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Old 2011-01-02, 14:30   Link #2021
totoum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soviet View Post
since there was no moral ambiguity about anything in this show
I find it surprising you say this considering the amount of debates the show has sparked in this thread.
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Old 2011-01-02, 15:12   Link #2022
Guardian Enzo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
I find it surprising you say this considering the amount of debates the show has sparked in this thread.
ITA, and if there was any question whether the show was riddled with moral ambiguities, the last minute should certainly have dispelled any doubts.
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Old 2011-01-02, 15:16   Link #2023
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Yeah theres no moral ambiguity when they start killing off not only monsters but also people who are merely hypnotized and then even people totally uninvolved who they see as being in the way. Also if you want to look at it from a certain perspective how different are shiki from other non-human creatures that can easily kill people ... examples: lions, bears, cougars, every insect or reptile with lethal venom. If you dont view shiki as "people" they are still "living" animals even though they dont have a heart beat. Plenty of animals are considered living and protected despite not being anywhere near human and considering the rarity of shiki you would almost put them in a wild life preserve because they are probably an endangered species.

So moral of the story if this happened in the U.S. we would have bat shit crazy environmentalists trying to save them.
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Old 2011-01-02, 15:56   Link #2024
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I must admit, this thread has inspired some of the more... interesting posts of the last year.
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Old 2011-01-02, 16:26   Link #2025
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@ Soviet

Basicly I find your recap incomplete:

Quote:
Monsters arrive in village, many people die, remaining villagers become aware of the danger and fight back.
I would say :

Quote:
Monsters arrive in village, many people die, remaining villagers become aware of the danger and fight back.And in the process,become monsters themselves.
Of course that's my version,others would tell you Shiki's aren't "monsters" in the first place
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Old 2011-01-02, 16:39   Link #2026
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my feeling about this is probably similar to Natsuno
It's not that I am necessarily rooting for humans. (he burned down the village after all)

The Kirishiki were assholes. Period.

Besides if you were killed and turned into a vampire what would be your very first instinct?

I think most would chose revenge.

It just bothers me when vampires assume their victims will always side with them.
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Old 2011-01-02, 17:36   Link #2027
maplehurry
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It just bothers me when vampires assume their victims will always side with them.
What bothers me is how out of so many turned villagers into shiki, only Natsuno actually held real grudge against them...

Stockholm syndrome ?
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Old 2011-01-02, 18:14   Link #2028
LunaNeko
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Originally Posted by maplehurry View Post
What bothers me is how out of so many turned villagers into shiki, only Natsuno actually held real grudge against them...

Stockholm syndrome ?
You have to remember that they were also greeted by Tatsumi who told them that if they won't cooperate - he'll throw them out to burn in the sun. Natsuno hid the fact that he came back for a while.
They were also brainwashed into thinking that their family will rise as well and they will be together again.
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Old 2011-01-02, 18:44   Link #2029
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Damn it I really dislike that priest I guess it will be a never ending cycle.
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Old 2011-01-02, 19:24   Link #2030
achirist
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Originally Posted by henwy View Post
I sincerely hope you are a troll. The alternative doesn't bear imagining.
No, I don't agree with your morality; I think vampires are great, I would like to have immortal youth/life, and I think it would be great to be given the gift of being a shiki or jinrou. Being turned into a shiki isn't being murdered, because you're still walking around in your body having new experiences for hundreds-thousands of years. I'm of a similar mind as Lestat, not Van Helsing, as far as fictional characters in the wider vampire theme go. People who have different standards and aesthetic ideas than you do are not trolls. Grow up, and indeed, widen the boundaries of your imagination.
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Old 2011-01-02, 19:29   Link #2031
orion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boduar View Post
Yeah theres no moral ambiguity when they start killing off not only monsters but also people who are merely hypnotized and then even people totally uninvolved who they see as being in the way. Also if you want to look at it from a certain perspective how different are shiki from other non-human creatures that can easily kill people ... examples: lions, bears, cougars, every insect or reptile with lethal venom. If you dont view shiki as "people" they are still "living" animals even though they dont have a heart beat. Plenty of animals are considered living and protected despite not being anywhere near human and considering the rarity of shiki you would almost put them in a wild life preserve because they are probably an endangered species.
But even if those animals cross the line, they are killed. A man eating lion isn't going to be allowed to survive.
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Old 2011-01-02, 19:43   Link #2032
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The end was awesome, so bloody and not much clichê *-*
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Old 2011-01-02, 20:23   Link #2033
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Quote:
Originally Posted by achirist View Post
No, I don't agree with your morality; I think vampires are great, I would like to have immortal youth/life, and I think it would be great to be given the gift of being a shiki or jinrou. Being turned into a shiki isn't being murdered, because you're still walking around in your body having new experiences for hundreds-thousands of years. I'm of a similar mind as Lestat, not Van Helsing, as far as fictional characters in the wider vampire theme go. People who have different standards and aesthetic ideas than you do are not trolls. Grow up, and indeed, widen the boundaries of your imagination.
1. Not everyone that were bitten became Shiki, they died. And even if rising up was possible, Japan in particular has a 99% cremation rate anyway.

2. Some of those Shiki focused on didn't look very happy. Nao was a retched soul due to reason no. 1. Toru wasn't happy. Ritsuko didn't appreciate being a Shiki. Natsuno definitely wasn't amused. And he what he said to Tatsumi before he died was on-point.

3. Not everyone wants to live forever. I don't, especially having to do it at the expense of others and the fact that I'm gimped to wandering around at night.

It's not everyone else not widening their imaginations, but you ignoring what was presented in the series, insisting that Akira and Kaori should have "mind their own business" when it became apparent that everyone was being picked off and let the Shiki take over and that Shiki were flawless, beautiful souls.

Last edited by Dilla; 2011-01-02 at 21:22. Reason: Grammar clean-up. Removed the link.
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Old 2011-01-02, 21:40   Link #2034
henwy
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I'm happy that someone with more sense to me provided the response since I probably would have just hopped up and down shooting spittle. I guess what this thread shows is that it takes all kinds and certainly we've got a wide cross-section. I can understand some people having sympathy for the shiki but at the same time I recognize it as mostly being based on false illusions and flippery. Take Megumi for instance. I'll be her fan base wouldn't be nearly as large right now if her character design had been Gonk (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Gonk) rather than goth lolita. Change absolutely nothing else about her actions and motivations and I doubt we'd even be having the argument whether she was a nasty bit of work who deserved everything she got. There was absolutely no redemption to her character whatsoever.
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Old 2011-01-02, 21:40   Link #2035
karice67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Monsters arrive in village, many people die, remaining villagers become aware of the danger and fight back. And in the process,become monsters themselves.:
Perfect description.

Though with a few exceptions, especially if you read the manga.
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Old 2011-01-02, 21:51   Link #2036
achirist
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Originally Posted by Dilla View Post
It's not everyone else not widening their imaginations

If you had even read the post I quoted, you would have seen that it was that person who brought up imagination, and I was responding in context to that, nothing to do with the snotty remark that you wrote above. But if you are invoking "everyone else" where they were not, it seems to me that some people went into this series with a preconceived notion of conventional morality on how the humans were "good" and the vampires "bad," so I won't be accused of ignoring the story for having a different perspective, despite knowing the facts. I, personally, hated kaori and her little brother, and yes, I think they should have minded their own business; which was not stopping the shiki plan that they didn't understand. Humans are unhappy too, but apprently it isn't ok to kill them but it is fine to kill happy shiki; I don't agree with that. I stand by my points, but I will end by saying that Shiki was a great show but not worth further arguments over.
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Last edited by achirist; 2011-01-02 at 22:58.
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Old 2011-01-02, 23:11   Link #2037
henwy
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WTF. Yeah, the backwards conventional morality of believing people shouldn't slaughter other people unnecessarily. What a spastic idea. The humans weren't 'good' because they were humans. They were 'good' because they were just living their lives and harming no one until the loli death machine and her monster plague decided to come to town and cause Armageddon. Their methods certainly turned some members a little gray, but up until that point they were completely blameless. They demanded nothing of the world other than to live in their quiet little village in peace and that was destroyed by the petulant desires of the death loli.
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Old 2011-01-02, 23:16   Link #2038
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Quote:
Originally Posted by achirist View Post
I, personally, hated kaori and her little brother, and yes, I think they should have minded their own business; which was not stopping the shiki plan that they didn't understand. Humans are unhappy too, but apprently it isn't ok to kill them but it is fine to kill happy shiki; I don't agree with that. I stand by my points, but I will end by saying that Shiki was a great show but not worth further arguments over.
I thought Kaori and her little brother were annoying, but I don't blame them for trying to stop the Shiki's plans. Isn't it natural to try and protect your own family and friends? Shiki were seen as a threat to their well-being, so it was their business. I would have tried to do the same.

For the humans, it was fine to kill the shiki because it was an act of defense. It's not like they could co-exist together, so what else could they do? Are the shiki wrong for killing humans because they want to survive? I don't think so, from an objective point of view. But then are humans wrong for killing the shiki because they want to survive as a race as well? I don't think so either. It's only when they went overboard by hunting some of their own that I felt that they had passed that threshold of justifiable murders.

Also, the mark of a good story is the amount of arguments it causes
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Old 2011-01-02, 23:26   Link #2039
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Both side are struggle to survive just deal with it.
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Old 2011-01-03, 02:36   Link #2040
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