AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-03-13, 08:05   Link #1801
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Yeah, but someone else could do it, and as long as Erika was somehow able to piggyback onto their perspective, she should be able to claim it on behalf of the person who did it. She may not even be aware that it wasn't her, or through the red-sets-the-truth-but-can-be-clarified hypothesis, it could have initially been her, then shifted to an "Erika" perspective once she was doubted out of existence on the board.

That aside, I suspect your interepretation is not entirely correct, but of course I can't really analyze it myself. It doesn't even particularly square with previous red or red used in other circumstances by Erika, so I'm inclined to think there's a nuance missing.

And it's not like human certainty is needed to assert red. That's an option for humans, but the entire point in question is whether Erika is truly a human in the form we understand her to be. You can't assume from the start that Erika is a living, existent human on the board if the entire point is to analyze it from the perspective that she isn't. Of course, you can also analyze it from the perspective that she is, not saying that you can't. But that's a different analysis. If she's not really human, then what was the purpose of this sudden rule about how humans can approach red? There are several possibilities, but they aren't necessarily very well-developed at this point. I'd be inclined to start from "red herring" and move on to "true, but not entirely exclusive to the piece of the observer as long as they're being observed in some proper fashion."

Erika shouldn't even be able to direct her piece in that manner, so something's already awfully suspicious about the entire thing.

And again, I think you're too hung up on this "I did this" stuff. Beatrice has done it before and it wasn't true then. Yes, she didn't directly claim in red "I killed these people." But I don't think it's too huge a stretch. Others have claimed, in white moreso than red admittedly, to have accomplished various acts. In addition, never once does the red say "Erika" did it. There are two uses of "I" and one use of "she." So we can't even use the "names refer to the persons themselves" here if that's accurate, as Erika isn't even mentioned. Unless the translation messed up on that.
It wasn't meant to be a critic of the Erika doesn't exist theory.
Let's suppose that there is a piece-Erika (who is actually someone among the 17) which is directly controlled by Erika, that's okay, but it is necessary that it was that specific person who did the killing and not some random people.

There is absolutely no way for meta-Erika to reach red about something that happened on the gameboard with the exception of a death that was caused by her own piece. If you say that Erika-piece then, it's Eva or whatever, that's still fine, but I can't accept that it was someone that is not Erika's piece.

P.S: and BTW I said it before, but you are stating that Beatrice said "I did this" for pieces that weren't herself as if that was proved. I do not acknowledge that. You can believe that is true, but you can't use that as a proof to back another of your arguments.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2010-03-13, 14:56   Link #1802
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
It's proved inasmuch as Meta-Beatrice does not exist on the game board. The best argument that can be raised against it is "yes, but she's only referring to her piece (the board "Beatrice")." In that case, were it true, one would basically have to argue that "Beatrice" is the sole killer and the cause of the disaster at the end of ep4. I find that a bit dubious.
Renall is offline  
Old 2010-03-13, 18:05   Link #1803
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
What kind of Meta-character can be on the gameboard? It has been quite proven that meta-characters have a vessel in the gameboard and that they are basically the same entity just in a different place.
It's like saying that Meta-Battler doesn't exist in the gameboard. But Piece-Battler and Meta-Battler are the same entity.

So basically yes, I argue that whenever "Beatrice" says "I did" she refers to actions made by herself in the gameboard. So what is dubious? And why she has to be the "sole" cause for the Battler's death in EP4? Beatrice just said "I will kill you", but she didn't specify that no one else had any involvement with that.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2010-03-13, 18:14   Link #1804
Nayrael
The Faceless One
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Varaždin, Croatia
Age: 23
Send a message via MSN to Nayrael
Pieces on the gameboard can't do anything that its meta version wouldn't do. Even those who control the pieces can't make the pieces do something that the real person wouldn't.

So it doesn't matter where it is done. What matters is who has done it.
__________________
Nayrael is offline  
Old 2010-03-15, 04:42   Link #1805
ijriims
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
Piece-Beatrice was not having a fixed vessal in all time. She accounted for different murders but murderers differ(death of Eva, Hideyoshi in EP1, death of Rosa, Maria in Ep2, death of Battler in Ep4. All were attributed to Beatrice as murderer, but the real murderer could not be the same person for all these murders).

Better treat Piece-Beatrice as the will of culprit or malice, the embodiment of the rule of gameboard.
__________________
Kýrie, eléison

Battler, you have already known it, right?

Without Love, it cannot be seen.
ijriims is offline  
Old 2010-03-15, 11:46   Link #1806
Ronove
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Hmmm... can someone confirm this:

'Erika killed the 6 people by severing their heads, and at the moment, they were perfectly alive. Perfectly alive means no near-death status.'

If that's so, why would the familiy members fake a death, or were they sleeping and someone put large heavy makeup on their heads and bodies? Or is the 6th Annual Witch's Game for the familiy ._. ?
__________________
Ronove is offline  
Old 2010-03-15, 12:03   Link #1807
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
That's anyone's guess.

My best one, is that it's all going according to Beatrice's plan. We know that Beatrice wanted to create the perfect murder mystery story, maybe she wanted to actually recreate it on the site. How did she get everyone's cooperation can be easily explained if Beatrice can prove that she knows the location of the gold. Considering how the siblings and the spouses are in dire of need of money, they would probably accept to play a "stupid" game if that means they'll get all that load of money in exchange.

The problem now is to explain why in the end everyone really die. Maybe Beatrice herself just told them to fake "death" in order to get their cooperation, but then actually killed them. Or maybe it's another person that is taking advantage of the situation to kill everyone for real.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2010-03-15, 13:03   Link #1808
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Yeah, ep2 makes a very strong suggestion for "Beatrice" seeking people's cooperation. And if many victims are drugged or poisoned, they might be in a trusting situation rather than simply getting attacked (except maybe ep4).

So the basic odds are what Jan-Poo said. Either "Beatrice" uses the ruse of cooperation to get people to let their guard down and then drugs or poisons them to kill them, or "Beatrice" is being honest, does what she says she'll do, and there's another killer involved.

Problem is... that other killer would have to be intimately aware of the plan. By morning, it's usually too late. A "defecting accomplice" as the primary killer might be possible, but something about that strikes me as messed up. It's got problems I can't quite articulate.

It's possible "Beatrice" is the one defecting from the plan of the true mastermind (whoever they are), suggesting "fake" murders to fool the rest of her team. Though it never seems to fool anyone. But maybe not...
Renall is offline  
Old 2010-03-19, 15:17   Link #1809
tcaz2
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Question:

The final red of the Episode, "We're very sorry miss, but even if we welcome you, the number of people is 17."... Does the phrase 'even if' mean the same thing read in Japanese as English?

...Because if so, either Ryuukishi made a horrible mistake (if Shkanon is true), or everyone else is reading it horribly wrong.

Because Battler and Beatrice are quite literally saying "Regardless of if you're on the island or not, the number of people is a constant 17." Because the phrase 'even if' means 'regardless', and any synonyms you can think of for that.

Meaning that with or without Erika, there's always 17... which quite literally means that the only answer to the riddle IS Erika doesn't exist- because the number doesn't increase when she's there.



And yes I'm aware of the Episode 5 red that says "Erika only increases the number by one", etc. But this really does warrant some consideration, because the phrase only has one meaning.
tcaz2 is offline  
Old 2010-03-19, 15:30   Link #1810
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
It's not clear. I'd assume the Japanese is more ambiguous, because that's a central argument I've considered and if you read the red addressing Erika directly it's possible to read it as a +/- 0 situation. If that were true, then it would be the conclusion one would reach. On the other hand, it doesn't explicitly disprove the existence of a 1; that is, it's not impossible for the final red to be read in such a manner that permits her existence.

However, I suspect the Japanese is probably more vague on the matter.
Renall is offline  
Old 2010-03-19, 15:44   Link #1811
Raneh
Storyteller
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Erika not existing is one option, but there are also several others.
One is based on that the word which the number refers to is different.
Erika says 人間(ningen) but Battler&Beato say 人(nin). There are some suggestions that there are 17 physical people but 18 game pieces (/personalities). Kanon and Shannon could count as two pieces but one physical being.

Also there were some theories that said Erika was the 18th person when she arrived but then something happened to one and thus the total count is 17... and one says that she drifted ashore as a corpse and doesn't add up to the other count. But I don't really remember them as I didn't really support them either.

There was big debate on this subject in the game spoilers and speculations topic some time ago.
__________________
Raneh is offline  
Old 2010-03-19, 16:13   Link #1812
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Well I think it's an important hint that the reds say that "the names only refer to actual people". If we go by that people who are never referred to by name in episode 6 are probably the most suspect for not existing or not being on the island. You could even say Erika had Battler say it that way intentionally because she didn't want somebody's name to be referred to. I think it's kind of a cheat to say that "Kanon and Shannon refer to actual people" and that at the same time "they are the same actual person named Sayo". I think that just uses too much word play to be true.
Judoh is offline  
Old 2010-03-19, 16:39   Link #1813
ameskitty
Kupo
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sleeping
Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcaz2 View Post
Question:

The final red of the Episode, "We're very sorry miss, but even if we welcome you, the number of people is 17."... Does the phrase 'even if' mean the same thing read in Japanese as English?

...Because if so, either Ryuukishi made a horrible mistake (if Shkanon is true), or everyone else is reading it horribly wrong.

Because Battler and Beatrice are quite literally saying "Regardless of if you're on the island or not, the number of people is a constant 17." Because the phrase 'even if' means 'regardless', and any synonyms you can think of for that.

Meaning that with or without Erika, there's always 17... which quite literally means that the only answer to the riddle IS Erika doesn't exist- because the number doesn't increase when she's there.



And yes I'm aware of the Episode 5 red that says "Erika only increases the number by one", etc. But this really does warrant some consideration, because the phrase only has one meaning.
You know what, I think you just worded exactly what I was thinking the very first time I read that phrase but have never been able to properly say .

The -ても ending can also be translated "if we were to" (implying ONLY in that case), but...since も is the "also" particle in Japanese (implying BOTH cases), at least from a very technical standpoint, you might be right. Still - if Japanese people believe in the Shkanon theory so much why wouldn't they have caught that? I guess most people don't pay that much attention to strict grammar in their birth language, but you'd think more people would've pointed that out.

I think it's still helpful to wonder why he didn't use -ている (including/welcoming) or something, though.

And as for that red text, people have disagreed with this but I think you can get around that by saying that Lambda didn't specify which count and that Erika only adds to the character count (人間). The way she redirects her answer to Battler kind of implies that she was leaving something out, at least to me.
__________________

Avatar adapted from Yoshitaka Amano art

"There is no such thing as a sexy George." - Rhiannon, Easy A
ameskitty is offline  
Old 2010-03-19, 17:29   Link #1814
tcaz2
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raneh View Post
Erika not existing is one option, but there are also several others.
One is based on that the word which the number refers to is different.
Erika says 人間(ningen) but Battler&Beato say 人(nin). There are some suggestions that there are 17 physical people but 18 game pieces (/personalities). Kanon and Shannon could count as two pieces but one physical being.
Regardless if it's personalities or bodies, Erika would increase the count Battler/Beato said. But they said it's always 17 regardless of Erika. Provided it's read that way, of course.

The other ones you said already are Shkanon denying theories, so...

My point is, if it's read literally that way, Shkanon isn't possible. At all. So I really hope a Japanese speaker can look into it more in-depth.




And to be honest, I'm not sure a lack of noticing it even in Japanese is a valid excuse, because look how many people miss it in English >.>. There could be a faction over there that notices it too.


EDIT: And if it CAN be read another way, I suggest someone fix the commonly accepted translation to be more ambiguous, to reflect that.
tcaz2 is offline  
Old 2010-03-19, 17:58   Link #1815
Ssol
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Here’s the original Japanese again:
ヱリカ:初めまして、こんにちは!探偵ッ、古戸ヱリカと申します!!招かれざる客人ですが、どうか歓迎を!!我こそ は来訪者ッ、六軒島の18人目の人間ッ!!!
戦人とベアト:…………申し訳ないが、そなたを迎えても、17人だ。

Regarding the first line, ending without using the copula desu seems odd if it is supposed to be a very important red truth.
It could have been: 我こそは来訪者ッ、六軒島の18人目の人間です!!! or even 我こそは来訪者ッ、六軒島の18人目の人間でした!!! etc...

Past tense meaning that it may have only referred to the fifth game... Maybe Erika was not able to use present tense for a reason.

Well, I suggest caution to anyone who is absolutely 100 percent convinced that the riddle at the end of episode 6 must be meaningful and it is not just a trick to keep us all guessing.
Spoiler for Ryukishi Interview, post-episode 4:


Episode 6 was mainly about the stories of the characters. Even though Jessica had nothing to do with Kyrie's murder I found some parts of the conversation interesting.

しかし、……霧江の子は死産だった。
Featherine: However, Kyrie’s child was stillbirth.

えぇ。……明日夢さんにはお兄ちゃんが生まれた。……しかしお母さんからは、誰も。
Ange: Yeah, onii-chan was born from Asumu. However, from my mother... no one...

?
__________________
[...]

Last edited by Ssol; 2010-03-19 at 19:29.
Ssol is offline  
Old 2010-03-19, 18:02   Link #1816
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
しかし、……霧江の子は死産だった。
Featherine: However, Kyrie’s child was stillbirth.

えぇ。……明日夢さんにはお兄ちゃんが生まれた。……しかしお母さんからは、誰も。
Ange: Yeah, onii-chan was born from Asumu. However, from my mother... no one...

?
Well I'm hoping for the twist that Battler was actually adopted from the Fukuin house and that Kanon is actually Asumu's son. If Toya Hachijo = Asumu than they have the same hair color so that's a hint.

If that's true Kanon could be jealous of Battler becuase he grew up with his birth parents. He would have a motive similar to Roa Shiki in Tsukihime.

It also explains whey they called both Kanon and Battler by "Kun" throughout the game.

Edit: Then again if it turns out that Kanon and Shannon being non identical twins is true I might have to change my theory a bit to say "Shannon and Battler are twins". XD

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-03-19 at 18:14.
Judoh is offline  
Old 2010-03-19, 18:50   Link #1817
Ssol
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Then again if it turns out that Kanon and Shannon being non identical twins is true I might have to change my theory a bit to say "Shannon and Battler are twins". XD
The only thing thats keeping me from making a twin theory is the line about master of island being 19 years old.

Then again, maybe it's not talking about a person but rather 'Beatrice' was born 19 years ago. Beatrice's portrait was shown but that's a given since Ryukishi is not going to simply show their face.
__________________
[...]
Ssol is offline  
Old 2010-03-19, 18:55   Link #1818
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
The only thing thats keeping me from making a twin theory is the line about master of island being 19 years old.

Then again, maybe it's not talking about a person but rather 'Beatrice' was born 19 years ago. Beatrice's portrait was shown but that's a given since Ryukishi is not going to simply show their face.
I said this before, but as long as the birthday of the person 19 years ago was after October 5, 1967, the child could be 18 years old and yet still be from 19 years ago.
Judoh is offline  
Old 2010-03-19, 19:33   Link #1819
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Basically what I mean is for example if the child's birthday was, "October 6th", 1967 , he wouldn't turn 19 until after the murders occurred, but he would still be born around 19 years ago. That way nobody has to have a hidden age.
Judoh is offline  
Old 2010-03-19, 21:32   Link #1820
tcaz2
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Doesn't it say that 'the master' IS 19 though, not 'they're from 19 years ago'?
tcaz2 is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:42.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
We use Silk.