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Old 2010-02-20, 13:11   Link #1661
Axilios
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If we're going to argue with reds being taken literally let me add one of the first reds from Dawn.

This is a true story!!
Wasn't it from Maria, when she was "fighting" with Erika because she did no believed what Maria was saying about Beatrice?


Anyway if we compare this board to the other game boards before, for me it is clear that something went wrong in the rules themselves. Even Lambda tried to make a story which had a sense. Here no, and moreover someone screwed the rules.

Quote:
He was willing to say it, whatever that means. You can't deny what happened unless you're suddenly the author now and know what he meant when Battler was willing to say Kanon was in the room, but didn't.
If we turn the chessboard around, even without Battler who was willing to say it. On an higher level, why would even Ryukishi put this here IF it was useless?
Except for creating a huge ambiguity.

Especially when everyone who approves Shkannon are insisting on the difficulty level, "there are only answers now".

Well, it may be good to take EVERY parts of the white text in that case, not only the more convenients.


Aside, even if Shkannon WAS true, if we follow the story, I still dont get the

Quote:
The rescuer is defined as the person who reset the chain lock after Battler unset it. Let us set aside the question of whether the rescue was intentional.
Kanon was bored so he went in Battler's room to die, for fun?
Red is dangerous for the witch side according to Battler himself, so saying more than needed is stupid.


Quote:
His unknown whereabout should be Erika's failure. He should have just said, I disappeared into thin air, and Erika would chew her nails...

My impression while I was reading ep6 was that Battler was playing in the witch side like he was playing in the detective side. Which obviously can only cause an epic fail. Even Kanon said something like this to Beato in the end.


Well, ep6 is still funny on some points. For exemple, no red about Kinzo. The only other game where it was the case was... the second. Sooo surprising. I should read this one again, just in case.


Personally I am still confused about some red texts. Especially because of ryukishi's interviews, the differences between "red text", red truth", "red", the human's red, and the "I" used in Beato's first red.
Since ep5 it is really a mess.



By the way, if Shkannon is true, how is the "There is 5 master key, each servant have only one of them" supposed to work? Concretely, one of the servants would possess two keys. Or even without this.
Kanon/Shannon would not exist during a time, so it would be impossible for them to possess a key, so their key would not count in the "the only keys", and the final number would be 4, not 5.
Well, I suppose that I'm not very clear, sorry.
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Old 2010-02-20, 15:14   Link #1662
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Originally Posted by Axilios View Post
Wasn't it from Maria, when she was "fighting" with Erika because she did no believed what Maria was saying about Beatrice?
I believe so. Maria could have been referring to something in-story as a "true story" and it very well could have been true that she met a "Beatrice."
Quote:
Anyway if we compare this board to the other game boards before, for me it is clear that something went wrong in the rules themselves. Even Lambda tried to make a story which had a sense. Here no, and moreover someone screwed the rules.
I think it makes sense until Erika starts playing unfairly to intentionally kill Battler. It's honestly one of the less complicated episodes before that point in terms of what happens on the board.
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If we turn the chessboard around, even without Battler who was willing to say it. On an higher level, why would even Ryukishi put this here IF it was useless?
Except for creating a huge ambiguity.
Exactly. The mere fact that Battler could have said Kanon was in the room, and was planning to, but instead said "all other people" when Erika asked him to, raises a bunch of questions. Why was he willing to say it if Kanon wasn't there (or per LA's theory, might not have been there)? Why did he accept Erika's phrasing if he didn't have a plan to deal with it? Why did Erika insist on it if it would have been vastly advantageous to her if Battler had given his census as he intended to do?

What was Erika trying to learn from that phrasing? Was she suspicious of something?

Why would Battler make a move that gives him a loophole and then not notice it or use it? Could Battler have been trying to force a Logic Error on purpose? Why in the world would he do such a thing? (SEE BELOW)
Quote:
Kanon was bored so he went in Battler's room to die, for fun?
Red is dangerous for the witch side according to Battler himself, so saying more than needed is stupid.
Again, I've proposed an obvious possibility: Kanon went to the room to kill Battler. This would permit Battler to kill him in self-defense, or Erika/"Erika" to kill him.

Obviously, if Kanon went to the room, there had to be a reason for it. The only particularly logical reasons are that he believed Battler's life was in danger and wanted to save him, or he was going to kill Battler himself. In the first instance, why did he know Battler was in danger? Why did he know Battler was alive? Why did he know the other victims weren't? Why did he think Erika (or "Erika") posed a threat to Battler? Why did he bother keeping the chain lock seal intact if he was just there to get Battler out? Why did he reset the chain lock? If his corpse is in the room, why did he go into the closet to die, or why did Battler put his corpse there?

The second instance is much clearer. All we need is a motive for Kanon to kill Battler. Sadly, I don't really have one that isn't idle speculation.
Quote:
My impression while I was reading ep6 was that Battler was playing in the witch side like he was playing in the detective side. Which obviously can only cause an epic fail. Even Kanon said something like this to Beato in the end.
Perhaps. He certainly tried to play it up more like ep1 or ep5 than ep2-4.
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Well, ep6 is still funny on some points. For exemple, no red about Kinzo. The only other game where it was the case was... the second. Sooo surprising. I should read this one again, just in case.
I get the unfortunate sense that Ryukishi has all but forgotten about Kinzo after ep4 and 5. I hope that's not the case, there's still a lot that old bastard has hidden away.
Quote:
By the way, if Shkannon is true, how is the "There is 5 master key, each servant have only one of them" supposed to work? Concretely, one of the servants would possess two keys. Or even without this.
Kanon/Shannon would not exist during a time, so it would be impossible for them to possess a key, so their key would not count in the "the only keys", and the final number would be 4, not 5.
Well, I suppose that I'm not very clear, sorry.
The explanation I have seen is that either one servant had two keys (which some people say is forbidden in the original Japanese), or that Shkanon wasn't dead when found as Shannon, went to the chapel as Kanon with a separate master key, then at some point and for some reason returned to the parlor as Shannon, all without being noticed.

Don't ask me.

EDIT: Do you think Battler knowingly allowed a Logic Error to occur while leaving a loophole to be found by Beatrice in an attempt to obtain his miracle? Was this about Erika at all? Could Battler possibly be that devious?

Last edited by Renall; 2010-02-20 at 15:24.
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Old 2010-02-20, 15:21   Link #1663
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By the way, if Shkannon is true, how is the "There is 5 master key, each servant have only one of them" supposed to work? Concretely, one of the servants would possess two keys. Or even without this.
Kanon/Shannon would not exist during a time, so it would be impossible for them to possess a key, so their key would not count in the "the only keys", and the final number would be 4, not 5.
Well, I suppose that I'm not very clear, sorry.
That was already questioned and answered with something along following lines
Kanon and Shannon are while sharing the same body different personalities and therefore different servants.
Means Shkanon has two keys.
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Old 2010-02-20, 15:43   Link #1664
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I think that Shkannon doesn't work. It's most likely a huge a red herring that Ryukishi deliberately created. If Shkannon were true Ryukishi would've never said that this puzzle in episode 6 was supposed to be one of the hardest of them all. Shkannon is just too obvious and makes the riddle seem easy, but this puzzle is meant to be something you have to think hard about and you don't have to think hard to use Shkannon. It's a theory that's existed for a long time, and you can just turn back to it when you don't want to think hard. That's just my opinion of course, and I have nothing to back it up...
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Old 2010-02-20, 15:54   Link #1665
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Let's not forget that this is the 6th game, one of the core arcs and possibly the second to last game of Umineko. Ryukishi said that in Chiru he would release the answers in a way that the people who know it get confirmation that they are right. Ep6 really looks like a confirmation of Shkannon theory.
I'm not saying that this is the only correct answer, just that he isn't necessarily trying to lead the readers astray that much anymore and actually give some very good hints like this.
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Old 2010-02-20, 15:59   Link #1666
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Well, it doesn't change the fact that Shannon/Kanon would have "two keys in her/his pocket", so to say. Even if " only one of which is held by each servant"...
It depends of how you understand "held". But to me, it is really contradictory.

@Judoh: I think the same, but for different reasons.
For me it is mainly because Ryukishi said in an interview that he don't want to give clear answers like in higurashi. And Shkannon is obviously a "clear answer" to a lot of things, even if it don't resolve everything...

@Raneh: He said that he want to give a hint to the people who don't have "the truth", but also want to give a "confirmation" to the other people. Actually, Shkannon is not even a hint, it is an obvious answer. But the trial could be a hint for something else, for exemple.
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Old 2010-02-20, 16:04   Link #1667
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Let's not forget that this is the 6th game, one of the core arcs and possibly the second to last game of Umineko. Ryukishi said that in Chiru he would release the answers in a way that the people who know it get confirmation that they are right. Ep6 really looks like a confirmation of Shkannon theory.
I'm not saying that this is the only correct answer, just that he isn't necessarily trying to lead the readers astray that much anymore and actually give some very good hints like this.
Ryukishi said that only those who understand Umineko would get it but honestly I think every idiot could have figure out Kshannon after this episode. It is nothing only those who understand get but someting blatant "obvious" which, if you look at this thread for example, caused a lot of confusion (contraticting reds, a lot of problems in the setup)...funny thing is that Ryukishi said that those who don't understand would be confused...
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Old 2010-02-20, 16:31   Link #1668
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...funny thing is that Ryukishi said that those who don't understand would be confused...

Another funny thing about the part of "land of the golden witch" in ep6 is that:

Quote:
Is this content deeply related to solving the crimes?

Ryuukishi: I think people who have found the "answer" probably won't have any problems. I wonder if they've realized it's a trick...... It's a very dirty trick.

To put it another way, is it possible to reach the truth of the crime if you haven't noticed this trick?

Ryuukishi: That's hard to say. If you don't see through the part from "Land of the golden witch", you definitely won't be able to reach several vital answers.
However, that content was never really necessary in the first place, so you can reach the truth of the crime with it or without it. Still, it's just so venomous that there's a chance you'll be totally confused. Depending on the situation, it's likely to cause a certain misunderstanding.
Well, I don't know if it is related to Shkannon somehow, but in any case it looks clearly adapted for ep6.
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Old 2010-02-20, 16:51   Link #1669
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This is only part of the interview right? Can you link me to the entire thing?

never mind found it

source

Quote:
Another New Ryukishi Interview
...with even more delicious EP5 spoilers! xD Not a full translation, but chronotrig of AnimeSuki and Witch Hunt has once again done us a HUGE favor and provided info on the gist of it. Some stuff about EP6, what is solvable so far, and some info on what could have been EP3, "Land of the Golden Witch", and what elements from it are in EP5 and EP6.

[original post]

On EP6:
As the leader of the witch side, Battler will be forced to continue the serial murders. So he must carry out 13 murders using the game pieces. If he can create a crime that follows the rules of Beatrice's game board and is seen by Lambadelta and Bernkastel, they'll be able to confirm that he understands this world, and the game will be over.

Ryuukishi, jokingly, said that he might even end with EP6...but he also said that ending on either EP7 or EP9 would even be possible as well. In other words, "no comment"

What is Solvable:
It is possible to solve the "who dunnit", "why dunnit", and "how dunnit" for up to EP4 at least, but this is from Ryuukishi's perspective. Just because it would be possible for him doesn't mean that it will be possible for all the readers, coming from their own perspectives.

Some people have already solved about 98% of the epitaph. For the rest, you'd need to be on the actual island. However, if the people who have solved 98% went to Rokkenjima, they would be able to solve the rest in about an hour.

Several people have already guessed the true location of the gold.

In both EP6 and EP7, the full process of solving the epitaph's riddle will be revealed. You'll hear about it bit by bit from characters in the game.

In EP5, the game stopped shortly after Hideyoshi's corspe was discovered, but people who know the "answer" should be able to predict what happens next in the second twilight and beyond.

Gold Text:
If you know the "answer", you should be able to understand what gold text is, what conditions it can be used in, and whether it's stronger than red text or not.


If someone knows the answer of the game, they can use the gold even if they aren't the Game Master.

Erika does not know the truth, but Lambdadelta can probably still use the gold.

Other Stuff:
Beato managed to communicate everything she wanted to Battler at the end of EP4.


Episode 6 will probably focus more on 'story' than 'mystery'

What would have been "Land of the Golden Witch":
People also wonder whether content from "Land of the golden witch", which was removed from EP3, was included in EP5.

Ryuukishi: I definitely can't tell you that! It's true that the most vital part of "Land of the golden witch" is in there, but it's such a terrifying bit. Furthermore, it's something that neither Battler nor Erika nor Bernkastel has ever brought up in discussion. Maybe they didn't even realize that it was a riddle. Well, you'll probably find out soon. In EP6, a huge bit of red text info will appear regarding this point......according to the current plan.

How many players have noticed what this content is so far?

Ryuukishi: Zero. ...Well, I'd like to say that, but I can't. This content is extremely venomous. Very powerful.

Is this content deeply related to solving the crimes?

Ryuukishi: I think people who have found the "answer" probably won't have any problems. I wonder if they've realized it's a trick...... It's a very dirty trick.

To put it another way, is it possible to reach the truth of the crime if you haven't noticed this trick?

Ryuukishi: That's hard to say. If you don't see through the part from "Land of the golden witch", you definitely won't be able to reach several vital answers.
However, that content was never really necessary in the first place, so you can reach the truth of the crime with it or without it. Still, it's just so venomous that there's a chance you'll be totally confused. Depending on the situation, it's likely to cause a certain misunderstanding.

---

So, thoughts? I'm pretty happy EP6 will focus more on the gameboard than the meta-world- after the Natsuhi development we got in EP5, I'm hoping for more, particularly on Hideyoshi and Kyrie.
Huh This is exactly what I had thought... if you know the answer than you can use the gold...

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-02-20 at 17:05.
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Old 2010-02-20, 17:37   Link #1670
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A question asked before, but I asked it here again so that we can read sth other than "Logic error": Big-sis-Beatrice could use gold, why? And what did it mean to the mystery?
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Old 2010-02-20, 17:47   Link #1671
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
A question asked before, but I asked it here again so that we can read sth other than "Logic error": Big-sis-Beatrice could use gold, why? And what did it mean to the mystery?
This is in a certain sense an example of asking the wrong question. The better question is, what is gold? How can you use it? If you know what it is, understanding why Sis-Beato can use it would probably be simple, as it doesn't appear to be a particularly major use of gold.

That said, it's a recursive problem, as her statement is undoubtedly a hint as to what gold is.

So... no idea, really.
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Old 2010-02-20, 18:06   Link #1672
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
A question asked before, but I asked it here again so that we can read sth other than "Logic error": Big-sis-Beatrice could use gold, why? And what did it mean to the mystery?
The golds texts Battler and Beatrice use are very different...


I guarantee that this corpse is Ushiromiya Kinzo's corpse...!!

Using magic, you created a golden rose petal underneath the cup. It was a magnificent display of magic.

Originally I thought to use the gold you had to have the title of game master or you had to know the answer, but with Ryukishi's statement that Lambda can use the gold I'm not exactly sure. I think the gold has to be something that is observed though. So while the reason you can use the red is because your setting up what is possible and impossible for the human side to deduce. The gold is probably inferior sometimes because you have to see something to use it.

Ryukishi said that a good metaphor for the red though was that it's like the word of god so maybe we can look at the different texts as different points of view.

Red: The word of the witch. Like the word of god it's a statement that is simply the truth without evidence there is no need to question it. At the same time it is open to several interpretations and can create many different sects in thinking.

Blue: The word of the athiest. It finds a way to deny or dodge a red claim, by claiming lack of information or adding information that wasn't available before.

Gold: The neutral word. Kind of like agnosticism the point of view of the gold knows the truth, but it requires an observation of some kind of thing or event to be used. It can see and play both sides and can be inferior in some circumstances particularly if whats observed contradicts a red statement or if the observation used to create the truth is trivial and unimportant.
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Old 2010-02-20, 18:42   Link #1673
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This is probably important. The subject of the gold truth seems to be repeated twice. In episode 5 Battler repeats the word "corpse" referring to Ushiromiya Kinzo's corpse. In episode 6 the word repeated twice is "magic" with an event involving a golden rose petal and a cup... So I think the important part is not the interpretation, but the subject.

Actually that's kind of interesting because in Japanese when your having a conversation when you say what the subject is the person your talking to usually assumes that anything after that refers to that same subject. So it's not necessary to refer to the same subject twice in the same sentence. and yet they do. Say maybe that's a rule for how you use the gold truth...
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Old 2010-02-20, 20:00   Link #1674
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Personally, without going into deep explainations, I see the golden truth as the "rules of the game". Just like what Dlanor was saying in ep5;

Quote:
By the way, there exist many wonderful mysteries in which hidden doors appear, and where hidden doors are the theme.

......Of course, this is limited to novels which have the 'premise' that hidden doors exist.
If that 'premise' doesn't exist, hidden doors must not exist.
So because that 'premise' doesn't exist, there is no need to search for hidden doors.
Magic have the right to exist this game; it is even needed, so the human side can fight against it.
Kinzo's body is decided to be this corpse in the rules of the game.

It is sometimes weaker than red truth, because it accepts magic.
it is sometimes stronger than red truth, because it is considered as a fact and can't be denied (even if I don't see why the devil's proof can not be efficient here)

About this point, am I the only one who find strange the fact that the siestas are firing GOLDEN arrows?

Last edited by Axilios; 2010-02-20 at 20:34.
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Old 2010-02-20, 20:24   Link #1675
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Oooo!
I get it... The incompetent Battler can't even figured how his piece managed to escape...
okay... so... Beato kinda enlightened him... hmm... reasonable...

So, anyone can fill me in for the tea party? Like, the summary?
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Old 2010-02-20, 20:37   Link #1676
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Just thought I'd I'd add my 2 cents while I'm working on the Asumu theory.


When Battler used the red truth to confirm the location of everyone, Kanon was in the cousins’ room.

After Battler used that red truth to confirm their locations he asked Erika if they should advance the game now.
所在確認は、これで充分のはずだ。……ゲームを進めてもらおうか。

Erika agreed to advancing the game and then called Dlanor.
えぇ、そうします。ドラノぉおおおおル!!

After Erika called Dlanor she then sealed the rooms.

After Battler confirmed everyone’s whereabouts and before Dlanor sealed the cousins’ room Kanon was able to escape. The game was not suspended during the entire time because Erika confirmed with Battler to advance the game before Dlanor sealed the rooms. No name trick is needed for Kanon to have escaped from the cousins’ room. He escaped through the the window in a normal way.

The cousins’ room was confirmed to be a closed room right up to the very end. That time period is between the time after Dlanor sealed the room to the time of the very end of the game.

I went back and double checked this.
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Old 2010-02-20, 20:55   Link #1677
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your absolutely sure this works?... Why didn't anybody think of it in the game then? And what would motivate Kanon to jump out the window?
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Old 2010-02-20, 21:00   Link #1678
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your absolutely sure this works?... Why didn't anybody think of it in the game then? And what would motivate Kanon to jump out the window?
I'm sure about it that's why I commented that I went back and double checked.

Regarding motive... I could answer that but that would require me to bring my entire mastermind theory into the thread so I'll leave it you.
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Old 2010-02-20, 21:59   Link #1679
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I want to assume for the moment that isn't true, because I'm curious about something that doesn't make sense to me. Battler and Erika's gameplay strategies in declaring the closed room don't seem to, for lack of a better expression, help their plans. If indeed their plans are as they appear to be, anyway. Let me try to break down why I find this weird.

Game Strategies

Battler's Strategy: As I understand it, Battler's stated goal is to produce a game which Erika cannot solve. The standard "possible with human tricks, but impossible to disprove witches" thing. He seems to have as an ulterior motive defeating Erika for good, whatever that means in a meta-world sense.

Erika's Strategy: Erika's strategy clearly is to abuse her position in the game and lack of detective authority to force Battler into a situation where he must either leave his piece self vulnerable to being killed or put his meta-self into a Logic Error. The entire Logic Error can be avoided if Battler admits he can't have left the room, but that puts him in Erika's clutches, and weakens the quality of his game.

Logically, Battler's objective should be to evade the Logic Error and Erika's should be to cause it. However, it advantages Battler to make the evasion seem impossible, as this allows him to defeat Erika. But of course the evasion can't be actually impossible.

If we assume this is true, then Erika should never take a move which is disadvantageous to her ultimate goal, and Battler should welcome any move which appears to be restrictive but actually isn't.

The sealing of the neighboring room seems to more or less fit this. Battler can permit one room to be completely sealed if he wants, as long as he leaves some room elsewhere to wiggle out. And from his perspective, he still has the other FT victims (if he doesn't really know what Erika's doing and is pretending not to, more on that later). So it doesn't matter that he gives a complete census of the people in the room by name. It also suits Erika's purposes, because as long as the seal isn't broken in that room, the people in it can't do anything.

The Anomalous Move

The problem comes when we get to the cousins' room. Neither Battler nor Erika acts in a fashion which seems to conform with their strategies.

Erika asks Battler to state that "all other people" are in the cousins' room. At this point there are eleven people placed in red (the six FT victims and the five in the neighboring room). Excluding Kinzo and Erika, that leaves five more people. If Battler places them here, everyone on the island except her is trapped in a sealed room (or dead). This is a perfect move for her. It makes it completely impossible for anyone but a Person X to rescue Battler, and it seems highly unlikely that Battler or Erika would resort to such a claim (and Erika could easily destroy it).

But that's not what Erika asks Battler to do. She asks him to say "all other people." While this does eliminate any possibility of a Person X (they'd have to be in the cousins' room), not naming the room's occupants is a potential loophole. Erika may not see how, but it still leaves open the possibility.

What's even odder is that Battler is uneasy about declaring this, and that he was willing to give Erika a full accounting of everyone in the room. That doesn't make sense, though; he's leaving himself vulnerable if he forces Battler's rescue to fall upon the other First Twilight victims. Even if he doesn't know of any particular loopholes, it's much more advantageous to him to go along with Erika's proposed acknowledgment. She clearly thinks, or appears to think, that saying this is superior to a complete list. Let her think that!

So Erika makes this move, which ends up defeating her entire plan. And Battler accepts it, even though he was willing to put himself in a seemingly inescapable situation. If we assume Battler and Erika would not willingly work against their own objectives, this move is seriously difficult to explain.

Possible Explanations: Erika

I don't think the Logic Error alone determined Erika's move. There's the entire thing with splitting the survivors into two rooms even though she only has three seals. It would be more versatile to put all the survivors in a single room and seal it, then seal Battler's room, and potentially have another room available for sealing. However, she very pointedly splits everyone and Battler finds this questionable. Erika's explanation is somewhat dodgy and unsatisfactory.

I suspect that Erika has a belief or suspicion that someone isn't who they appear. Maybe she suspects Shkanon, maybe something else. If she asks Battler to give the names of every person in both rooms, that would immediately prove her suspicion (or disprove it). Either Battler will be able to separate the two groups entirely with red, or he won't be able to say the name of somebody in the cousins' room who has already been placed in the neighboring room.

So why doesn't she ask for this outright? What does she gain from leaving this possible information hidden? And how does it help her trap Battler?

I think maybe she suspected a Shkanon or similar situation wherein she wanted Battler to claim Kanon had left even though Shannon was in a different, sealed room. But this still doesn't make sense, as it was Kanon's room with the perfect seal and Shannon's room with the window problem. So she really wouldn't be advantaging herself at all with this.

So the questions here are:
  • Why did Erika split the survivors the way she did?
  • What was her goal beyond simply trapping Battler?
  • How did asking Battler to say "all other people" help her accomplish this?
Possible Explanations: Battler

Explaining Battler's actions depends on whether you believe in an Idiot Battler or Genius Battler. Battler has proved himself to be both on different occasions. In ep6 it appears he bumbles headlong into an obvious Logic Error even though a solution did exist. Why didn't he see it? How could Beatrice find it if he couldn't?

Idiot Battler: Battler was uneasy because he couldn't understand Erika's ulterior motive. Whatever it was, he fell for it. He assumed that it didn't matter who was trapped in the rooms or how the text trapped them since the other First Twilight victims could rescue him from any problems. He wasn't aware that they were already dead and didn't know the "Kanon loophole," whatever it was.

You can see why I find this increasingly implausible. Even when Battler is at his dumbest, can we really assume he would smugly make a move like this and then plunge headlong into a Logic Error, eliminating all his opportunities to back off when the situation was increasingly helpless for him? I suppose it is entirely possible, but I don't understand how he can "understand the truth" and fail to realize the FT victims were dead or that there was a loophole that allowed Kanon to rescue him. So let's put on our tinfoil hats and pretend Battler is a goddamn mastermind:

Genius Battler: Battler was already aware of the "Kanon loophole" and that the FT victims were (or may have been) dead. He faked uneasiness about Erika's suggestion to ensure that she made it, then proceeded to intentionally eliminate his options and force the Logic Error (he does mention his own plan being insane). He pretends to attempt to "escape" it to fool Erika, who will become increasingly overconfident when she starts "winning." Once Battler is trapped in the Logic Error, Beatrice goes hardcore and miraculously is able to find the "Kanon loophole," rescue him, and trap Erika.

I would submit that this sort of insane theory proposes Battler believed the only way the miracle he wanted with Beatrice could occur is if he was in apparent mortal danger. Placing himself in a Logic Error with a gloating Erika and Bernkastel is basically the only way he can do this in the meta-world. By endangering himself he takes an insane risk, and the payoff is a miracle; this is basically Kinzo's gamble, and ep6 is the episode where Battler comes the closest to acting like Kinzo. In other words, Battler trolled everybody. And it worked.
Renall is offline  
Old 2010-02-20, 22:32   Link #1680
Isekaijin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
We're talking about the same Battler who was crying in EP 3 after seeing the battle between Beato and Virgilia, screaming "It's useless!" or something like that, right?

They grow so fast nowdays.
Isekaijin is offline  
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