-20 at 04:36.
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Old 2010-02-20, 03:31   Link #1645
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Ugh.. with a stupid paradox like this it would be much easier to argue that episode 6 is the thing that doesn't exist.

But with the rooms sealed this sounds more like a challenge at deceiving Erika into thinking that both rooms were sealed rather than how Kanon can be in a sealed room and still rescue Battler. It's ridiculous to think you can deceive someone with a photographic memory into thinking that though. To accomplish this we'd have to turn Kanon into some kind of magician or a ninja at a level of trickery that could surpass even Houdini.
All of the seals in question were declared in red, and the seals can't be deceived, so that's barking up the wrong tree. If Kanon was inside the cousins' room at the time of the location check, that's game over. So the real question, as everyone in the game acknowledged, is "how was Kanon not inside the cousins' room at the time of the location check?"

Note that the location check and sealing was all done with time stopped, so there's no room for something like "Ninja Kanon."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh
This is kind of a childish metaphor, aren't the last reds kind of like a group of boys reacting to a girl who wants to enter their tree house? The girl asks" if she can be invited in" and the group inside says "there are already enough people your not allowed to play with us".
If the girl beheaded five of my family members, killed my girlfriend, and tried to make me a soulless doll for eternity, I wouldn't let her in either. By that measure, "you can come in but you're still a corpse, sorry" is remarkably restrained.

Last edited by LyricalAura; 2010-02-20 at 03:50.
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Old 2010-02-20, 03:50   Link #1646
Judoh
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Note that the location check and sealing was all done with time stopped, so there's no room for something like "Ninja Kanon."
In that case... could I argue that Kanon was leaving the cousins room at the exact moment time stopped and that he merged with the door when time froze and Erika sealed the door?
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Old 2010-02-20, 03:52   Link #1647
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
In that case... could I argue that Kanon was leaving the cousins room at the exact moment time stopped and that he merged with the door when time froze and Erika sealed the door?
Without being seen by Erika, who was standing in front of the door, which was closed?

This might be helpful: Erika said that when she said "everyone else", the definition of that is "all names that I didn't explicitly mention previously." By her example, if Kanon's real name were "George" instead of "Yoshiya", then he could be in the neighboring room instead of the cousins' room, since "George" was explicitly listed in that room.
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Old 2010-02-20, 03:58   Link #1648
Judoh
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Without being seen by Erika, who was standing in front of the door, which was closed?
I know it's kind of silly, but it's the only thing I can think of for how Kanon could exist in that room and not exist in that room at the same time. He would have to be halfway outside and halfway inside. I don't know how Erika couldn't see him, but if we're coming up random ridiculous theories that'd do it.

either that or Kanon = Kinzo
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Old 2010-02-20, 04:04   Link #1649
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I know it's kind of silly, but it's the only thing I can think of for how Kanon could exist in that room and not exist in that room at the same time. He would have to be halfway outside and halfway inside. I don't know how Erika couldn't see him, but if we're coming up random ridiculous theories that'd do it.

either that or Kanon = Kinzo
When I talk about Kanon = Kinzo, please don't confuse it to mean that "Kanon" refers to the old man Kinzo. That really would be a silly argument, and it's denied by Beato's red anyway.

What I suggested was that Kanon was adopted by Kinzo from the orphanage and named after him. There have been several hints that Kanon was close to Kinzo, and in Episode 4 it was said that everyone recognized the existence of Kinzo even though we know that the old man Kinzo does not exist. If Kanon's real name is "Kinzo", then since "Kinzo" was excluded from "everyone else", his location wasn't specified during the location check, so he could be anywhere on the island.

Also, there was so much mystery built up around Kanon's name that I'd be completely shocked if it actually was something boring and unimportant like "Yoshiya."
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Old 2010-02-20, 04:14   Link #1650
Judoh
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Okay with the hints available I think that makes the most sense.

It could be Kanon's real name is George or Nanjo or even Kumasawa for anyone who want to believe he's a reverse trap.

For Kanon = Kinzo to work I wouldn't see it as a title that's a little far-fetched, so let's look at it a little differently. Say that Kanon is really the son of Kinzo and his mistress Beatrice and he was put in the Fukuin orphanage because they wanted to hide that. There is a lot of foreshadowing for that in episode 2 and there isn't anything saying Kinzo didn't have a child like that. Kanon's name would be Kinzo not because it's a title, but because he was named after his father. In other words in episode 4 they recognized the existence of "the bastard son named Kinzo". In fact the whole thing about welcoming the guest in episode 2 could be about welcoming Kanon only it wasn't said that way.

Edit: This could also explain why he rejects Jessica because Kanon (possibly) knows that their blood related. If this is true Kanon couldn't love jessica in the first place because he's related to her, but maybe Shannon can love George because she's not related to the Ushiromiya family.

Or we could use the foreshadowing for Maria's name as an example. it doesn't help solve the check, but lets run with it. Kanon's real name could be Maria or if he's male it could be Marian and that could be why Kinzo didn't like that Rosa named her Daughter Maria because he wanted to introduce his bastard child to the family later. Unfortunately he died before that ever happened.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-02-20 at 04:45.
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Old 2010-02-20, 04:23   Link #1651
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Okay with the hints available I think that makes the most sense.

It could be Kanon's real name is George or Nanjo or even Kumasawa for anyone who want to believe he's a reverse trap.
The names of people in the neighboring room don't work because of the blue truth seal on the window, but if Kanon's a girl, then all of the first twilight victims are fair game (including Maria, like you said). You'd have to explain why she was in the same room as a corpse at the time of the location check, but that's not particularly difficult.
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Old 2010-02-20, 06:26   Link #1652
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
She didn't have time to kill Battler, but she had time to run back to the guesthouse and put seals on the windows? Actually, if she's the one who killed the first twilight victims, what exactly is the purpose of putting duct tape everywhere in the first place? You could make some kind of case about Battler's room since he was supposed to be dead, but what does Piece Erika gain from sealing in the survivors? Like Ronove said, it's not as if duct tape actually stops anyone from leaving.
I bet you are not really buying the story that she didn't kill Battler because she didn't have enough time, that hardly makes any sense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Even if we ignore that problem, there are other issues with your proposal. Let's say Erika didn't join up with Krauss before returning to the guesthouse.
- She's already been seen by Krauss's group. Why did they leave without her?
- How did she know everyone would stay at the guesthouse?
- How could she be sure everyone would go along with her plan?
- How did she know which room was the cousins' room? (This one isn't particularly hard to work around, but it's worth mentioning.)
It's a lot of things that should make you realize it is useless to try to look at the game as if it was a real story. It's fiction. You will never be able to solve this game until you realize it.
Erika is a character in a story, and Battler's game is a third rate mystery novel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Even with retroactive moves, it would be nice if the gameboard plot still made some kind of sense. I guess you could say something like "Piece Erika was just being crazy and got exceptionally lucky," but that sounds like a huge copout to me.
I prefer to think the red is unquestionable rather than the game needs to make sense. The first was specified in the story, but I've never seen any statement that declares the game is "real" or that the game needs to be consistent.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Ahem, endgame of Episode 2? If that one wasn't unfair, how is it unfair to show a scene to justify the lack of seals?
It's been suggested already that the game at that time was finished already, maybe Battler was dead or drunk, it doesn't matter. You should realize that it would make little sense if the "detective objective perspective" in EP1-4 would be questioned, especially after what Dlanor said about it in EP5.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
As for Erika lying for herself, from EP5 we have: The detective does not have the right to falsify their point of view.
fine. The explain this:

I proclaim that Furudo Erika is the detective. - Lamba start of the game
Furudo Erika is the detective in this game, not me!! - Battler end of the game.

Clearly in Ep5 Erika has been the detective from the start to the end.

If you think that Erika seeing Dlanor goes against the red you mentioned, i.e. if you think that the red you mentioned isn't limited to facts related to the gameboard (which is what I think), how can you make sense of it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Detective authority is also not a matter of "fair play." It was repeated several times in this episode that having that authority actually gave Erika an enormous advantage in the previous game. If anything, the EP6 situation is more balanced, as long as Erika doesn't cheat by abusing the pseudo-detective status Battler's giving her (which of course, she did). What Battler actually wanted was for Erika to have that advantageous position again, so he could properly crush her at the height of her power.

Up until Erika declared that she wasn't going to use detective's authority, Battler had no reason to hold back at all because he thought he was up against someone with a frightening weapon she could use at will. And afterward, he thought she was giving herself a handicap to redeem herself, so holding back himself would defeat the purpose.
Ahem... up until Erika declared that she wasn't going to use detective's authority, Battler wouldn't know he had the option to make her see false scenes... or am I missing something?

Also redeeming? Where was it said? And isn't it contradictory that "Battler actually wanted for Erika to have that advantageous position again" only to break it later?

Why do you think Dlanor said that Battler has been arrogant? If he really exploited Erika's weakness, I wouldn't say so...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I proposed a theory earlier about how "Erika" could be someone in the neighboring room according to the final state of the board. The basic idea is that Beato went into the duel with the intention of erasing Piece Erika and unifying her with the mastermind of the original four games. That mastermind was someone in the neighboring room, so doing it right away wasn't possible.
You also said that you think it isn't possible that someone broke the window seal of that room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
EP4, when Beato attempted to erase Battler. She had him try to repeat various things he thought he knew in red text. He was able to repeat some of them. In the event that he was wrong about what he thought he knew, he choked and wasn't able to get the red out.

On that basis, presumably if he had tried to say "Kyrie rescued Battler" in red, he would have choked at that moment and been unable to say it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Oh really? Because as I recall the red doesn't work that way at all and you're just making that up. People can talk about things they don't know. They do it in ep4. They just can't say things that are false, and they can't use red without some kind of authority. That's entirely different, and something your response indicates you do not support.

I imagined you would say so. Let say this isn't an inconsistency on the author's part (which I wouldn't be on it) then maybe it is that you need at least to believe you know something.

If it isn't so, you'll have an even bigger inconsistency: why no one ever uses red with trial and errors to find the truth?

I require that you answer this question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Um, I never said that. Kanon could disappear by dying. He does not have to disappear by suicide. And I'm not saying that's how he did disappear.
So he was killed by Erika and Erika didn't even realize it. That's how much sense your logic does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
No really, no one is the detective, so what can we possibly trust?
I explained why. You can argue with whatever you want, but you can't argue on what I've done! Go back and read it! If you think it isn't satisfactory then tell me which part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Actually they did have a red sealing the window. Cornelia didn't use it because she panicked at the audacity of Battler's theory. Battler and Dlanor discuss this in their later meeting.
We are talking about reds that specifically mention "seal" in them. There is absolutely no red mentioning any seal on that window.

And you completely misunderstood that part. It was Lambda that prevented Cornelia from using that red.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It's an important detail. You can handwave it as much as you like but it matters as much what is excluded as what isn't. Remember the ep3 First Twilight? The boiler room back door? The one that figured rather prominently into a scene in ep1 and yet wasn't mentioned again in ep3? Was that "stating the obvious" too?
I personally think that your biggest flaw is to give too much importance to trivial details, and not enough importance to the most relevant. All the words you spent talking about stakers, stranglers, gunners, smashers... that was totally pointless...

let me show you these reds, you probably haven't noticed:

Excluding one place, no one’s body is inside the bedroom.
No one’s body is inside the bathroom.


If you read it literally, if you don't accept the obvious "excluding the searcher's body itself", this means that there is no body in those place.
Is Erika inside the closet with Battler?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I think you're blinded by a metaphor. It can mean lots of things, all of which seem pretty plausible, and not all of which necessitate two people are the same person. They could be in conflict, for instance.
Metaphors exist to be interpreted, you are not really trying. I have an interpretation to explain the whole metaphor from start to end. Do you?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I can't counter something that was directly quoted in-game? Okay...
Renall, you said it was Battler's thoughts. that's not Battler's thought, and it is highly speculative. And why you suddenly consider something non-red to be so determinant in this case, but at the same time you don't consider important that Erika said she killed everyone when she was inspecting them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
So why can't I counter this again? I said he was willing to say Kanon was in the cousin's room in red. He didn't say it in red, but he was willing to. This means it was either possible for him to say it in red and thus fix Kanon as "possibly" being there or not (and since he said "everyone else" instead, Kanon could somehow not be there), or else he would have been prevented from saying "Kanon" in red.
For the last time it was not a fact it was a speculative sentence! Even LyricalAura accepted that you can't break it apart.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
No, "everyone else" was in a sealed room. He did not state Kanon by name. This left open the possibility for Kanon to not be in the room in the first place at the time of the sealing. There is an important distinction between "Krauss, Rudolf, Jessica, Genji, Gohda, and Kanon are in the cousins' room" and "all other people are in the cousins' room." The distinction is that if someone isn't a person, or shares a name with someone excluded from the room or placed in another room, they don't have to be in that room.
You are contradicting yourself. If Battler was willing to say in red that Kanon was inside the cousin's room, then he had to be pretty sure he was there. Or are you telling me that Battler would take the risk to use a red in front of Erika and choke in front of her showing his incompetence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
There is a reason Battler was uneasy about not declaring a census of people. It's important to the story. Why did it matter to Erika to say that? Why was Battler more comfortable not doing that?
Like when battler faked to be uneasy about Erika not checking every place in the guestroom? I rest my case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
She could take credit for it. It's self-evident that it's been repaired on sight, obviously. And I never denied "Erika" could've been the one who did it.
So self evident that Battler didn't notice at all! You are suggesting that Erika knows about the the gameboard more than Battler does. That makes a lot of sense...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Someone else inside the room could have sealed it after she entered. Or "Erika" just did it like Meta-Erika said. So what?
Not "someone else", there are only 3 persons that left or entered the room. So you have only Erika, Battler and Kanon to play with.
But Dlanor said that Erika herself fixed the chainlock and you agreed that Erika can't be Battler or Kanon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Um, well, three people were in that room at some point. Just sayin'.
see above.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Jessica was outside the room. She was suspicious of Kanon, who had slipped away (he was able to escape being in the room at the time of sealing through some name trick, so he was never there). Kanon went to the mansion to kill Battler and Jessica followed. He couldn't find him in the room, so he set up the bathroom trap. Battler slipped out of the closet and confronted Kanon and was attacked. In a struggle, Kanon was mortally wounded, and Battler escaped. Kanon re-set the chain lock and hid in the closet, where he died. Jessica, as "Erika," broke into the room, couldn't find Battler, discovered the bathroom trap, then opened the closet and found Kanon's corpse inside. All of this was concealed from Meta-Erika by pretending that "Erika" had accomplished some synthesis of Kanon and Jessica's actions, just like the Beatrice magic scenes in ep2.
Funny, that made a lot of sense. Kanon is mortally wounded and locks himself in the room and he hide in the closet. With a Battler running around who is most likely to tell everyone what happened and bring them on the room.

But let me say it doesn't work with the reds. You see when the time was stopped (and it never resumed not even after Beatrice came into play),

The chain lock is still locked
Ushiromiya Battler does not exist inside the guest room. …That’s including the closet, with no exceptions whatsoever.

You need to present a situation where in the end you have
Battler outside
two people that entred inside (Erika and Kanon)
The chainlock fixed and locked

Your reconstruction is therefore denied.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Battler was aware - per his own internal reasoning - that Kanon could be in the cousins' room. Since he did not understand that Kanon could not be in that room - that is, it was possible for Kanon to be in the room or not be in it - he assumed that's where Kanon was trapped and didn't propose Kanon as a solution to the Logic Error. Clearly, he did not realize that Kanon's location was still unfixed, but Beatrice did. Beatrice isn't the GM, and had no clear way of knowing Kanon's location, yet she produced an effective alternative set of red text that was possible to say (meaning it was possible to make true) and not possible to defeat.
  • Battler, who is the GM, doesn't know something that Beatrice, who is not, does.
  • Battler, who is the GM, doesn't know the First Twilight victims are dead which Erika, who is not, does.
There is no rational way to conclude anything but that Battler does not need to know absolutely everything to GM a game. If Battler had enough knowledge to know every option, either he would have never been trapped in a Logic Error or he would have never been able to escape from it, as Beatrice would've never had any information that Battler didn't also have.
You still fail to understand my logic. At least try.
The Gameboard can be changed at will, you can set a piece wherever you want, but you can change its position at any given time. That however comes with a limitation. You can't make move that go against a red truth, doing that will create a logic error. I am not making up anything here, these are all things that can be seen in EP6.
At the time of Battler and Erika's duel, Kanon was not outside, his piece was inside the neighboring room. However Battler never stated anything in red about his position. That made it possible for Beatrice to change something in the gameboard, she used her own piece and made it so it escaped from the window and went rescuing Battler.

This interpretation is consistent with all that has been shown in the metaworld scenes of EP6, your interpretation is a total mess. Your interpretation puts Erika in even a higher position than Battler himself for what concerns the gameboard knowledge. At least I explain how Erika can know things Battler doesn't because it's all related to things she has done herself. But you claim she can say she has done something she never did and she can use red about them even though she's supposed to be completely blind on what is truly happening in the gameboard.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
So what you are proposing is:
  • When the game was initially played between Bern and Lambda, the scene did not show both Shannon and Kanon. Battler's later assumptions about Shannon and Kanon do not raise any questions on Erika's part. Erika did not find any discrepancies between her view of the game and Battler's.
    OR
  • Erika, the alleged detective, never got to see the actual game she was supposedly the detective in. She finds no problem with this and doesn't question this at all.
    OR
  • Bern and Lambda conspired to hide Shkanon from both Battler and Erika for no apparent reason, yet couldn't count on the possibility of Shkanon as a solution when Beatrice breaks out the Logic Error solution in ep6.
These are awfully bizarre patterns of behavior even for Bernkastel.
First and second, except, Erika wasn't there to witness anything during Battler's replay. and Bern wasn't there at all to help Erika against Beatrice.
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Old 2010-02-20, 07:52   Link #1653
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo
Excluding one place, no one’s body is inside the bedroom.
No one’s body is inside the bathroom.


If you read it literally, if you don't accept the obvious "excluding the searcher's body itself", this means that there is no body in those place.
Is Erika inside the closet with Battler?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo
It's a lot of things that should make you realize it is useless to try to look at the game as if it was a real story. It's fiction. You will never be able to solve this game until you realize it.
Erika is a character in a story, and Battler's game is a third rate mystery novel.
If we're going to argue with reds being taken literally let me add one of the first reds from Dawn.

This is a true story!!

If you read this red literally Umineko can't be a fictional story. Obviously it's referring to something else in some other context, but lets just read it literally and then we can claim that Umineko is a true story. It makes about as much sense as what your saying.

The point is it's solvable mystery. I don't think it really matters if it's meant to be a true story or a fictional one in the Umineko world. You just sound like your throwing around ideas without really thinking about what your saying.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-02-20 at 08:15.
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Old 2010-02-20, 08:37   Link #1654
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Renall, you said it was Battler's thoughts. that's not Battler's thought, and it is highly speculative. And why you suddenly consider something non-red to be so determinant in this case, but at the same time you don't consider important that Erika said she killed everyone when she was inspecting them?

For the last time it was not a fact it was a speculative sentence! Even LyricalAura accepted that you can't break it apart.
He was willing to say it, whatever that means. You can't deny what happened unless you're suddenly the author now and know what he meant when Battler was willing to say Kanon was in the room, but didn't.
Quote:
Funny, that made a lot of sense. Kanon is mortally wounded and locks himself in the room and he hide in the closet. With a Battler running around who is most likely to tell everyone what happened and bring them on the room.

But let me say it doesn't work with the reds. You see when the time was stopped (and it never resumed not even after Beatrice came into play),

The chain lock is still locked
Ushiromiya Battler does not exist inside the guest room. …That’s including the closet, with no exceptions whatsoever.

You need to present a situation where in the end you have
Battler outside
two people that entred inside (Erika and Kanon)
The chainlock fixed and locked

Your reconstruction is therefore denied.
You're not the goddamn author, stop snidely denying people like you're some kind of arbiter of this.

Battler is in the room. Kanon enters it. Battler leaves it. Kanon dies. "Erika" enters it. Room is sealed by repair of chain lock.
OR
Battler is in the room. Kanon enters it. "Erika" enters it. Room is sealed by repair of chain lock. Battler leaves. Kanon dies.

You now have a room that meets those exact qualifications; Battler isn't in it, Erika is, the room is sealed, and Kanon doesn't exist in it (except a body exists in one place, the closet).
Quote:
You still fail to understand my logic. At least try.
The Gameboard can be changed at will, you can set a piece wherever you want, but you can change its position at any given time. That however comes with a limitation. You can't make move that go against a red truth, doing that will create a logic error. I am not making up anything here, these are all things that can be seen in EP6.
At the time of Battler and Erika's duel, Kanon was not outside, his piece was inside the neighboring room. However Battler never stated anything in red about his position. That made it possible for Beatrice to change something in the gameboard, she used her own piece and made it so it escaped from the window and went rescuing Battler.

This interpretation is consistent with all that has been shown in the metaworld scenes of EP6, your interpretation is a total mess. Your interpretation puts Erika in even a higher position than Battler himself for what concerns the gameboard knowledge. At least I explain how Erika can know things Battler doesn't because it's all related to things she has done herself. But you claim she can say she has done something she never did and she can use red about them even though she's supposed to be completely blind on what is truly happening in the gameboard.
I'll just say I disagree with you about how red works and I believe LyricalAura is correct and you're flat-out mistaken.
Quote:
First and second, except, Erika wasn't there to witness anything during Battler's replay. and Bern wasn't there at all to help Erika against Beatrice.
Christ. Try harder.
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Old 2010-02-20, 08:48   Link #1655
Koi
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Indonesia
...
Hold on...
If the logic error happened because no one can find Battler... or know how he disappeared... It's weird...
I mean, Battler is now on the witch side, right?
His unknown whereabout should be Erika's failure. He should have just said, I disappeared into thin air, and Erika would chew her nails...
And Beato's method of saving him is by claiming Kanon saved him?
And Kanon disappeared into thin air? from the closet?
It's very... uh... circle-y?
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Old 2010-02-20, 09:16   Link #1656
Judoh
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Join Date: Jan 2010
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Yeah I'm honestly starting to get disoriented by Ryukishi's weird writing. I don't get what the intention behind making such a weird paradox was. It almost seems like it was intended create this kind of circle jerk.

I'm kind of suspicious of the moments in these core arcs where a lot of the reds have to do with checking where people do and do not exist. But I don't think these games are meant to make sense. They're solvable, but it seems the further you go in the further the writer intends to disorient the reader so that he can't think anymore. It's a weird kind of mystery that seems more like a psychological thriller or some kind of weird interactive meta fiction.

Maybe we should start speculating on what the true nature of the meta world is.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-02-20 at 09:31.
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Old 2010-02-20, 09:44   Link #1657
Raneh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koi View Post
...
Hold on...
If the logic error happened because no one can find Battler... or know how he disappeared... It's weird...
I mean, Battler is now on the witch side, right?
His unknown whereabout should be Erika's failure. He should have just said, I disappeared into thin air, and Erika would chew her nails...
And Beato's method of saving him is by claiming Kanon saved him?
And Kanon disappeared into thin air? from the closet?
It's very... uh... circle-y?
Beatrice always used humans and human tricks to make it look like it was magic. Battler is trying to recreate the same kind of situations where it looks like it was done with magic, Erika is trying to find out the human trick(or at least Battler thought she would do that). However, when the logic error was constructed there was no possible human trick that could produce the result and thus Battler failed. We all know the culprit is not an unnatural entity, don't we? Lambda is there to confirm that a realistic solution exists for the human side, like it always did in Beatrice's games.
Briefly, Battler is trying execute the game using humans, making it look like it was a witch's doing. He's not using magic or trying to prove that it exists.
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Old 2010-02-20, 10:15   Link #1658
Koi
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Indonesia
uh huh...
okay... I get until the point where there's no possible human method...
So, how come Beato managed to solve the error by claiming Kanon disappeared with magic?
I thought Battler only supposed to make scenarios, Erika solve them.
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Old 2010-02-20, 11:16   Link #1659
LyricalAura
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koi View Post
uh huh...
okay... I get until the point where there's no possible human method...
So, how come Beato managed to solve the error by claiming Kanon disappeared with magic?
I thought Battler only supposed to make scenarios, Erika solve them.
Battler wasn't able to demonstrate to Lambda that he actually had a solution, which is why the logic error occurred. Later, Beato thought of a loophole that Battler missed, and presented that as a solution to Lambda, so the error was resolved. Once the witch comes up with a human solution, she can tell the detective any magic nonsense she likes, as long as she doesn't contradict her human solution in red. In other words, we know Beato came up with something, but only Lambda knows what it is right now.

In the first four games, Lambda also verified that Beato never triggered a logic error. Battler just didn't know about it.
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Old 2010-02-20, 11:33   Link #1660
PBsaffran
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I'll just stop coming here...

Last edited by PBsaffran; 2010-02-20 at 11:44. Reason: I'm talking rubbish...
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