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Old 2010-06-07, 18:07   Link #1961
Renall
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Given that there have always been deceptions, and that Erika has never seen fit to play fair on any level, I'm not sure why we have to believe Battler would play fair too. He's an honorable person, but he's capable of thinking underhandedly. People just claim he can never act in such a fashion.

Besides, lying to Erika may have been incidental to lying for Beatrice's sake under this theory. It's not Erika's fault she's a pawn.
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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2010-06-07, 18:11   Link #1962
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Given that there have always been deceptions, and that Erika has never seen fit to play fair on any level, I'm not sure why we have to believe Battler would play fair too. He's an honorable person, but he's capable of thinking underhandedly. People just claim he can never act in such a fashion.

Besides, lying to Erika may have been incidental to lying for Beatrice's sake under this theory. It's not Erika's fault she's a pawn.
Battler is capable of not playing fair. The fact that he pretends to see corpses in ep5 and fakes his death in ep6 shows that he can act underhanded. After all the pieces can't do anything they couldn't do.
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Old 2010-06-08, 07:47   Link #1963
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There's a lot of difference between using tricks and deceptions and playing dirty.

If the use of deceptions is part of the rules of the game then there's nothing wrong with using them, provided the other party is well aware they can be used.

But the way you imagine Battler's actions, there wouldn't even be a game. Erika would be just a puppet on Battler's hand, she'd never had any chance to win from the very beginning.

Battler is not the kind of guy that would accept such a "victory", which is clearly proven in EP4 when he refuses to accept Beatrice's initial surrender. Even though he still thought the life of his whole family was at stake there, even though he just witnessed Ange's sacrifice, he still didn't want to exploit Beatrice's lack of will to fight, and urged her to play seriously.


The similar pattern is repeated in EP6 when Battler shows to be strongly against Bern limiting Erika's powers. Which of course you believe to be also part of a great deception. But since it's totally consistent with what Battler did before, isn't it easier to think this is just what Battler does?
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Old 2010-06-08, 19:27   Link #1964
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I disagree with people saying that Battler solved the logic error underhandedly. I think I have solved this locked room mystery.

The first thing to note is that Battler had to have help to escape. His original plan was to call on Natushi, Eva, Kyrie or Rosa to help save him. Erika denied this by killing them before moving on to him, thus creating the logic error. Thus it is apparent to me that Battler needed an accomplice in order to escape.

Now the question is why does Battler need an accomplice to escape? He couldn't have escaped through the window (not that he needed to.) And because of Knox, secret passageways do not exist. Then I came across a realization, what if the entrance was not secret? Rather what if it was something everyone was aware about, but no-one thought about it being used as a passageway? At my public school (I'm in college now) there were these ceiling tiles that covered the electrical cords for the lights and ventilation. Everyone would be aware of them, but no-one would try to go up there save a custodian. What if Kinzo's room had the same structure?

If so, then this gives a valid reason why Kanon was needed in order to escape. I'm not completely sure if this bypasses Knox's Third or not, after all Kinzo spent the most time out of anyone in the room, and it might constitute as secret. But then again Natushi, Krauss and Nanjo have had access to the study ever since he died, and it might have been the first place they tried looking for the gold. Anyways I think this is a valid answer
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Old 2010-06-08, 20:07   Link #1965
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Ha ha ha That's actually kind of clever!. The thing is though I don't think the room he was in was Kinzo's study. Kinzo's room has an auto lock. The room Battler was in was a guestroom with a chain lock. So it's very different.

Other than that the only thing standing in your way for this solution is the interview saying if you have the key that closed room shouldn't be a problem (why should this work for Battler's room if it doesn't for others?), and something Dlanor said.

Quote:
Dlanor: This does not refer to hidden passages that have FORESHADOWING
You have to have foreshadowing for any hidden passage to work. You can't just say everybody knew about it. It needs hints. That shouldn't be a huge problem for you though even the hidden passage for the epitaph solution is only vaguely hinted at.

Just for good measure though. You might have missed this red.

The rescuer is defined as the person who reset the chain lock after Battler unset it. Let us set aside the question of whether the rescue was intentional.
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Old 2010-06-08, 20:20   Link #1966
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Battler isn't in Kinzo's room - he's just in one of the standard guest rooms of the mansion.
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Old 2010-06-08, 20:43   Link #1967
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Sorry that I though he was in Kinzo's room, I assumed it was the case when the multiple areas of the room was brought up.

Finding a reference is going to be difficult. I first discovered Umineko through descriptions when looking for a mystery game. I haven't bought any of the VNs and have been relying on youtube for the episodes as well as some actual game content.

The best bet would be looking at the scenario of the second twilight from game 1 (Eva and Hideyoshi) If I recall correctly, it was the only other room to use the chain instead of the deadbolt. That could have some reference behind it.

The key that Judoh is referring to is the key to the whole mystery right, if so this could be the case. If the area covered the whole floor (no walls intersecting) then it could cover almost every locked room in the series. (Then again I feel this could be a cop out) It also provides a place for Kanon to hide and the bomb to be placed

Finally, that red truth was given in order to ensure that Erika didn't unintentionally rescue Battler. We know that Kanon rescued Battler and therefore we know that Kanon replaced the lock. It could just be that Battler ran to show him the escape route (which could be in the closet) and Kanon reset the lock. I don't really see a problem.
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Old 2010-06-08, 20:50   Link #1968
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The key I'm talking about is a metaphor in one of Ryuskishi's interviews when talking about Battler's escape. It's not a physical item. I'm actually paraphrasing, but he said something along the lines of "I'm sure people have noticed the key, but they haven't brought it back to all of the past games yet".
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Old 2010-06-08, 21:05   Link #1969
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pikajens View Post
Now the question is why does Battler need an accomplice to escape? He couldn't have escaped through the window (not that he needed to.) And because of Knox, secret passageways do not exist. Then I came across a realization, what if the entrance was not secret? Rather what if it was something everyone was aware about, but no-one thought about it being used as a passageway? At my public school (I'm in college now) there were these ceiling tiles that covered the electrical cords for the lights and ventilation. Everyone would be aware of them, but no-one would try to go up there save a custodian.
Erika: I'll say it clearly. There is no exit you can escape from other than this door.

However, taking advantage of Erika's untrustworthy viewpoint, there's another little hole to slip through. At the time Erika searched the guest room, Battler was not on the bed. Furthermore, Erika confirmed that, overlooking one place, he did not exist in the guest room. But where was that one place? She claimed that the one place she didn't search was the closet. But... that's blue text, isn't it?

So for instance, this kind of scenario is possible: The one place Erika didn't "search" was the middle of the room, where Battler was standing in the open talking to her. After they finished, Erika went to the bathroom and Battler left while she was inside. Since Battler was standing in plain sight the whole time, even though it was confirmed that no one was hiding in the bedroom, there is no contradiction.

EDIT:
I'll say more. Kanon was also on his way to meet up with Battler and Erika. However, Erika skillfully talked Battler into leaving and then hid in the bathroom. In this way, she was able to surprise Kanon and kill him when he arrived. This is the real reason Beato refused to repeat that someone was in the closet. Kanon was never in there to begin with!
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Old 2010-06-08, 21:29   Link #1970
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Erika not checking the area right in front of her is a bit stupid. It's also a bit stupid not to realize that someone is dead on the floor in front of you. And if we get into Erika Ball mode the question becomes "Who is Erika" which we can't reach a definite conclusion

Just for clarification I am going to define the area of the house I am referring to as the crawlspace. Also I believe that the red happened at the same time as the logic error, before Battler realized he could call on Kanon.

Here's my blue.
There is only one exit Battler by himself can escape through, and that is the door. However he is able to escape to the crawlspace with Kanon or
Before Kanon arrived (at the time that red was made) Battler could not escape except through the door

I think that defeating this theory is fairly simple, check the number of people that you defines in the red. If the previous blues don't work we could just use this
Battler cannot enter the crawlspace. He let Kanon in, who locked himself in and then proceeded by the crawlspace by himself. Once in the crawlspace he killed himself and no-one could figure out his location after that.
Just to let you know, I really hate myself for stooping to this level as it defeats the purpose of my original theory.
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Old 2010-06-08, 21:54   Link #1971
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I'm not up to date with EP6, but what if a door panel was loose enough at the top or bottom to bend and get Battler's hand around to open the chain? It's not really breaking the rules of a closed room, since you cannot exit or enter through it. There's not much foreshadowing, but when Kyrie was getting shot at in EP4 by the Siestes through the key hole, you could maybe fit the gun into the opening and shoot at her. I don't know, just thinking randomly for loopholes to the closed rooms. There's probably a red in EP6 to deny it....

I was thinking something like this (with crappy ms paint)-


Edit- Ah, I Guess I need to read EP6 then, to many big details I don't really know.
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Old 2010-06-08, 21:59   Link #1972
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The logic error in episode 6 makes it clear that Battler needed someones help to "rescue" him. If Battler could do this by himself, there was no need to call on Kanon. This puzzle must be solved with 2 people in mind. (Three if you count Erika, but she's a culprit.)
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Old 2010-06-08, 22:00   Link #1973
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Originally Posted by Golden Dream View Post
I'm not up to date with EP6, but what if a door panel was loose enough at the top or bottom to bend and get Battler's hand around to open the chain? It's not really breaking the rules of a closed room, since you cannot exit or enter through it. There's not much foreshadowing, but when Kyrie was getting shot at in EP4 by the Siestes through the key hole, you could maybe fit the gun into the opening and shoot at her. I don't know, just thinking randomly for loopholes to the closed rooms. There's probably a red in EP6 to deny it....

I was thinking something like this (with crappy ms paint)-
Actually, Battler tries doing this in one of the creepy room scenes. He sticks his hand out and is able to remove the chain and leave. But then he's pulled back in. Apparently he can leave in that way, but the chain has to be reapplied on the inside.
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Old 2010-06-09, 00:11   Link #1974
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Originally Posted by pikajens View Post
Erika not checking the area right in front of her is a bit stupid. It's also a bit stupid not to realize that someone is dead on the floor in front of you. And if we get into Erika Ball mode the question becomes "Who is Erika" which we can't reach a definite conclusion.
Not checking the closet when looking for somebody is also stupid. Decisions are being made that don't match up to the game's internal logic, though it would be strange for Erika to leave the center of the roomRemember, Erika doesn't have Detective's Authority, so her perspective can decieve her.





One thing that bothers me about Logic Error solutions where Kanon's death is used to explain how he doesn't exist. How come this possibility doesn't occur to Erika? If Kanon's dead body is inside the room how come Erika doesn't use his death to explain how he managed to unexist?
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Old 2010-06-09, 00:52   Link #1975
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J the Drafter View Post
Not checking the closet when looking for somebody is also stupid. Decisions are being made that don't match up to the game's internal logic, though it would be strange for Erika to leave the center of the roomRemember, Erika doesn't have Detective's Authority, so her perspective can decieve her.
The reason I understood that Erika didn't check the closet is because she is trying to trap Battler. She saves that for the last place to look, so she can declare he is inside and win.
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Old 2010-06-09, 01:03   Link #1976
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correct: the problem of demonstrating a point is that if you declare "among A, B, C, X is A", you have to prove it, which can be an endless musical chair game if the GM is simply allowing the possibility that B and C are elligible.

By taking down the other possibilities first, Erika is "proving" her theory with contraposition, exactly how Beato did before, by proving that "no other human" could do X thing, indirectly "proving" something else did it.
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Old 2010-06-09, 02:44   Link #1977
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Does anyone have all the pictures that appears when Beato "solves" the games ? I can't get them all >_<.
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Old 2010-06-09, 07:42   Link #1978
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@pikajens
If Ryukishi has been completely rigorous in his storymaking then your theory shouldn't work.
That's because of Knox 8th.
Remember the time in EP5 when Battler managed to let Kinzo and Beatrice escape from the Kinzo's study. There was one move that Dlanor tried before surrendering. And that move was bringing up Knox 8.

Basically what Dlanor said was: "If there wasn't any mention before about Kinzo's study having multiple rooms, then your blue theory cannot work!"

Of course that move didn't work because such a mention did exist. However it is also clear that if there wasn't such a mention then Dlanor would have destroyed Battler's blue truth.
So if such rules apply everywhere your theory of "there's another unmentioned door" and "there's a crawlspace that wasn't mentioned" or "there's an unmentioned hole in the door", shouldn't work.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Actually, Battler tries doing this in one of the creepy room scenes. He sticks his hand out and is able to remove the chain and leave. But then he's pulled back in. Apparently he can leave in that way, but the chain has to be reapplied on the inside.
Uhm wait... I remember it differently.

-At first he can't remove the chainlock at all, because it's all demonish and stuff.

-Then the chainlock become a normal chainlock and naturally there's no problem removing it from the inside. However as soon as he tries to leave the room another chain appears on his neck. The chain is only length enough to make him make a step outside, but he still can't distance himself from the door. He soon notices that the chain on his neck disappears as soon as the door chainlock is set again.

-Battler uses the wire to make a hook and he tries to use it to set the chainlock back while him being outside the door. This attempt also fails miserably.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
correct: the problem of demonstrating a point is that if you declare "among A, B, C, X is A", you have to prove it, which can be an endless musical chair game if the GM is simply allowing the possibility that B and C are elligible.

By taking down the other possibilities first, Erika is "proving" her theory with contraposition, exactly how Beato did before, by proving that "no other human" could do X thing, indirectly "proving" something else did it.
A better move would have been claiming to not having checked the closet only to later tell that she actually did. Since apparently Erika can do actions without Battler knowing, this should have worked and caused an irreparable logic error.

This of course can only work if these premises are correct:

- there was still no reality set at that time
- Battler created the "battler is inside the closet" fact only after Erika said she didn't check it.

However the story seems to imply that all of the above are true.
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Old 2010-06-09, 08:49   Link #1979
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Erika: I'll say it clearly. There is no exit you can escape from other than this door.

However, taking advantage of Erika's untrustworthy viewpoint, there's another little hole to slip through. At the time Erika searched the guest room, Battler was not on the bed. Furthermore, Erika confirmed that, overlooking one place, he did not exist in the guest room. But where was that one place? She claimed that the one place she didn't search was the closet. But... that's blue text, isn't it?

So for instance, this kind of scenario is possible: The one place Erika didn't "search" was the middle of the room, where Battler was standing in the open talking to her. After they finished, Erika went to the bathroom and Battler left while she was inside. Since Battler was standing in plain sight the whole time, even though it was confirmed that no one was hiding in the bedroom, there is no contradiction.

EDIT:
I'll say more. Kanon was also on his way to meet up with Battler and Erika. However, Erika skillfully talked Battler into leaving and then hid in the bathroom. In this way, she was able to surprise Kanon and kill him when he arrived. This is the real reason Beato refused to repeat that someone was in the closet. Kanon was never in there to begin with!
Lyrical, I have to say, I find this bloody brilliant. After all, since all of Episode 6 doesn't have a reliable detectives point-of-view, we can't be sure where the accurate scenes dissolve into the fantasy scenes.
Still, I don't have a reason to doubt Battler was hiding in the closet. What you said was true, but there's no reason either way, for him to choose hiding in the closet over hiding in the centre of the room, or vice versa. I just prefer him hiding in the closet, since to me, Erika is less likely to check it. After all, Erika, by the theories I follow, doesn't exist, so her appearence in the room is actually in reality, one of the other people on the island. And since there's still a lot of Ushiromiya family members alive to rescue Battler, it's a good chance Erika represents one of them. And Ushiromiya family members have a genetic aversion to looking in closets, right?
Actually, going back and checking the pieces, if no one besides Kanon was able to escpae from the neighbouring room, the chances of Erika being an Ushiromiya are 3:2 against, unless Shannon already counts as an Ushiromiya.
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Old 2010-06-09, 17:35   Link #1980
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
correct: the problem of demonstrating a point is that if you declare "among A, B, C, X is A", you have to prove it, which can be an endless musical chair game if the GM is simply allowing the possibility that B and C are elligible.

By taking down the other possibilities first, Erika is "proving" her theory with contraposition, exactly how Beato did before, by proving that "no other human" could do X thing, indirectly "proving" something else did it.
This makes sense for the meta-world, but it makes absolutely no sense on the board. At no point before ep6 have we ever really had to reconcile the fact that the actions of pieces made no sense.

Yes, there were magic scenes, but we could always interpret those as anywhere from "it's a metaphor for something that happened," "it's a lie people present concocted about what really happened," to "it never happened at all." We have always been confident - even in ep5, the "sham" game - that the way people behaved at least conformed to their own internal logic. Obviously that logic is a little less than we consider rational, but we have to consider that some people are killers, some people are performing magical pranks, some people may be blackmailed, etc. But those things were foreshadowed, and they were possible to contemplate within the realm of a sensible game board.

What we see in ep6 doesn't make any sense. The entire final sequence before the logic error defies any sensible interpretation if we look at it on its face as the actions of pieces (this part is important):
  • Erika approaches the room. For some reason Battler knows she's coming and that she isn't someone he wants to see, so he hides in the closet instead of anywhere else.
  • Erika enters the room and repairs the chain lock, even though this does absolutely nothing except prevent other people from entering the room. But why does she not want anyone to enter the room? As far as she knows she's looking for Battler, and he's in the room. Nobody else is supposed to be active (five people are dead, and she isn't aware of Kanon).
  • Erika deliberately checks everywhere but the closet before proceeding to the bathroom.
  • The bathroom has a trap in it. Who put the trap there? Why? When? We dunno!
  • While Erika is in the bathroom, never before and never after, Battler exits the room, Kanon enters, resets the chain, and hides in the closet.
  • Kanon, for unclear reasons, disappears. The most common explanation is he dies. Okay, so he just dies for some reason never stated.
  • Upon leaving the bathroom, Erika finally attempts to search the closet.
This is not a sensible sequence of events. Nothing about this makes sense on the piece level. No one's internal logic would ever work this way. Things happen which are never explained, but which are explicable (it's clear how the trap was set in the bathroom, but not who did it, when, or why), people do things that suggest incredible thoroughness (retaping the chain) yet ignore the closet, and the reason for Kanon to be "rescuing" Battler (along with the implication that he didn't even intend to) is equally unclear. To say nothing of how Kanon could die, disappear, or become a suppressed personality while he's hiding in the closet for no clear reason.

I reject that this scene actually happened in the fashion described in the narrative. It has to be a magic scene. Again, it's not a "magic and witches" magic scene, but it is a "magic detective story" scene. Nothing in it is impossible, yet the construction of the events renders it a violation of any sort of piece logic, and thus beyond any remote possibility of consideration. That Erika was not aware of this indicates that she is completely incompetent, or so utterly fixated on trapping Battler that she is willing to believe the board will bend over backward to "prove" her investigation correct. She's in her own little world, a detective story where she doesn't have to care who killed Owen Taylor. Well, the board doesn't work that way... but magic scenes do. Anything can happen in those!

And I can't believe that Battler's game, up to that point at least logical (we don't know why the six faked the FT, but we know from ep5 that it's very possible that people often do), would suddenly veer off into a scene so irrationally and impossibly constructed. Blaming Erika alone doesn't work, because Battler apparently put that trap in there (Meta-Battler, that is, as the writer of the story and GM). Why? It doesn't make any sense, unless he was trying to overwhelm her with "realistic" detective story elements, manipulating her into "trapping" him in the logic error. If you look at it one way, Battler is being entrapped by an increasing sequence of deductions. But if you turn the chessboard around, Battler is being entrapped by an improbable series of coincidences he himself created which permit Erika to "trap" him. Yet at the same time, her distraction in the bathroom gives Kanon time to "rescue" him. Battler already knew Kanon could and did "rescue" him. He could have left the Logic Error at any time. However, putting himself in peril was necessary for Beatrice's sake. He reeled Erika in with a childish and poorly-written detective story she fell for immediately because it was "real." And it's very possible he was doing this to illustrate Erika's existence as a magic world piece as well; if you believe she is, anyway.
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