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Old 2010-12-19, 09:55   Link #1761
karice67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
She pretty much says this herself when she says "this is my punishnment",I find it interesting how people try and defend her actions when Sunako herself doesn't defend them.
I'm not trying to defend Sunako's actions. I just disagree with the people who are saying "she deserves it, go burn in hell" because I don't think she really had that much of a choice, all things considered. She effectively had the mentality of a 10 year old (or thereabouts?) when she was turned. So you expected a 10 year old to choose to starve herself to death?

What can I say? I feel sorry for her. And I feel sorry for Tohru, and for Ritchan and all the others who were killed (well, at least the ones we can be sympathetic to). For Kaori and Akira too.

And I'm starting to feel sorry for Toshio, who's now realising the insanity he's unleashed.

As for those I don't really feel sorry for? Megumi, Tomio (the huge guy), Seishirou (so far in the anime, anyway).

Natsuno I'm still ambivalent about. I think I liked him more before he came back.

@orion
As for Sunako's family, it's implied that they grew old and died. Certainly, they shrunk from what you'd say was their responsibility to stake her. But that only supports the argument that it is humans who started the whole cycle of dehumanising.
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Last edited by karice67; 2010-12-19 at 10:28.
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Old 2010-12-19, 10:23   Link #1762
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
I'm not trying to defend Sunako's actions.

Sorry,should have made it clear that I wasn't aiming that comment at you,it was a general comment,you might not be trying to defend her actions but I've heard some that do.

Don't get me wrong,I do feel sorry for Sunako. I don't see why thinking "she's getting what she deserves" and "feeling sorry for her" have to be mutualy exclusive.
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Old 2010-12-19, 10:47   Link #1763
karice67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Don't get me wrong,I do feel sorry for Sunako. I don't see why thinking "she's getting what she deserves" and "feeling sorry for her" have to be mutualy exclusive.
Maybe it's just the way I see it, but expressions along the line of "she's getting what she deserves" imply a lack of sympathy.

"Feeling sorry for her" doesn't have to be mutually exclusive with thinking "she brought it upon herself". I'm completely willing to acknowledge that she's brought this upon herself. I just feel that most people who don't feel sorry for her aren't trying to understand the kind of life she led until she was able to 'create' the Kirishiki group. (Going by how well Tatsumi knows her, I'd say he was probably her first companion.)
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Old 2010-12-19, 12:58   Link #1764
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Maybe it's just the way I see it, but expressions along the line of "she's getting what she deserves" imply a lack of sympathy.

"Feeling sorry for her" doesn't have to be mutually exclusive with thinking "she brought it upon herself". I'm completely willing to acknowledge that she's brought this upon herself. I just feel that most people who don't feel sorry for her aren't trying to understand the kind of life she led until she was able to 'create' the Kirishiki group. (Going by how well Tatsumi knows her, I'd say he was probably her first companion.)
I can't really see the logic there. If someone who is in complete understanding of their(1) actions, and the consequences which may be brought about by said actions, then why in the world should anyone feel sorry for them when said consequences come true?

That would be akin to feeling sorry for the people featured in shows like "World's Dumbest Stunt Performers" and similar things. Nobody feels sorry for those people, right? If anyone does, I would be more than a little surprised.

Granted, when she was first turned, the entire situation was beyond her control, and so during that period of time some measure of sympathy could be expected. However, I fail to see how that has any bearing on what she is doing now, and how her present actions are supposed to garner any sympathy at all, as she was fully aware of the possible outcomes when she began to put her plans into motion.

Plus, from my perspective, feeling sorry for someone because of a past experience which they have obviously dealt with to the best of their ability makes little or no sense. If I felt sorry for people just because of something that happened to them sometime, I would feel sorry for everyone on the planet, when it should be obvious that not everyone is deserving of sympathy.

What I mean when I say that some people are not deserving of sympathy is that either their consequent actions were so vile that they lose their right to sympathy, or they have already dealt with the unfortunate occurrences in their lives and "made their peace" with them to the best of their abilities and so they do not need or want sympathy. I believe Sunako falls into the latter category.

In short, I can see how she, in her early life, was deserving of a measure of sympathy. However, that time is gone, and has no bearing on her present day actions.

(1): I hate using "their" as a genderless singular pronoun, as so many people tend to do these days, but I'm not writing "his or her" over and over, and I am unaware of a better word to portray my meaning that would maintain general grammatical acceptability.
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Old 2010-12-19, 19:24   Link #1765
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I'm strongly reminded of the old Twilight Zone episode 'The Monsters are due on Maple Street', because what we saw here was that the humans can be just as big monsters as the Shiki - if not worse. Powerful stuff.

At least BBW Nurse was freed!

I think this show has very much been "Vampire anime DONE RIGHT".
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Old 2010-12-19, 19:56   Link #1766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Maybe it's just the way I see it, but expressions along the line of "she's getting what she deserves" imply a lack of sympathy.

"Feeling sorry for her" doesn't have to be mutually exclusive with thinking "she brought it upon herself". I'm completely willing to acknowledge that she's brought this upon herself. I just feel that most people who don't feel sorry for her aren't trying to understand the kind of life she led until she was able to 'create' the Kirishiki group. (Going by how well Tatsumi knows her, I'd say he was probably her first companion.)
Or Tatsumi is able to read most people and manipulate them. He manipulated Chizuru's husband into doing the sniper work without backup.

I understand she was all alone with no roots until she created her family. Blah, blah, blah. It still doesn't make me feel sorry for her current situation. I have no pity for her whatsoever. She deserves everything she's going to get and then some. (Driving a stake thru her chest is being too nice. They need to get creative with her.)
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Old 2010-12-19, 20:59   Link #1767
karice67
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@orion
Tatsumi is pretty hard to read, even in the manga. But I'd say that he probably does care for Sunako, if only because he's willing to do so much for her even though he's more powerful than she is. Seishirou didn't need manipulating - he really was in love with Chizuru.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Neat Hedgehog View Post
Granted, when she was first turned, the entire situation was beyond her control, and so during that period of time some measure of sympathy could be expected. However, I fail to see how that has any bearing on what she is doing now, and how her present actions are supposed to garner any sympathy at all, as she was fully aware of the possible outcomes when she began to put her plans into motion.
Because the experiences you have inform the decisions you subsequently make?

I don't approve of her decision to try and turn the village into a Shiki village, but I think I understand why she chose that path. I do feel sympathy for Sunako because of the experiences that shaped her way of thinking, the experiences that made her want to have a Shiki community where they didn't have to hide anymore. But it was a risky decision, and probably an impossible wish. Now she only has herself to blame for the predicament all her people find themselves in, and I don't feel sorry for this part of her situation.
Do I think Sunako should "pay for her sins", so to speak? Well, yes. But at the same time, I think that Toshio should be punished somehow for what he did to Kyouko, and that Tomio should be punished for killing the hypnotised human.
Looking at the human side then. I personally fail to see how Toshio's experiences of the Shiki walking all over him entail that he should get away with being so inhumane to Kyouko, who hadn't even done anything. You can argue that he had no choice, but I think he had about the same amount of choice that Sunako did. He just chose what he thought was best for the humans.

And when he found the villagers ignoring him (around episodes 15-16 was it?), it was just a matter of "what goes round, comes round" to me. Why? Because he did exactly the same thing to Natsuno, even if it was only for a split second.

The only characters whose decisions I'm completely supportive of at the moment are Rit-chan, Kaori and Akira (though I am glad Tohru was able to learn something from Rit-chan). If Natsuno goes through with his statement of condemning himself at the end, then him as well, but I'd say the jury's still up in the air about whether that'll happen.
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Old 2010-12-19, 21:42   Link #1768
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Because the experiences you have inform the decisions you subsequently make?
It's still ultimately your own decision what path you take, regardless of what influences you. If you allow your experiences to lead you to make decisions that lead to unhealthy consequences, then it's still your fault for not having been resilient enough to follow a better path.

I know it probably seems a bit harsh, but, like I tell my friends "It's not that I lack sympathy, it just happens that not many people deserve it."

Last edited by Neat Hedgehog; 2010-12-19 at 23:06. Reason: Fixed a botched quote
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Old 2010-12-19, 22:52   Link #1769
karice67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neat Hedgehog View Post
It's still ultimately your own decision what path you take, regardless of what influences you. If you allow your experiences to lead you to make decisions that lead to unhealthy consequences, then it's still your fault for not having been resilient enough to follow a better path.

I know it probably seems a bit harsh, but, like I tell my friends "It's not that I lack sympathy, it just happens that not many people deserve it."
As I already said, I don't fully sympathise with Sunako myself.

What puzzles me about some opinions here is that they're fully for the humans, to the point of supporting a complete, blind massacre. As TheForsaken already noted once before, many genocides in history happened because of this kind of approach.
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Last edited by karice67; 2010-12-19 at 23:17.
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Old 2010-12-19, 23:05   Link #1770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
As I already said, I don't fully sympathise with Sunako myself.
I know, I was just clarifying my point of view since you asked (although that may have been rhetorical).

Quote:
What puzzles me about some opinions here is that they're fully for the humans, to the point of supporting a complete, blind massacre. As TheFrosaken already noted once before, many genocides in history happened because of this kind of approach.
Yeah, that's a little surprising to me, too. But a lot of people are inherently speciests, which is only natural, so I guess it shouldn't be that surprising. When its your own kind being hunted down and killed the way that humans hunt down and kill other animals, it can be difficult to accept the similarities in each side's actions, simply because it makes your own actions toward "prey" species harder to defend.

The easiest choice is to go with your own species (or race) regardless of how equally both sides may share atrocities. That's usually a bad idea, though, as has already been pointed out.
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Old 2010-12-20, 16:14   Link #1771
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I don't understand: why didn't Shiki start a full-scale war? There were about 50 (20 [30%] were killed) shiki left the second night, and they could easily kill the villagers, and avoid being destroyed.
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Old 2010-12-20, 16:53   Link #1772
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Originally Posted by kache View Post
20

I don't understand: why didn't Shiki start a full-scale war? There were about 50 (20 [30%] were killed) shiki left the second night, and they could easily kill the villagers, and avoid being destroyed.
Who knows? Well alot of them were prob killing to protect their human families. Those guys prob aren't going to go out and kill their families now. Then there's prob shiki that don't want to kill friends, neighbors etc.

Then there could be a group that's just too scared to do anything. It's easy to be superior when you've got the upper hand but not so easy when you have to work for it.
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Old 2010-12-23, 12:26   Link #1773
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OMG YES!

Shiki's 8th and 9th DVD to include Unaired Episodes.
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Old 2010-12-23, 12:29   Link #1774
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I hate it when they do that, it's irritating because I find it incredibly difficult to get my hands on the DVDs.
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Old 2010-12-23, 12:29   Link #1775
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Wow, more footage from episodes 20 and 21. Brilliant!
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Old 2010-12-23, 12:32   Link #1776
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Wow, more footage from episodes 20 and 21. Brilliant!
My thoughts exactly. Hoping 20.5 includes more Ritchan and Toru.
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Old 2010-12-23, 12:42   Link #1777
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I assume these will be the side stories, but we'll see.
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Old 2010-12-23, 13:08   Link #1778
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Hope those extra episodes clear up what happened to Akira and his sister, looks like their stories may have gotten shafted to give time to wrap everything else up.
Spoiler for episode 21:
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Old 2010-12-23, 13:09   Link #1779
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I assume these will be the side stories, but we'll see.
20.5 and 21.5 basically means more content from said episode, and there's a lot going on at the moment so not every character can be focused on. It'll more then likely be focused on them.
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Old 2010-12-23, 13:54   Link #1780
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Well - they do specifically say 20.5 and 21.5, don't they? I hadn't noticed that - since the source material does have extra chapters I figured that'd be it.

To me, setting up a cliffhanger in the TV and not resolving it until the DVD extras is kind of dirty pool. It'd suck to have to wait until then to see the Akira and Kaori situations resolved.
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