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View Poll Results: Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha The MOVIE 1st - rating
Perfect 10 59 44.03%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 39 29.10%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 12 8.96%
7 out of 10 : Good 17 12.69%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 1.49%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.75%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.75%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 3 2.24%
Voters: 134. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2010-03-31, 16:10   Link #1341
Demi.
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Fate's kuudere. She was 100% kuudere in the first season, but it waned a bit in A's and StrikerS. But she's still a kuudere because she's serious in battle and blushes when she's around people she cares a lot about.

I wont deny the moe factor represents a good portion of Fate's popularity, but she's nothing like Mio. Mio was clearly made to pander to moe fans, first season Fate is pretty much devoid of moements aside from a few near the end. Well, aside from her looks in general. Anyways, MGLN gives the same treatment to all it's characters anyways. I'd say Nanoha was tailored to be more blatantly moe than Fate at a first glance.
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Old 2010-03-31, 16:16   Link #1342
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Fate is definitely a kuudere in the first season.
Spoiler for Definition:


Which is why my blog is named after her character type...
And Mio is excessively forced 'moe,' her approach is an entirely different contrast from Fate's natural moe.
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Old 2010-03-31, 16:23   Link #1343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
I'd say Nanoha was tailored to be more blatantly moe than Fate at a first glance.
People had to get attached to her somehow. She doesn't quite have as much backstory going for her as Fate does, so 7 Arcs had to find another way to make people like her besides her personality.
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Old 2010-03-31, 16:54   Link #1344
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True. I think this because I was actually quite mad at Fate for hurting Nanoha before I knew more about Fate. I'm sure that sounds unbelievable coming from me, but it's true.
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Old 2010-03-31, 17:16   Link #1345
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Basic rule of thumb: "I think this character is cool!" does not equal a kuudere.

A kuudere, like a tsundere, is someone who acts all serious/silent/stoic/cynic but really is just a softy on the inside. Like tsundere, they hide their true emotions behind their facades. Battle-mode doesn't count, after all every character is serious in a battle. I mean if we count battle-mode then any character becomes a kuudere. Nanoha, Teana, Nove...

Fate is not a kuudere. Even in season 1 she was never hiding or masking her emotions, she really was a 'sad girl.' The girl has always worn her heart on her sleeve, that's why Nanoha sympathizes with her in the first place (sad eyes, remember?)

A much better example of a kuudere would be Ein. Especially in chapter 10, where she tries to act all calm and collected after telling Vivio that story, but inside she's all 'Awawawa! I made Vivio sad! WhatdoIdo? WhatdoIdo?'
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Old 2010-03-31, 17:27   Link #1346
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Basic rule of thumb: "I think this character is cool!" does not equal a kuudere.

A kuudere, like a tsundere, is someone who acts all serious/silent/stoic/cynic but really is just a softy on the inside. Like tsundere, they hide their true emotions behind their facades. Battle-mode doesn't count, after all every character is serious in a battle. I mean if we count battle-mode then any character becomes a kuudere. Nanoha, Teana, Nove...

Fate is not a kuudere. Even in season 1 she was never hiding or masking her emotions, she really was a 'sad girl.' The girl has always worn her heart on her sleeve, that's why Nanoha sympathizes with her in the first place (sad eyes, remember?)

A much better example of a kuudere would be Ein. Especially in chapter 10, where she tries to act all calm and collected after telling Vivio that story, but inside she's all 'Awawawa! I made Vivio sad! WhatdoIdo? WhatdoIdo?'
Fate wasn't masking her emotions in season one... What? Even to Precia she was, as it was just "yes, mother" all the time, and she never expressed how she felt. When it was whipping time, Fate just looked meekly at Precia and accepted it. And especially to Nanoha, Fate looked very emotionless at times. From the viewers perspective you can see more of her personality because it delved deeper into what she's thinking, but the characters around her have a far harder time of realizing this. I remember one of Fate's lines to Nanoha "It would be in your own interest to not interfere again, I'm not sure if I will be able to stop myself another time" -- Perhaps Nanoha has very good perception of how other people truly are, but Fate definitely tried her utmost to mask her feelings.

Anyways, I'm sure we both can agree Tomoyo is a kuudere...She's similar, really, Fate's just far more dere than her, but Fate still has that kuu side. I think you're more referring to dandere. Kuudere don't need to be expressionless or emotionless, it's simply a mix between 'cool' and 'dere'

TV Tropes agrees - "Dark Magical Girl Fate, particularly during season 1 of Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha. Later seasons has her "dere" part coming out more, with the "cool" part being reserved for combat."
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Old 2010-03-31, 17:34   Link #1347
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I say Fate wasn't masking her emotions because she wasn't masking anything. Everyone immediately noticed what a sad girl she was the moment they saw her. Not just Nanoha. If you call that masking, that's a pretty poor job.

I never said kuudere's are emotionless, I said they hide their emotions behind their facades. Fate didn't do this, she was sad throughout the entire first season, and everyone noticed. Tomoyo did hide it, and managed managed to fool pretty much everyone except Tomoya, who dug deeper and exposed the real girl underneath.

Fate wasn't exposed, she changed. She was a sad girl in S1 but got happiness as it ended, and became happy as a result. Big difference.
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Old 2010-03-31, 17:35   Link #1348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
Fate wasn't masking her emotions in season one... What? Even to Precia she was, as it was just "yes, mother" all the time, and she never expressed how she felt. When it was whipping time, Fate just looked meekly at Precia and accepted it. And especially to Nanoha, Fate looked very emotionless at times. From the viewers perspective you can see more of her personality because it delved deeper into what she's thinking, but the characters around her have a far harder time of realizing this. I remember one of Fate's lines to Nanoha "It would be in your own interest to not interfere again, I'm not sure if I will be able to stop myself another time" -- Perhaps Nanoha has very good perception of how other people truly are, but Fate definitely tried her utmost to mask her feelings.
Fate was a robot. There is a big difference between kuudere and Fate, because a Kuudere actively hides their emotions. They have them, but they just hide them. Fate didn't hide anything, because she really was a robot; she had no real emotions, because they were dead. That was the whole reason for the bridge scene, as Fate was learning what it was like to feel something for a friend. In short, her emotions started to grows.

Trying to call Fate a kuudere, basically takes away any impact of the bridge scene, and Nanoha's attempts to reach her in general. So yeah, if you want to claim Fate as a Kuudere... you just end destroying any emotional impact of Fate's growth and the Nanoha/Fate friendship in the process.

Edit: And TVtropes can be edited by anyone, so I wouldn't take that as a source. "Hey, look at this webpage I quote that I just wrote myself! That makes it official!"
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Old 2010-03-31, 17:42   Link #1349
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Fate was a robot. There is a big difference between kuudere and Fate, because a Kuudere actively hides their emotions. They have them, but they just hide them. Fate didn't hide anything, because she really was a robot; she had no real emotions, because they were dead. That was the whole reason for the bridge scene, as Fate was learning what it was like to feel something for a friend. In short, her emotions started to grows.

Trying to call Fate a kuudere, basically takes away any impact of the bridge scene, and Nanoha's attempts to reach her in general. So yeah, if you want to claim Fate as a Kuudere... you just end destroying any emotional impact of Fate's growth and the Nanoha/Fate friendship in the process.

Edit: And TVtropes can be edited by anyone, so I wouldn't take that as a source. "Hey, look at this webpage I quote that I just wrote myself! That makes it official!"
Um, no. Because Fate knew what love was. Calling her a robot is a bit of a stretch. She clearly loved Precia, and she clearly loved Linith. She obviously loves Arf too, though her priority of reaching out to Precia trumped that for the most part. The bridge scene taught Fate how to express her feelings, it didn't teach her how to have them.

Wiki can be edited and people try and claim that as offical as well. I could find a dozen other sources stating that Fate's a kuudere, either way...

Quote:
I say Fate wasn't masking her emotions because she wasn't masking anything. Everyone immediately noticed what a sad girl she was the moment they saw her. Not just Nanoha. If you call that masking, that's a pretty poor job.

I never said kuudere's are emotionless, I said they hide their emotions behind their facades. Fate didn't do this, she was sad throughout the entire first season, and everyone noticed. Tomoyo did hide it, and managed managed to fool pretty much everyone except Tomoya, who dug deeper and exposed the real girl underneath.

Fate wasn't exposed, she changed. She was a sad girl in S1 but got happiness as it ended, and became happy as a result. Big difference.
And by everyone, who is everyone? The viewers? Obviously, because she quietly says "gomenasai" to herself. The viewers heard it, but Nanoha did not.
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Old 2010-03-31, 17:47   Link #1350
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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
Wiki can be edited and people try and claim that as offical as well. I could find a dozen other sources stating that Fate's a kuudere, either way...
That's because a lot of people think "Cool = kuudere"

Like I said, Ein is a much better example of a kuudere in Nanoha. She actively tries to hide her emotions behind a seemingly calm facade, occasionally breaking to show the real girl underneath.

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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
And by everyone, who is everyone? The viewers? Obviously, because she quietly says "gomenasai" to herself. The viewers heard it, but Nanoha did not.
Might as well ask who didn't notice. Shorter list that way, as aside from Nanoha, Amy, Chrono and Lindy had no problem seeing the sad girl who just needed a bit of love.
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Old 2010-03-31, 17:49   Link #1351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
Um, no. Because Fate knew what love was. Calling her a robot is a bit of a stretch. She clearly loved Precia, and she clearly loved Linith. She obviously loves Arf too, though her priority of reaching out to Precia trumped that for the most part.
You're trivializing what abused people go through, but that's okay, because you don't really understand. When you're beaten and abused enough, you do go dead emotionally. It really is like a robot saying they love someone; they are spouting the words, but they don't really know what it means. How do we know that? Because the actions don't measure up. We *all* know that Fate's actions were wrong.

But in reality, this only proves my point more; Fate did feel a twisted sort of love for Precia... she was displaying that openly! A kuudere would have done what Fate did, but never admit out loud that they were doing it for love. They would try to act cool and downplay it, or outright deny why they were doing it.
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Old 2010-03-31, 17:54   Link #1352
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Originally Posted by Keroko
That's because most people think "Cool = kuudere"

Like I said, Ein is a much better example of a kuudere in Nanoha. She actively tries to hide her emotions behind a seemingly cool facade, occasionally breaking to show the real girl underneath.
cool+dere does = kuudere...And I never said Fate was the perfect example of a kuudere but if she were to be placed into an archtype, it would be kuudere.

Come on, this is sooo Kuudere, lol


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo
You're trivializing what abused people go through, but that's okay, because you don't really understand. When you're beaten and abused enough, you do go dead emotionally. It really is like a robot saying they love someone; they are spouting the words, but they don't really know what it means. How do we know that? Because the actions don't measure up. We *all* know that Fate's actions were wrong.

But in reality, this only proves my point more; Fate did feel a twisted sort of love for Precia... she was displaying that openly! A kuudere would have done what Fate did, but never admit out loud that they were doing it for love. They would try to act cool and downplay it, or outright deny why they were doing it.
I don't think a 9 year old being manipulated into doing wrong deeds classifies her as a robot. She was emotionally distressed, and confused -- but she was openly aware of the feelings she had for Precia.

I think you guys are taking kuudere and making it more linear than it really is. Just as tsunderes can be debated, as can kuuderes. Fate's not a kuudere of her own wishes, but I believe her mother turned her into one. As in, she doesn't do it to act cool, but I think it's something she naturally does. Mainly because of Precia, since she clearly wasn't one in the sound stages.
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Old 2010-03-31, 17:58   Link #1353
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Like I said, battle-mode doesn't count. Anyone gets serious in battle-mode. The only exceptions are the silly characters and the rookies.

Fate isn't a kuudere, she's a woobie.
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Old 2010-03-31, 18:06   Link #1354
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Like I said, battle-mode doesn't count. Anyone gets serious in battle-mode. The only exceptions are the silly characters and the rookies.

Fate isn't a kuudere, she's a woobie.
Uh, Fate was always in battle-mode in season one. When she's not she was around people she cared about, hence she could show her other side - to Arf.

And yes, Fate's a woobie, but that same page also classifies her as a 'stoic woobie' - And she has obvious elements of dere. Stoic + Dere, sounds like a kuudere to me.
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Old 2010-03-31, 18:11   Link #1355
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I don't think a 9 year old being manipulated into doing wrong deeds classifies her as a robot. She was emotionally distressed, and confused -- but she was openly aware of the feelings she had for Precia.
You defeat your own point. If she was openly displaying her feelings, then she can't be a kuudere!
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Old 2010-03-31, 18:17   Link #1356
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You know what, I think you guys are just outright confused between tsundere and kuudere now.

Using Tomoyo as an example again. She valaues reason over emotion, did she have any problem at all openly expressing how she felt about Tomoya? Tomoyo pretty much defines the kuudere archetype as well, so if she can express her feelings openly and still be a kuudere, so can Fate. The whole reason I don't like tsundere is because of their inability to express their feelings to their loved ones - kuuderes are different. Kuudere are pretty much the opposite in-fact. They're brash to the ones they don't know and have a distinct sense of kindness to those they love. Tsundere's on the other hand are so embarrassed and confused that they're more often than not cold to the ones they love and normal to everyone else. With the occasional "gentle" moment to the one they have a crush on.
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Old 2010-03-31, 18:26   Link #1357
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Tl;dr, I'll just stick to Force from now on...
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Old 2010-03-31, 18:30   Link #1358
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You know what, I think you guys are just outright confused between tsundere and kuudere now.
Um, I think you might be. Tsundere *can* show emotion. They regularly openly show jealousy and anger. Kuudere *doesn't* show emotion.

So if Kuudere = no display of emotion,
And you say Fate = displaying love which is an emotion
then you're saying Fate can't be a kuudere after all.
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Old 2010-03-31, 18:33   Link #1359
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Um, I think you might be. Tsundere *can* show emotion. They regularly openly show jealousy and anger. Kuudere *doesn't* show emotion.

So if Kuudere = no display of emotion,
And you say Fate = displaying love which is an emotion
then you're saying Fate can't be a kuudere after all.
Kuudere show emotion unless deredere isn't considered an emotion. They simply reserve their emotion for the people they love.

Anyways, luckily for myself and all of you - I have to help some one move~
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Old 2010-03-31, 18:35   Link #1360
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Kuudere's can show emotion, but they're the calm and logical, or cynical or sometimes even arrogant types. That's what they use to cover up what they really feel.
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