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Old 2010-12-31, 18:12   Link #1961
fukarming
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Am I the only one that is bothered by the cheap "Senshin become werewolf" plot? I don't mind Senshin and Sunako surviving, but Senshin just turned to a werewolf and save the day despite the low odds are what bothering me. It is like those 70s show where when all hopes of the main characters are lost, some super heroes (or comrades who are supposed to be dead) came out of nowhere and save the day.

I rewatched Senshin's speech 3 times, and the way I understand it, is that if you are born "unblessed" (He is referring to Shiki, but in real life that would mean you either born with a birth defect or you born in a dump with abusive alcoholic father and crack addicting mother...etc), it is OK for you to ignore the moral boundaries and do your best to survive? Since god(or other humans) is not around you when you need them, it is OK to throw away the rules and boundaries set by god or other humans? Am I understanding that wrong or is that the message Senshin trying to bring?

But then I think the current ending is still better than the Shiki completely wipe out and human live happily ever after ending many here seems to want. As such ending would imply the human is "right" and Shiki is "wrong".

I think the best ending would be Shiki got completely wipe out, but the police come and discover the body. The police obviously won't believe the Shiki story and arrest Toshio and all villagers for performing monstrous cult ritual (the villagers told the outsider they are performing some village ritual) and sentenced them to death or life imprisonment.
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Old 2010-12-31, 18:14   Link #1962
orion
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Originally Posted by maplehurry View Post
To those complaining about Sunako not dying when she deserved to... maybe she will live to repent her sin !

Maybe she will only bite big bad criminals like a batman !


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Originally Posted by thundrakkon View Post

Awesome because now, she can have a bunch of criminal minions instead that would not hesitate to kill her at any second.
Could you imagine the mess she'd be in if she turned The Joker?

The speech about his dad and wanting to put a big smile on her face. Bring it on!

------

Yeah I thought Seishin becoming a werewolf was plot armor/deux ex in the worse way.
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Old 2010-12-31, 18:23   Link #1963
Manic
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I would have prefered, that nats got away and saved a few of the shiki like Tohru and Rits with maybe like megumi escaping in her own. Since it wasnt there fault that this happened. I was just wanting sunoko and the monk to die.


also yeah ur not the only one who that it was cheap he became a werewolf. When nats was being turned he was so weak he couldnt even move, but the monk was rambo in disguise. He can be half dead and carry heavy luggage around, be hacked open, drive, carry said luggage after being hacked, and still hurry to sunoko's location after reviving.
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Old 2010-12-31, 19:10   Link #1964
matapat
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also yeah ur not the only one who that it was cheap he became a werewolf. When nats was being turned he was so weak he couldnt even move, but the monk was rambo in disguise. He can be half dead and carry heavy luggage around, be hacked open, drive, carry said luggage after being hacked, and still hurry to sunoko's location after reviving.
I never read the original novel, but from what I've seen in this thread didn't Natsuno just flat out die in that and not revive as a werewolf, leaving Seishin as the only one who did in story? If that's the case the abrupt Deus ex Machina of him becoming a daywalker and saving Sunako in the end probably would have had more dramatic impact. The manga/anime keeping Natsuno alive as a werewolf for the sake of forcibly shoehorning in a shonen-age protagonist to expand the story's target age demographic probably damaged the novel's climax in this regard.
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Old 2010-12-31, 19:17   Link #1965
orion
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I never read the original novel, but from what I've seen in this thread didn't Natsuno just flat out die in that and not revive as a werewolf, leaving Seishin as the only one who did in story? If that's the case the abrupt Deus ex Machina of him becoming a daywalker and saving Sunako in the end probably would have had more dramatic impact. The manga/anime keeping Natsuno alive as a werewolf for the sake of forcibly shoehorning in a shonen-age protagonist to expand the story's target age demographic probably damaged the novel's climax in this regard.
Even without Natsuno, it was a deux ex and a cheap way to save Sunako. Werewolves are rare (4-5 total known) according to the series. You don't just get one when you need one at the end of the series. Plus he didn't drink any blood. So now we have a newborn werewolf who just happens to be pumped on steroids enough to hack a human with a cleaver.

And Natsuno, Megumi and Tooru are prob the driving force for DVD and manga sales. Sunako has her fans also. I doubt that many people were watching this for Seishin. Toshio's cool but he won't sell much either.
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Old 2010-12-31, 19:23   Link #1966
karice67
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Originally Posted by thundrakkon View Post
One way to top a small village in the middle of nowhere is to start a vampire empire in a large metropolis. A lot more people die there, and it is not as easy to find out.
Do remember that one of the reasons Sotoba was chosen is that they still BURY their dead. If people are cremated after their funerals (usually about 3 days after they die), then of course they're not going to rise up.


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Originally Posted by matapat View Post
I never read the original novel, but from what I've seen in this thread didn't Natsuno just flat out die in that and not revive as a werewolf, leaving Seishin as the only one who did in story? If that's the case the abrupt Deus ex Machina of him becoming a daywalker and saving Sunako in the end probably would have had more dramatic impact. The manga/anime keeping Natsuno alive as a werewolf for the sake of forcibly shoehorning in a shonen-age protagonist to expand the story's target age demographic probably damaged the novel's climax in this regard.
We're never really told what the chances are...but based on what Tatsumi said once they cleared out the hiding places in the village, around 100 people ended up being turned. 2/100 - I don't think it's such a bad ratio.

But why two main characters? Because from a storytelling perspective, any author would focus on the jinrou, of course, because they're the ones who really have the power to choose.

That said, I agree that Natsuno coming back was a distraction - though not for the same reason as you. Rather, he was a distraction from the contrast between Toshio and Seishin.

My other theory is that Natsuno was
Spoiler for possible novel spoiler:
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Old 2010-12-31, 19:29   Link #1967
matteas
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Count me to the side that sympathizes with Sunako. I was very glad to see her leave the village with Seishin, as I couldn't regard her as a villain at that time any more. If you asked me some 5-6 episodes ago, I wouldn't give a damn about Sunako and other Shiki and I would root for the villagers. But in the latest episodes, it's turned into a total warfare where both sides are equal and no morality and ethics apply there. It's live or die, a situation where both sides are going to do their bests to keep on living and defeat the other side. The human side were those who started the last showdown, but I cannot blame them for that. However, at that point of time, I was already able to choose whom to root for freely since the human side has turned into some kind of beasts too. And my choice was probably influenced by the great voice acting of Yuuki Aoi, so I wanted Sunako to survive. That's why I also wanted Tatsumi to get away from his pursuers so that he could go help her. Nevertheless, I was cursing those who killed Megumi as well, and that had nothing to do with Sunako, so my sympathy with Shiki might had had some other roots. Simply, I felt very sorry for them. For Sunako, for Megumi, for Tooru and the girl whose name I've managed to forget already, even for that bloody Seishirou who wasn't even a Shiki.

I've got a question. Was the ending of the light novel same as the ending of anime?
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Old 2010-12-31, 19:29   Link #1968
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Originally Posted by orion View Post
So now we have a newborn werewolf who just happens to be pumped on steroids enough to hack a human with a cleaver.
But..Seishin stabbed him in the neck from behind, it's not like they fought or anything.

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Originally Posted by fukarming View Post
It is like those 70s show where when all hopes of the main characters are lost, some super heroes (or comrades who are supposed to be dead) came out of nowhere and save the day.
Honestly, i was expecting some savior to show up as soon as Sunako gave her "if i were the main character in a story.." speech.
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Old 2010-12-31, 19:30   Link #1969
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I know this is semi-terrible considering there are vampires etc. but from a realistic standpoint is 3 sticks of dynamite bundled together really enough to permanently kill tatsumi + natsuno? If we go with the only way to kill a shiki/jinrou is destroy circulatory system aka heart/decapitation then even a close range explosion is not exactly a guarenteed kill. Sure theres a chance the ribs are going to be broken by force of explosion and impale the heart but I would think besides the obvious force of explosion/burns/maybe having a limb torn off I dont think there is that good a chance for them to die. Sure its going to put them out of action for a while but from a mythbusters standpoint I would have to say it would probably be a bust. Which leads me to my next question what happens if a jinrou loses an arm? Will it regenerate/reattach or are they going to be stuck with 1 arm.
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Old 2010-12-31, 19:34   Link #1970
orion
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Originally Posted by Boduar View Post
I know this is semi-terrible considering there are vampires etc. but from a realistic standpoint is 3 sticks of dynamite bundled together really enough to permanently kill tatsumi + natsuno? If we go with the only way to kill a shiki/jinrou is destroy circulatory system aka heart/decapitation then even a close range explosion is not exactly a guarenteed kill. Sure theres a chance the ribs are going to be broken by force of explosion and impale the heart but I would think besides the obvious force of explosion/burns/maybe having a limb torn off I dont think there is that good a chance for them to die. Sure its going to put them out of action for a while but from a mythbusters standpoint I would have to say it would probably be a bust. Which leads me to my next question what happens if a jinrou loses an arm? Will it regenerate/reattach or are they going to be stuck with 1 arm.
Well Tatsumi was having a "Give up already. You're wasting my time." look as the dynamite was lit. Natsuno used the word "inconvenient". I'd bet they are both not dead because we didn't see what happened inside the hole after the dynamite was lit or exploded. (Normally people try to get out of the way as the dynamite is lit necessitating it being tossed in the direction of the person you're after.)
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Old 2010-12-31, 19:37   Link #1971
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Originally Posted by thundrakkon View Post
One way to top a small village in the middle of nowhere is to start a vampire empire in a large metropolis. A lot more people die there, and it is not as easy to find out.
Dance in the Shiki Bund, here we come? Now that could make for a pretty incredible series, and I know someone else who'd surely love it. Hmm, come to think of it, I only realize it now that Ao-chan's taken on the two most remarkable vampire roles in recent years...

But yeah, a second season is definitely never happening. The sales have been too bad to allow for a continuation. Which, honestly, doesn't bother me - even though Shiki has ended up being the series of the year for me (along with Oofuri 2) and I expected to feel severe withdrawal after the last episode, I still feel completely satisfied with the finale and would rather leave the story at that. The amount of closure felt perfectly fine, leaving some things to be pondered upon, but not too many as I'd feared from the 22 ep. constraint.
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Old 2010-12-31, 19:45   Link #1972
karice67
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Well Tatsumi was having a "Give up already. You're wasting my time." look as the dynamite was lit. Natsuno used the word "inconvenient". I'd bet they are both not dead because we didn't see what happened inside the hole after the dynamite was lit or exploded. (Normally people try to get out of the way as the dynamite is lit necessitating it being tossed in the direction of the person you're after.)
I think Natsuno's aim was actually to bury them both in that hole...and the way the explosion looked from the view we got above suggests that he succeeded. He's "inconvenient, isn't it?" may be more that he'll be buried alive, and would starve to death. Of course, to anyone who knows how dynamite is used (I think he'd have to stick it into the wall to get the desired effect), that seems quite ridiculous - unless he did manage to stick it into the wall...
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Old 2010-12-31, 20:19   Link #1973
Kakkou
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I know this is semi-terrible considering there are vampires etc. but from a realistic standpoint is 3 sticks of dynamite bundled together really enough to permanently kill tatsumi + natsuno? If we go with the only way to kill a shiki/jinrou is destroy circulatory system aka heart/decapitation then even a close range explosion is not exactly a guarenteed kill. Sure theres a chance the ribs are going to be broken by force of explosion and impale the heart but I would think besides the obvious force of explosion/burns/maybe having a limb torn off I dont think there is that good a chance for them to die. Sure its going to put them out of action for a while but from a mythbusters standpoint I would have to say it would probably be a bust. Which leads me to my next question what happens if a jinrou loses an arm? Will it regenerate/reattach or are they going to be stuck with 1 arm.
Jinrou are humans with shiki powers + super strength, so they can die like humans, albeit much harder. Remember, Yoshie was killed by a headshot from Seishirou. Tatsumi survived the mob likely because none of the villagers had the skill/luck to shoot him in a vital area, unlike a pro sniper like Seishirou and also because he's pretty tank himself + healing. From what I gathered, the fire was also due to spread into that hell hole so even if 3 sticks of dynamite didn't kill them both they'd be in no state to get out of that deep hole before the flames roast them.
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Old 2010-12-31, 20:21   Link #1974
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So much Megumi hating.. If you want to hate and blame, it should be at Natsuno, because he's the one who created the monster. Love is a powerful thing as well, he really should have just told her he didn't like her, instead of just leading her on.
Like I said before.. Tatsumi had a hand in turning her further against Kaori, most of the time she was just following his orders.
That's how I see it.
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Old 2010-12-31, 20:27   Link #1975
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So much Megumi hating.. If you want to hate and blame, it should be at Natsuno, because he's the one who created the monster. Love is a powerful thing as well, he really should have just told her he didn't like her, instead of just leading her on..
leading her on? how? by not talking to her?, he didn't pay any attention to her, he didn't show any signs that he liked her, at all...
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Old 2010-12-31, 20:29   Link #1976
Kakkou
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So much Megumi hating.. If you want to hate and blame, it should be at Natsuno, because he's the one who created the monster. Love is a powerful thing as well, he really should have just told her he didn't like her, instead of just leading her on.
Like I said before.. Tatsumi had a hand in turning her further against Kaori, most of the time she was just following his orders.
That's how I see it.
... Leading her on? It's not like he was being tsundere towards her or anything . From what we've been shown he simply ignores her. It's definitely true that he should have told her to stop stalking him from his window, but I certainly see no 'leading her on' going on. Also, even with Kaori aside, she developed a genuine liking towards killing, which she even happily expressed out loud. She was also the one who killed Tohru out of jealousy (no doubt ordered by Tatsumi) but going by her personality she was most likely jealous of their relationship to begin with and was more than happy to do it.
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Old 2010-12-31, 21:26   Link #1977
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Is that any worse though than pretty much every other shiki? It really does not matter whether she killed out of hunger, jealousy, hate or any other plethora of things. By raw body count you would see sunako as being 1000x the monster Megumi was. Either way I would have liked Megumi to live just because she was a colorful character unlike most of the Shiki who seemed fairly boring. I mean just imagine how crazy the shiki would have been if Megumi was leading the parade instead of Sunako it probably woulda been doomed to fail quick woulda been an interesting ride.
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Old 2010-12-31, 21:27   Link #1978
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... Leading her on? It's not like he was being tsundere towards her or anything . From what we've been shown he simply ignores her. It's definitely true that he should have told her to stop stalking him from his window, but I certainly see no 'leading her on' going on. Also, even with Kaori aside, she developed a genuine liking towards killing, which she even happily expressed out loud. She was also the one who killed Tohru out of jealousy (no doubt ordered by Tatsumi) but going by her personality she was most likely jealous of their relationship to begin with and was more than happy to do it.

What I meant was, that by not addressing the matter head on, it blew up in his face. Some people don't get the hint, unless you tell them straight forward. It may or may not have worked but there would've been a better chance of her not being so obsessed with him.
Most things started from orders, but yes she enjoyed it, I'll admit that. In all honesty most people who like someone get really jealous, if the person they liked was way into someone else. She really wasn't set on targeting Kaori, till Tatsumi said what he said.
It doesn't help that she has a very pretty character design and always wore the best outfits and had a good voice actor.
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Old 2010-12-31, 21:41   Link #1979
orion
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What I meant was, that by not addressing the matter head on, it blew up in his face. Some people don't get the hint, unless you tell them straight forward. It may or may not have worked but there would've been a better chance of her not being so obsessed with him.
Most things started from orders, but yes she enjoyed it, I'll admit that. In all honesty most people who like someone get really jealous, if the person they liked was way into someone else. She really wasn't set on targeting Kaori, till Tatsumi said what he said.
It doesn't help that she has a very pretty character design and always wore the best outfits and had a good voice actor.
Megumi was a stalker. They don't back down when you tell them to sod off.
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Old 2010-12-31, 22:19   Link #1980
wandering-dreamer
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My other theory is that Natsuno was
Spoiler for possible novel spoiler:
Actually, I'm curious now how Toshio was able to pull off the reveal in the novels. Here he only managed to out Chizuru because she thought Toshio was under his influence but he was actually helped by Natsuno, if Natsuno didn't bite him I don't see how that would have worked. Plus it looks like Natsuno set the fire that destroyed the village and got both Kaori and Akira out of the village, he ended up doing a lot of small things and I'm curious how all that worked out in the novels with him dead.
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