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Old 2010-12-27, 17:25   Link #1861
orion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
Seishin felt commiting suicide was the only way he could escape from his responsibilities. Personally, I think he should have just grown a set of balls. The Shiki offered him another way out: the destruction of the village. I can't remember if that line was in the anime or not:

Spoiler for manga:
But, he should have just walked away. Having your freedom served on a pile of corpses when being assertive would have been better is just wrong.
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Old 2010-12-27, 18:34   Link #1862
karice67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion View Post
But, he should have just walked away. Having your freedom served on a pile of corpses when being assertive would have been better is just wrong.
You mean leave? I would argue that he couldn't, because of his position and his responsibilities, both to the village and to his parents. Also, looking back at the timeline (using manga dates here, so they might be slightly off).
Spoiler for length:
I'd say Seishin was (1) prepared to die, and (2) reacted to what he personally experienced. He may have been ambivalent about the village at first, but the triggers for his decisions have been the violence he witnessed and his own father's reaction. Confronted with a group of villagers now killing indiscriminately - how would you expect him to react?

@Kanon
As for "high principles" being nothing but a lie, I personally think he was always wavering. The turning point was when he saw the aftermath of Toshio's experimentation on his wife.
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Old 2010-12-27, 22:00   Link #1863
orion
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
You mean leave? I would argue that he couldn't, because of his position and his responsibilities, both to the village and to his parents.
That's a misconception. He can pack his bags and walk away at any time. He's blaming his impotence/lack of balls on the village. So what if they have to bring in another monk to replace him? He's suppose to be happy with what he does in life.
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Old 2010-12-27, 22:37   Link #1864
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion View Post
That's a misconception. He can pack his bags and walk away at any time. He's blaming his impotence/lack of balls on the village. So what if they have to bring in another monk to replace him? He's suppose to be happy with what he does in life.
His only restraint is money, which may be overcome should he novelist career take off.
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Old 2010-12-28, 08:31   Link #1865
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion View Post
That's a misconception. He can pack his bags and walk away at any time. He's blaming his impotence/lack of balls on the village. So what if they have to bring in another monk to replace him? He's suppose to be happy with what he does in life.
Pretty much.

As addition if what Kanon says is true (can't remember if the anime said it either) then he really doesn't care about his position or, what the villagers think of him. So really, why take the bloody way out if it can be avoided? Is he some sort of Nihilist?
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Old 2010-12-28, 09:21   Link #1866
Kanon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
Pretty much.

As addition if what Kanon says is true (can't remember if the anime said it either) then he really doesn't care about his position or, what the villagers think of him. So really, why take the bloody way out if it can be avoided? Is he some sort of Nihilist?
Chapter 12, Page 29. I made double sure I didn't dream it before posting. It was when Toshio and Seishin argued about what to do with the Shiki. I checked the anime version, and as I thought, they've cut out that line, which in my opinion was incredibly important for Seishin's characterization. This was the true turning point for Seishin in my opinion.

Spoiler for Just in case:


Also, think about it: has Seishin ever been saddened, angered, or moved at all by the deaths throughout the series? Toshio may have his flaws, but he strikes me as being a lot more human than Seishin.
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Old 2010-12-28, 09:55   Link #1867
karice67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion View Post
That's a misconception. He can pack his bags and walk away at any time. He's blaming his impotence/lack of balls on the village. So what if they have to bring in another monk to replace him? He's suppose to be happy with what he does in life.
Trust me, it's not, especially not in Japanese society. And he definitely wouldn't have been able to do it after the deaths started taking place.

The most plausible way, probably the only way, for him to get out would have been to kill himself. That's what he didn't have the courage to try a second time (I do wonder what happened the first time, i.e. who saved him and whether that had a bearing on his not trying again).

Also, I wouldn't say that he's blaming the village for his choosing to stay. He's just made his choices based on the actions he can and cannot condone. In one sense, in choosing not to kill anyone, he's making a choice very similar to Rit-chan's. Just a thought: what do you think Rit-chan would have done had she not been turned?

I know that a lot of people here would say that going to the Kirishiki mansion, and later providing blood to Tatsumi (IIRC, this hasn't been shown in the manga...) means Seishin's prioritising the lives of the Shiki.

However, looking at his occupation (a monk) and the situation he found Toshio in (basically defiling the body of a person), I can see why he chose not to follow the human side in the end. Unlike so many of the other characters, Seishin is actually conflicted for most of the series, which is precisely what makes him interesting to me.

edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
Chapter 12, Page 29. I made double sure I didn't dream it before posting. It was when Toshio and Seishin argued about what to do with the Shiki. I checked the anime version, and as I thought, they've cut out that line, which in my opinion was incredibly important for Seishin's characterization. This was the true turning point for Seishin in my opinion.
I disagree. Shortly after this (at least in the manga, not sure about the anime), Seishin reflects on Toshio's accusation and decides to go help the latter out (see p.g. 135-138 of volume 6 / pg 33-35 of A certain doctor's record (ch 18 or 20)). What he decides to help with is unclear, but unfortunately, he comes to see Toshio just as the latter finishes with Kyouko. In my opinion, this is the real turning point.

edit 2: I thought it was weird. There seems to be a page missing in the scanlation of chapter 12 (chapter 14 in some places). The page between 28 and 29 is missing. Er...it's an important one and I'd translate it, but I'm not sure how much leeway we have to talk about it here?

And before anyone argues that Seishin went to the Shiki side right there and then, please note that he didn't do anything for a good 2-3 weeks (see dates in my post above).
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Last edited by karice67; 2010-12-28 at 10:27.
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Old 2010-12-28, 11:30   Link #1868
Kanon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Also, I wouldn't say that he's blaming the village for his choosing to stay. He's just made his choices based on the actions he can and cannot condone. In one sense, in choosing not to kill anyone, he's making a choice very similar to Rit-chan's. Just a thought: what do you think Rit-chan would have done had she not been turned?
That's a very interesting question. I doubt she would have actively participated in the hunt itself, however, it's likely she would have helped the human side (by treating their wounds, or whatever). Her mindset probably wouldn't have been that different from that of the others: "The shiki are dead. What is dead should stay dead. We're not killing them, we're only putting them back in their graves."

Quote:
I disagree. Shortly after this (at least in the manga, not sure about the anime), Seishin reflects on Toshio's accusation and decides to go help the latter out (see p.g. 135-138 of volume 6 / pg 33-35 of A certain doctor's record (ch 18 or 20)). What he decides to help with is unclear, but unfortunately, he comes to see Toshio just as the latter finishes with Kyouko. In my opinion, this is the real turning point.

edit 2: I thought it was weird. There seems to be a page missing in the scanlation of chapter 12 (chapter 14 in some places). The page between 28 and 29 is missing. Er...it's an important one and I'd translate it, but I'm not sure how much leeway we have to talk about it here?

And before anyone argues that Seishin went to the Shiki side right there and then, please note that he didn't do anything for a good 2-3 weeks (see dates in my post above).
Hmm, I forgot about that. Then I agree witnessing what Toshio did to his wife was the final nail in the coffin. The scene in chapter 12 is still a very important one to understand why he chose this path. I guess From my point view, Seishin isn't completely back, but he's not completely white either. His motivations are definitely not pure.

I'd love to see that missing page. I think it'd be okay to post the translation under spoiler tag. It's from a very old chapter after all.
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Old 2010-12-28, 21:52   Link #1869
karice67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
I'd love to see that missing page. I think it'd be okay to post the translation under spoiler tag. It's from a very old chapter after all.
I don't know...the moderators here seem to be very strict. At any rate, I'll save this somewhere else too just in case.

I've checked the anime (ep 11), and there were a few changes - lines left out and stuff. Also, this is just my own rough translation (not directly referring to what's already available but possibly remembering some of it).

From Toshio's accusation on p.g.28
: dialogue
: [thoughts]

Spoiler for chapter 12/14 missing page translation:


The very next scene, Seishin meets Sunako again, and tells her that he thinks she's a Shiki. I get the impression that he was hoping that she'd attack him, but she decides against it.

Next time Seishin and Toshio speak is about Ikumi (the crazy pink-haired old woman). After that, Seishin calls Toshio when his father suddenly demands to see Tokujiro (and he learns of the attack on Kyouko)... Basically, a lot of things happen between Setsuko's death and the next time Seishin and Toshio meet.

To me, that scene at the grave is the point where Seishin is confronted with what's bothering him, the darkness in his heart that's existed at least his university days, when he wanted to live his own life. He spends a fair amount of time pondering it, and the roles and duties of other members of the village, over the next few days, and seems to decide that his place is in the village, that he should do what he can to help. But then he walks in to see what Toshio has done and decides that he doesn't want to have a part in it.

And as I mentioned before, a fair amount of time passes before Seishin decides to go to Sunako, and that trigger is actually Seishin discovering the contents of his father's letter.

So, two turning points, if you wish. But I think the more important one was probably Seishin walking in on the end of Toshio's experiments.

---

You know, if Rit-chan had seen that, I think she would have walked out on Toshio too.
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Last edited by karice67; 2010-12-29 at 03:26.
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Old 2010-12-28, 21:58   Link #1870
shiroi mahotsukai
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It makes kind of a lot more sense now than it did before. I can sort of understand him better, it throws a lot of his actions in a whole new light. I get the feeling that the anime leaves out a lot of little bits like, little bits that could be very important. Am I right?
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Old 2010-12-28, 22:08   Link #1871
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiroi mahotsukai View Post
It makes kind of a lot more sense now than it did before. I can sort of understand him better, it throws a lot of his actions in a whole new light. I get the feeling that the anime leaves out a lot of little bits like, little bits that could be very important. Am I right?
It feels that way as well, since alot of anime adaptations leave out infos that could be very vital for people to truly understand what the plot going on is about.
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Old 2010-12-29, 12:27   Link #1872
Kanon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
- snip -

The very next scene, Seishin meets Sunako again, and tells her that he thinks she's a Shiki. I get the impression that he was hoping that she'd attack him, but she decides against it.

Next time Seishin and Toshio speak is about Ikumi (the crazy pink-haired old woman). After that, Seishin calls Toshio when his father suddenly demands to see Tokujiro (and he learns of the attack on Kyouko)... Basically, a lot of things happen between Setsuko's death and the next time Seishin and Toshio meet.

To me, that scene at the grave is the point where Seishin is confronted with what's bothering him, the darkness in his heart that's existed at least his university days, when he wanted to live his own life. He spends a fair amount of time pondering it, and the roles and duties of other members of the village, over the next few days, and seems to decide that his place is in the village, that he should do what he can to help. But then he walks in to see what Toshio has done and decides that he doesn't want to have a part in it.

And as I mentioned before, a fair amount of time passes before Seishin decides to go to Sunako, and that trigger is actually Seishin discovering the contents of his father's letter.

So, two turning points, if you wish. But I think the more important one was probably Seishin walking in on the end of Toshio's experiments.

---

You know, if Rit-chan had seen that, I think she would have walked out on Toshio too.
Thanks a lot for the translation and your explanations. Seishin definitely appears to be a lot more conflicted that I thought he was. I have a slightly better opinion of him now.

I agree Rit-chan would have also walked out on Toshio if she had seen what he did. Most people would have. Only someone with a very rational mind would readily accept his actions; or the opposite: someone blinded by sadness and rage, like the villagers right now.
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Old 2010-12-29, 13:40   Link #1873
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I think they'd been more disturbed he did that to his wife. I think it would have been excepted by more ppl if it was some joe shmo he did that to. So yeah i think if it was some stranger Rit-chan prolly could have excepted it then
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Old 2010-12-29, 14:43   Link #1874
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Seishin: [Somewhere in the depths of my heart, I felt that I wouldn't mind if the village died out.] [/SPOILER]

The very next scene, Seishin meets Sunako again, and tells her that he thinks she's a Shiki. I get the impression that he was hoping that she'd attack him, but she decides against it.

Next time Seishin and Toshio speak is about Ikumi (the crazy pink-haired old woman). After that, Seishin calls Toshio when his father suddenly demands to see Tokujiro (and he learns of the attack on Kyouko)... Basically, a lot of things happen between Setsuko's death and the next time Seishin and Toshio meet.

To me, that scene at the grave is the point where Seishin is confronted with what's bothering him, the darkness in his heart that's existed at least his university days, when he wanted to live his own life. He spends a fair amount of time pondering it, and the roles and duties of other members of the village, over the next few days, and seems to decide that his place is in the village, that he should do what he can to help. But then he walks in to see what Toshio has done and decides that he doesn't want to have a part in it.

And as I mentioned before, a fair amount of time passes before Seishin decides to go to Sunako, and that trigger is actually Seishin discovering the contents of his father's letter.

So, two turning points, if you wish. But I think the more important one was probably Seishin walking in on the end of Toshio's experiments.

---

You know, if Rit-chan had seen that, I think she would have walked out on Toshio too.
That does explain quite a bit about Seishin during that moment, I always wondered when I watched that episode what he was thinking when he walked out on Toshio then. So he was about to actually help the village, but then saw what Toshio did, and rash as it was, decided not to take the time to think about it and just leave him out on his crazy plans. So what would possibly happen if Seishin din't see what Toshio has done? Would he still have sided with the Shiki?
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Old 2010-12-29, 16:36   Link #1875
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I'm finally listening to the first Shiki mini soundtrack. FINALLY.
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Old 2010-12-29, 21:46   Link #1876
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So since Japan is celebrating New Years, does that mean the final episode's not coming on tomorrow?
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Old 2010-12-30, 00:54   Link #1877
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Thanks for that bit of info Karice, I still don't like Seishin joining the Shiki (they really aren't much better than humans) but at least he's more understandable. He's also fortunate to have choice in the matter compared to the poor sods who were forced to "turn" or die.

He still should have talk to Toshio though, as he understands best how this situation has strained him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooves View Post
That does explain quite a bit about Seishin during that moment, I always wondered when I watched that episode what he was thinking when he walked out on Toshio then. So he was about to actually help the village, but then saw what Toshio did, and rash as it was, decided not to take the time to think about it and just leave him out on his crazy plans. So what would possibly happen if Seishin din't see what Toshio has done? Would he still have sided with the Shiki?
Sounds like it from Karice's post, but it's still likely he would have been a little conflicted. Ultimately in reality he be really neutral.
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Old 2010-12-30, 01:13   Link #1878
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v1cious View Post
So since Japan is celebrating New Years, does that mean the final episode's not coming on tomorrow?
It is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiroth View Post
I'm finally listening to the first Shiki mini soundtrack. FINALLY.
Care to share the source, please? Unless you got the disc itself, of course.
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Old 2010-12-30, 05:36   Link #1879
thundrakkon
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I finally had the chance to marathon through this series, and I must say, it has been quite entertaining. I only read discussions in this thread for episode 21 on, so please excuse any repeats.

Spoiler for For long wall of text:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Loving this story as much as I do really makes me want to go back and watch Ghost Hunt, another anime based on a Fuyimi Ono novel. I missed it the first time around and I know it's quite different than Shiki in overall tone - anyone have a strong recommendation on that series?
I never had a chance to finish Ghost Hunt yet, since I was watching halfway through it and waited for a friend to watch it together with. Unfortunately, the series was so good that she watched it completely without waiting for me... It is different, but it gave me chills to watch it. It is definitely a lot scarier than Shiki.

Quote:
Originally Posted by v1cious View Post
So since Japan is celebrating New Years, does that mean the final episode's not coming on tomorrow?
As far as I know from the sources I read, it airs on the 30th in Japan, so not quite New Years Eve yet.
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Old 2010-12-30, 13:39   Link #1880
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Spoiler for last episode:


Spoiler for final thoughts:
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