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Old 2010-11-05, 07:19   Link #1281
orion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pellissier View Post
One thing I did find odd (or perhaps my memory isn't helping me because of all the week's breaks) isn't it strange that no shikis or whatsoever came to check Kyoko after she was "finished"? Especially Tatsumi who's almost certainly the one who killed her, and is both a daywalker and freely allowed to walk in the clinic.

I mean, when it was Nao's mother, they even assaulted the building. Hard to think they didn't know where Kyoko was kept either, since she was Toshio's wife.
That's right. Kyoko was being used for entrance and no shiki cared one way or the other about what happened to her afterwards. Nao's mother was just a way to intimidate Toshio.

Just like no one cared about what happened to Yuuki's body except for Megumi. If Yuuki rises, it's not like he's going to be sympathetic to their cause. He'd prob kill them.
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Old 2010-11-05, 07:50   Link #1282
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Wow, Shiki just got real. And Toshio has just undeniably achieved badass status. Yeah, it can be argued that what he did was disturbing, cruel and downright sick, but when things have turned out the way they have and the village is in a massive state of fear and despair, such actions are necessary and perhaps even heroic. He obviously loved his wife a lot, but he was level-headed enough to realize that she's dead and no longer human, and that doing what he did was a necessary sacrifice so that the humans can gain some knowledge that they can use against the shiki.
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Old 2010-11-05, 07:51   Link #1283
karice67
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Cruel? It isn't like he has any choice: do people expect the Shiki to tell them nicely what are their weaknesses?
Cruel because he's causing excessive pain and suffering on purpose. E.g. if you're looking for a weakness you can USE against them, why inject agrochemical to the bloodstream? As if you're going to be able to hold them down and inject them...

=====

Not checking on Natsuno: maybe Tatsumi knew that the funeral car had come around? He's the daywalker after all. Ah...Mr. Kirishiki could possibly have seen it too, perhaps.

But as for not checking on Kyoko...I wonder if Tatsumi had guessed what Toshio was doing and just let him do it. This may well be an incredibly careless move on Tatsumi's part.

=====

Quote:
Originally Posted by zette View Post
He obviously loved his wife a lot, but he was level-headed enough to realize that she's dead and no longer human, and that doing what he did was a necessary sacrifice so that the humans can gain some knowledge that they can use against the shiki.
I suggest reading the manga to find what he was thinking as he was waiting for her to rise.
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Old 2010-11-05, 08:53   Link #1284
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Cruel because he's causing excessive pain and suffering on purpose. E.g. if you're looking for a weakness you can USE against them, why inject agrochemical to the bloodstream? As if you're going to be able to hold them down and inject them...
Injecting is the best way to have a immediate result regarding the possible effects of that kind of product on the sample.
The purpose is to find a weakness as fast as possible, and having Kyoko tied would hardly be representative to how to defeat them, in general. It is to comprehend the biological structure and reactions they have.

Injecting is actually the least damaging option: it would be much more inconvenient for him and for Kyoko if he were to force her to drink that kind of stuff.
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Old 2010-11-05, 09:12   Link #1285
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That was a heavy episode to say the least, completely blowing away all the contents of last weeks episode. The entire operation scene is something that will stick with you for a while, i mean looking at it from Kyoko's position, she has just woken up, having no clue at all as to why she's strapped to a medical bed, and has her husband dissecting her. It would have been much easier to handle if the whole scene ended without her having said a world, though only managing to say Toshio's name was horrible. & what sums up that whole scene was Toshio's facial expression as Seishin entered the room. That totally destroyed me.

& damn that preview in the ED.

This episode shows why i'd class this as the best show of 2010, without a shadow of a doubt.
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Old 2010-11-05, 09:19   Link #1286
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The guro in this ep wasn't scary, IMO the true source of horror this ep was:

ARRRRRR!!!!!!!
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Old 2010-11-05, 09:26   Link #1287
Shiroth
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Originally Posted by Hypernova View Post
IMO the true source of horror this ep was:

ARRRRRR!!!!!!!
Personally i thought she suited sexy lingerie.

Thought there was gonna be more to that scene though. She must get paid a lot.
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Old 2010-11-05, 09:37   Link #1288
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Originally Posted by Shiroth View Post
Personally i thought she suited sexy lingerie.

Thought there was gonna be more to that scene though. She must get paid a lot.
I see that you prefer your women age like wine
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Old 2010-11-05, 10:51   Link #1289
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Im 4 mins into this and DAMN MRS. K!!!!
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Old 2010-11-05, 11:02   Link #1290
Kanon
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Cruel because he's causing excessive pain and suffering on purpose. E.g. if you're looking for a weakness you can USE against them, why inject agrochemical to the bloodstream? As if you're going to be able to hold them down and inject them...
I agree. This experimentation was a necessary evil, I'm not arguing about that, but it was still cruel. Whether he thought the person was no longer Kyouko is irrelevant, he could clearly see she was suffering tremendously yet he didn't even bat an eye and just kept going, inflicting upon her even greater amount of pain. Yes, I do think that was a heartless thing to do.
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Old 2010-11-05, 11:18   Link #1291
Shiroth
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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
I agree. This experimentation was a necessary evil, I'm not arguing about that, but it was still cruel. Whether he thought the person was no longer Kyouko is irrelevant, he could clearly see she was suffering tremendously yet he didn't even bat an eye and just kept going, inflicting upon her even greater amount of pain. Yes, I do think that was a heartless thing to do.
If Toshio had done anything that would have shown he was totally against what he was doing, that he would have broke down. He's a man of a mission, doing this for the good of the village. I'm not going to say what he did wasn't cruel, far from it, i mean i was in tears watching the whole operation, though i just don't want people going away from this episode thinking that Toshio is a heartless person.
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Old 2010-11-05, 11:19   Link #1292
miroku2192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
I agree. This experimentation was a necessary evil, I'm not arguing about that, but it was still cruel. Whether he thought the person was no longer Kyouko is irrelevant, he could clearly see she was suffering tremendously yet he didn't even bat an eye and just kept going, inflicting upon her even greater amount of pain. Yes, I do think that was a heartless thing to do.
Even more so for me because I actually liked Kyouko :'(. She seemed like a sweetheart, not the brightest, but a sweetheart, so it's really sad to see her go like this...and worse for her, to see her husband do all of this to her.

ugh this scene is one I will never forget. If it was someone else the impact would be less/gone. And for those of you who argue it's not cruel, tell me the same thing if you imagine yourself doing that to your wife. It's easier to shake off when it's "just anime"/just a story...
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Old 2010-11-05, 11:21   Link #1293
miroku2192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiroth View Post
If Toshio had done anything that would have shown he was totally against what he was doing, that he would have broke down. He's a man of a mission, doing this for the good of the village. I'm not going to say what he did wasn't cruel, far from it, i mean i was in tears watching the whole operation, though i just don't want people going away from this episode thinking that Toshio is a heartless person.
Don't forget, as the flashback scene reminds us, his whole life he has been brought up with the concept of pride, competence and excellence as the village doctor. This whole ordeal with the Shikis is a great blow to his morale AND his VERY existence, and so I can see why he essentially "broke" down in a sense and started operating on his wife. Not saying his actions are justifiable, just that it makes greater sense given the context of his background/upbringing.
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Old 2010-11-05, 11:21   Link #1294
White Manju Bun
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Wow......simply wow. First of all, HELL YEAH MEGUMI!! Finally someone slapped Masao

Toshio...that could have been the most painful thing I ever watched. It was so cold, so calculated, so sterile. It was awesome. I actually nealy cried when he staked her. Excessive, it might have been but as he stated and as his staff stated he was at the end of his rope. He finally had a "patient" to experiment on. Sucks it was his wife.

Best epi of the series so far. Also young!Seishin ftw
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Old 2010-11-05, 11:35   Link #1295
RedWing
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As soon as Toshio bound his wife's mouth so she coldn't call his name this show instantly became one of the best I've ever seen.

EDIT: Crud, I should've waited till the end of that scene! This show IS my favourite show ever - as long as it doesn't screw up.
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Old 2010-11-05, 12:03   Link #1296
Bern-san
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OH MY GOD

best and cruelest episode in the series, kyoko didn't deserve that

i actually liked megumi here, she did what everybody wanted to do: slap misao (why didn't ozaki use masao for his experiments? it's not like anybody would care)

Spoiler for young seishin and ozaki(L):


also isn't the servant of the kirishikis cute? i love her design
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Old 2010-11-05, 12:08   Link #1297
Kaoru Chujo
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To tell the truth, I find the liquor store son a much less appetizing sight than the fat nurse. They actually made her attractive, with the lingerie and the setting and her movements. It wasn't that many centuries ago that fat was beautiful. As for the son: carry on, Mrs. K!

I believe it is wrong to say that Dr. Ozaki "didn't bat an eye." The scene where he lay his his forehead against Kyouko's was deeply touching, for me; it suggested that he loved her and realized what he was doing. He tried to anesthetize her, but when that failed, felt he had to go ahead: for the sake of the village, and of the world (and for his own professional pride). He did it as expeditiously as possible, however, and ended her suffering within that one night. But I would never say that wasn't her: that was the okiagari version of her, but it was her.

As I understand it, Buddhist ethics are a bit different from Christian ethics. I believe the Buddha is supposed to have said that it was permissible to kill one person if that would save the lives of many others: a kind of utilitarian approach. In Christianity, you are not supposed to kill anyone -- but of course, Christian priests bless armies, so the supposed ethics are conveniently forgotten when necessary.

This episode was so powerful (and gross) that it got an entry in the Sankaku Complex blog (other contents NSFW).
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Old 2010-11-05, 12:08   Link #1298
Guardian Enzo
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I'm sorry, but I just don't see any evidence that was Toshio did involved unnecessary cruelty. First of all, there was no evidence that he was enjoying it - far from it. If anything he was cold and dispassionate about it, but I think that was the only way he could get through it. He tried to knock her out - it didn't work. When he realized that, he knew there was nothing for it but to get it over with as fast as possible. He had a mission - to figure out what the shiki were vulnerable to and eventually, how they could be defeated. He did nothing that wasn't directly tied to fulfilling that mission - and thus, "necessary".

Was it cold, brutal, unpleasant - yes. But it wasn't vindictive or intentionally cruel - both of which, I might add, are things we've seen plenty of from the shiki. It was the desparate act of a desparate man trying to save his village from annihalation.
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Old 2010-11-05, 12:15   Link #1299
Shiroth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
I believe it is wrong to say that Dr. Ozaki "didn't bat an eye."
The best example of this would be the close up shot before Toshio hammered down the weapon into her heart. His eyes changed back to normal as he looked at Kyoko one last time. It could be possible to look at that scene as Toshio taking one last glimpse of what his wife has become, so he can look at at these events and tell himself that he did the right thing.

At the end of the day, the events of this episode were very heavy and emotional. I for one won't be forgetting what has taken place here for a very long time.
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Old 2010-11-05, 14:01   Link #1300
Kanon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
I'm sorry, but I just don't see any evidence that was Toshio did involved unnecessary cruelty. First of all, there was no evidence that he was enjoying it - far from it. If anything he was cold and dispassionate about it, but I think that was the only way he could get through it. He tried to knock her out - it didn't work. When he realized that, he knew there was nothing for it but to get it over with as fast as possible. He had a mission - to figure out what the shiki were vulnerable to and eventually, how they could be defeated. He did nothing that wasn't directly tied to fulfilling that mission - and thus, "necessary".

Was it cold, brutal, unpleasant - yes. But it wasn't vindictive or intentionally cruel - both of which, I might add, are things we've seen plenty of from the shiki. It was the desparate act of a desparate man trying to save his village from annihalation.
No one is saying he enjoyed it. I'm not claiming Toshio is a cruel person, but his actions in this episode were. He did what he deemed was necessary, but in the end, the fact remains that he inflicted pain upon another person, over and over again. How does it not fit the definition of "cruel"? Let's also keep in mind the experiments lasted over 2 hours (it's impossible to tell precisely how long it lasted since the camera ran out of tape). Somehow I feel you guys do not realize the gravity of his actions... no matter how good his reasons were, this is not something a perfectly sane person would do. He is never going to be the same after this.

About whether or not he loved Kyouko, the manga made it rather clear. Unfortunately, it was cut out of the anime. I'll keep my mouth shut in case it's included in the next episode, but I very much doubt it will be.
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