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Old 2013-06-11, 06:15   Link #3041
ExXentriK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayid View Post
The writter is a good one indeed. He did one hell of a job. And he knew from the start what he wanted. If you read the ending only, you wouldn't understand the real relationship of this two siblings.

One thing is clear to me and that is: from the beginning Kirino didnt ask Kyousuke about live counseling because of her otaku hobby.

It was just a stepping stone to make him fall in love with her. And the live counseling is a tool for her (to use and hide behind it) to be honest with her feelings (she hides her feelings behind the eroge she is given him, with the goal of making him fall in love with her). The hint is: the imouto eroge games she gave him to play everytime. Yes she is a big otaku. But let us not forget that it is this kind of life counseling that pushed kyousuke to know that he has feelings for her (sometimes he also made the conclusion that kirino saw him more than a brother, that is way he made everytime those weird reactions and she denied it, episode 1 season 1).

The problem with this novel is. The love that she has for her brother is hidden pretty well. The writter did a good job to hide everything very good. Looking only at the end. Then it is normal that you would say oooo yes they are siblings. But looking at the end in the light of the whole story: there are hints that they are in love. The hints are:

- Tsundere reaction (to hide her feelings)
- Kyousuke (doesnt give a fuck anymore, he is honest this time with his feelings,
this is a big change at the end, the kiss is a sign)
- Life counseling (like i said, kirino started life counseling to make
him fall in love with her, but this plot is wel hidden by the writter)
- To complete the tsundere reaction she returned and said to him are you
comming? Kirino wouldn't say this if she hated it.

The points that i have mentioned here? doesnt they sound faimilair to you? with what happend in the light of the story? but there is a big change now? the change is that Kyousuke is honest with his feels?

So you could say the life counseling that she started at the first novel has completed. Her brother has fallen in love with her. That was her goal. As towards her feelings they are the same. So if they start a life counseling again?

The only conculsion that you can make from it is: Kirino is embarassed because of the kiss and she reacts tsundere and screams for a life counseling. And like i said before, that life counseling is a wall for her that she uses to hide behind it and convey her true feelings to him. That is how cute Kirino is. That is why i like her.

A pretty good damn story, with a verry good hidden incest plot. This writter is good. It gave me a hard time to figure it out .
I agree with your point overall, however there are some details where our conclusions diverge. I honestly don't believe that Kirino used the life counseling to make Kyousuke fall in love with her. I mean she sure used it as a facade to become closer with her brother and I don't deny the fact that since the first volume she probably has romantic feelings for him, but "forcing" people into her feelings just doesn't match with Kirino's character.

To my mind, the life counseling was more like a test to see if Kyousuke shares the same feelings as her.

Spoiler for And I don't see Kirino:
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Old 2013-06-11, 06:24   Link #3042
Sakura_Tsuki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ExXentriK View Post
I agree with your point overall, however there are some details where our conclusions diverge. I honestly don't believe that Kirino used the life counseling to make Kyousuke fall in love with her. I mean she sure used it as a facade to become closer with her brother and I don't deny the fact that since the first volume she probably has romantic feelings for him, but "forcing" people into her feelings just doesn't match with Kirino's character.

To my mind, the life counseling was more like a test to see if Kyousuke shares the same feelings as her.

Spoiler for And I don't see Kirino:
That is the solution that i was searching for. reading back my story on the last page. Yes indeed you could interpret it like that . I was wrong on that. But changing the life counseling part into a test makes more sense. Yes, that is it. It makes it much more clear now for me. Thank you.

Looking at episode 1 season of Oreimo. The reactions and the sentence that kirino uses, the tsundere reactions etc. aahhaaha it is clear. What her goal was from the start. i am changing my opinion on the last page. KIRINOO IS INDEED A CUTE AND LOVELY CHARACTER ( i already knew this, but finally i can say it for sure).

EDIT: I have deleted it. i am 100% confinced now.

EDIT 2: Looking on what i wrote. And changing it. It really makes sense:

- Kirino starts life counseling to test her brother if he has the same feelings. (that
manipulative bitch manami knew about her feelings so, she changed Kyousuke
so that they would grow apart when they were young, damn i hate her even more now)
- Tsundere (to hide her feelings, if because of the life counseling (test) she came to know that he didnt like her, she would stop and he wouldnt know
that she has feelings for him)

Result: kyousuke does love her. And life counseling continues. So the love is mutual now and they continue with the life counseling part. By now we know that that life counseling is something special for them. But this time Kirino knows that he has the same feelings. So if she wants to continue the life counseling. For me this is a indirect answer that she is happy about the kiss. She did use only the life counseling to test him but it was also a wall to express her feelings for him, because she wasn't sure how to express it to him. If she said it directly she is afraid that the would hate her or something even worser than that, that is how i see it. This doesnt mean that she is manipulative nooo, because if he showed that he can't return her feelings she would have stopped. That is why she went to usa, gave him weird reactions. Everthing to so that she can test him if he has the same feelings.

At the end of this story: That life counseling in combination with the tsundere reaction and knowing that kyousuke loves her. It is clear to me that Kirino is saying indirectly: dont do this is public, dont let everyone know about our feelings. but we will do it in our special way. LIFE COUNSELING way!

Last edited by Sakura_Tsuki; 2013-06-11 at 07:26.
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Old 2013-06-11, 06:58   Link #3043
Wilshere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayid View Post
That is the solution that i was searching for. reading back my story on the last page. Yes indeed you could interpret it like that . I was wrong on that. But changing the life counseling part into a test makes more sense. Yes, that is it. It makes it much more clear now for me. Thank you.

Looking at episode 1 season of Oreimo. The reactions and the sentence that kirino uses, the tsundere reactions etc. aahhaaha it is clear. What her goal was from the start. i am changing my opinion on the last page. KIRINOO IS INDEED A CUTE AND LOVELY CHARACTER ( i already knew this, but finally i figured it out.

EDIT: I have deleted it. i am 100% confinced now.

EDIT 2: Looking on what i wrote. And changing it. It really makes sense:

- Kirino starts life counseling to test her brother if he has the same feelings (that manipulative bitch manami knew about her feelings so, she changed Kyousuke
so that they would grow apart, damn i hate her even more now)
- Tsundere (to hide her feelings, if because of the life counseling (read like test) she came to know that he didnt like her, she would stop and he wouldnt know
that she has feelings for her)

Result: kyousuke does love her. And life counseling continues. So the love is mutual now and they continue with the life counseling part. By now we know that that life counseling is something special for them. But this time Kirino knows that he has the same feelings. So she will continue the life counseling. For me this is a indirect answer that she is happy about that kiss and wants to devolp this realtionship into something more than a sibling kind of realtionship.
Both of them are head over heels for each other,hopelessly in love with each other and if you read the summary of Chapter 3 Volume 12 he says ''I have incurable love for her''. If they really did hate each other,the first thing that Kyousuke wouldve done is like threatening her cuz of her secret,tease her etc... but no he gladly offers help,in short both were lying to themselves about how they feel for each other but in the end he said enough,I am not going to lie anymore and then the confession came.
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Old 2013-06-11, 07:02   Link #3044
SigUp
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I'm working on translating the first parts of Chapter 4, as the Chinese quick translation is online. After quickly going over some passages... in some of them Kirino is just too cute, that I feel a little bit like Kirino in the part from 9:20 onwards in episode 9 of the first season.
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Old 2013-06-11, 07:46   Link #3045
seangel92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SigUp View Post
I'm working on translating the first parts of Chapter 4, as the Chinese quick translation is online. After quickly going over some passages... in some of them Kirino is just too cute, that I feel a little bit like Kirino in the part from 9:20 onwards in episode 9 of the first season.
So cute. Are there four chapters or more?
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Old 2013-06-11, 07:52   Link #3046
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So cute. Are there four chapters or more?
Six in total. So a long way to go, more than 150 pages left in the novel.
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Old 2013-06-11, 07:55   Link #3047
Sakura_Tsuki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilshere View Post
Both of them are head over heels for each other,hopelessly in love with each other and if you read the summary of Chapter 3 Volume 12 he says ''I have incurable love for her''. If they really did hate each other,the first thing that Kyousuke wouldve done is like threatening her cuz of her secret,tease her etc... but no he gladly offers help,in short both were lying to themselves about how they feel for each other but in the end he said enough,I am not going to lie anymore and then the confession came.
I was already convinved about that. But sometimes it is hard to write it down.
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Old 2013-06-11, 08:01   Link #3048
tommythecat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilshere View Post
Both of them are head over heels for each other,hopelessly in love with each other and if you read the summary of Chapter 3 Volume 12 he says ''I have incurable love for her''. If they really did hate each other,the first thing that Kyousuke wouldve done is like threatening her cuz of her secret,tease her etc... but no he gladly offers help,in short both were lying to themselves about how they feel for each other but in the end he said enough,I am not going to lie anymore and then the confession came.
I don't understand why you are trying to hard to prove that they love each other? This isn't the point of contention for most people or at least for me, it is where they decided to take the relationship after the novel ends, for some of us it is ambiguous no matter what conclusions you draw from what is known as they are all based on assumptions.

The assumption is they lied at a private ceremony to end their relationship but continue it in secret. While the converse to that is they didn't lie about it and still harbor their feelings for each other but choose not to pursue them further, which leads to Kyousuke breaking that promise and Kirino getting mad and wanting life counselling to deal with the situation.
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Old 2013-06-11, 08:15   Link #3049
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Originally Posted by tommythecat View Post
I don't understand why you are trying to hard to prove that they love each other? This isn't the point of contention for most people or at least for me, it is where they decided to take the relationship after the novel ends, for some of us it is ambiguous no matter what conclusions you draw from what is known as they are all based on assumptions.

The assumption is they lied at a private ceremony to end their relationship but continue it in secret. While the converse to that is they didn't lie about it and still harbor their feelings for each other but choose not to pursue them further, which leads to Kyousuke breaking that promise and Kirino getting mad and wanting life counselling to deal with the situation.
I can ask you the same question, were is your proof for that?

Knowing that life counseling is a special thing for kirino that she has used to test Kyousuke if he loves her or not. The tsundere reaction to hide her feelings etc. And you came to the conclusion because of the fake wedding that she didnt like the kiss so she wants a life counseling? Sorry but i dont see the logic in that. And it contradicts the reason why Kirino started the life counseling thing.

I know what you mean but have you been paying attention to the whole story? the way kirino acted trough the story? is not the end of volume 12 the same as the beginning of volume 1? but this time she knows he has the same Mutual feelings. It is logical that they would cancel the wedding. Because of the social pressure that it will cause. So they are not stupid. But that doesnt mean that they can't go back to the special live counseling life.

I dont see a reason to think that Kirino wants to start a life counseling because she wants them to be normal siblings. Doesnt fit with the line of the story. Thaking into consideration. That she uses it to express her feelings, and tsundere reaction, sudden kiss etc. Sorry but i dont see a hate reaction from Kirino towards the kiss.
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Old 2013-06-11, 08:21   Link #3050
tommythecat
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Originally Posted by mayid View Post
I can ask you the same question, were is your proof for that?

Knowing that life counseling is a special thing for kirino that she has used to test Kyousuke if he loves her or not. The tsundere reaction to hide her feelings etc. And you came to the conclusion because of the fake wedding that she didnt like the kiss so she wants a life counseling? Sorry but i dont see the logic in that. And it contradicts the reason why Kirino started the life counseling thing.

I know what you mean but have you been paying attention to the whole story? the way kirino acted trough the story? is it not the same at the end as it started but this time (Mutual love) so it wouldnt be weird if they would continue it in a secret way.

I dont see a reason to think that Kirino wants to start a life counseling because she wants them to be normal siblings. Doesnt fit the story so far.
You are basing that off more assumptions, nothing says the reason she started life counselling was to test if he loves her, whether it turned into that or not later.

I don't see the logic in lying at a wedding ceremony they are the only ones attending... maybe you do though. I never said she wants to return, please read what I type and not what you think I'm saying, I said deal with the situation that could mean they give up on trying to break it off if the ceremony break up was real or Kirino doesn't want to take the next step, at least yet. It isn't hard to understand what I'm saying, and "oh but she's tsundere it's so obvious what she wants" is conclusions based off of thin air used to support your position.
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Old 2013-06-11, 08:24   Link #3051
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Originally Posted by SigUp View Post
I'm working on translating the first parts of Chapter 4, as the Chinese quick translation is online. After quickly going over some passages... in some of them Kirino is just too cute, that I feel a little bit like Kirino in the part from 9:20 onwards in episode 9 of the first season.
Thank you for your effort with translation, thank you
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Old 2013-06-11, 08:24   Link #3052
Sakura_Tsuki
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Originally Posted by tommythecat View Post
You are basing that off more assumptions, nothing says the reason she started life counselling was to test if he loves her, whether it turned into that or not later.

I don't see the logic in lying at a wedding ceremony they are the only ones attending... maybe you do though. I never said she wants to return, please read what I type and not what you think I'm saying, I said deal with the situation that could mean they give up on trying to break it off if the ceremony break up was real or Kirino doesn't want to take the next step, at least yet. It isn't hard to understand and saying oh but she's tsundere it's so obvious what she wants is conclusions based off of thin air used to support your position.
My answer is if you dont want to read novel 1 again. Season 1 episode 1 will give you the answer for her behaviour. And these are not assumptions. These are things that much people on this thread agree with.

But in the end think what you want to think. It is but an opinion of me.
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Old 2013-06-11, 08:27   Link #3053
tommythecat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayid View Post
My answer is if you dont want to read novel 1 again. Season 1 episode 1 will give you the answer for her behaviour. And these are not assumptions. These are things that much people on this thread agree with.

But in the end think what you want to think. It is but an opinion of me.
Why are you so focused on why she started them? That has so little to do with my point in the first place. Is my position not possible? Everything I said can easily have played out that way you just don't want to admit that there is ambiguity on just where the relationship goes.

Keep the discussion civil all I'm doing is offering an alternate view to a majority opinion.
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Old 2013-06-11, 08:31   Link #3054
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Why are you so focused on why she started them? That has so little to do with my point in the first place. Is my position not possible? Everything I said can easily have played out that way you just don't want to admit that there is ambiguity on just where the relationship goes.

Keep the discussion civil all I'm doing is offering an alternate view to a majority opinion.
have i offended you? did i say that it is forbidden to have this opinion?

I say it is my opinion based on how i have understand everthying trough the story. And i came to this conclusion. And much people have this opinion too.

Have i said in a way that it is forbidden to think the way you want? i am only saying i dont see the logic in your opinion and that is why i said do you have proof. That doesnt mean that i said that is forbidden to think that it ended that way.
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Old 2013-06-11, 08:32   Link #3055
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Originally Posted by seangel92 View Post
You say that he is assuming things while you are doing the same thing. I don't know how you can put your ending how true ending while you are rejecting his ending saying that he can't prove it.

Neither of them can be proven.
Hence why I say it is ambiguous what happens...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mayid View Post
have i offended you? did i say that it is forbidden to have this opinion?

I say it is my opinion based on how i have understand everthying trough the story. And i came to this conclusion. And much people have this opinion too.

Have i said in a way that it is forbidden to think the way you want? i am only saying i dont see the logic in your opinion and that is why i said do you have proof. That doesnt mean that i said that is forbidden to think that it ended that way.
Not really offended but everyone loves to pick apart my theory while blissfully disregarding holes I see in the idea that it is cut and dry where they end up. Many of you I assume are Kirino shippers so I mean it's not unclear as to why you want to see it end that way, I like Kirino too but I have a problem with loose ends that I pick out in endings that have ambiguity in my eyes so I want to at least point out the flaws that I see where possible.
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Old 2013-06-11, 08:40   Link #3056
seangel92
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The autor made this ending for this.

Do you want a happy ending with KyoxKi continuing their relationship? I put a final kiss and she says: What are you waiting for? Keep pace!.

Do you want a ending with Kyosuke and Kirino go back to "normal siblings"? I make that they break up and you interprete that how you want.

All happy.
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Old 2013-06-11, 08:47   Link #3057
s0beit
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Originally Posted by tommythecat View Post
I don't understand why you are trying to hard to prove that they love each other?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommythecat View Post
Not really offended but everyone loves to pick apart my theory while blissfully disregarding holes I see in the idea that it is cut and dry where they end up.
I don't understand why you need to keep butting into conversations that clearly didn't involve you, as if they're criticizing you directly. I'm sorry if I seem rude, it's just that you replied to a post that didn't mention your name or "your" theory whatsoever. You're just picking fights now.
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Old 2013-06-11, 08:48   Link #3058
Wilshere
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When she was asked why does she like the Imouto genre eroge:1- they are cute and 2-she loves him but instead says she doesnt know,and to prove my point remember when ayase asked about the figurines and the Imouto-Wife eroge,she got a hint what Kirino is thinking thats why both her a Kuroneko planned to confess to him before graduation. Evidence is scattered everywhere and Im not convinced after coming this far they can forget about all what happened and return ''Normal'' siblings.
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Old 2013-06-11, 08:52   Link #3059
Sakura_Tsuki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommythecat View Post
I don't understand why you are trying to hard to prove that they love each other? This isn't the point of contention for most people or at least for me, it is where they decided to take the relationship after the novel ends, for some of us it is ambiguous no matter what conclusions you draw from what is known as they are all based on assumptions.

The assumption is they lied at a private ceremony to end their relationship but continue it in secret. While the converse to that is they didn't lie about it and still harbor their feelings for each other but choose not to pursue them further, which leads to Kyousuke breaking that promise and Kirino getting mad and wanting life counselling to deal with the situation.
I understand what you mean but, the part of Kirino getting mad at the kiss at the end because of the promise? is something that doesnt fit. And my proof are the reactions of Kirino: live counseling, running away, comming back to look if he follows her.

Yes, you could say this is not a clear ending and that life counseling can go in many ways possible. But about the kiss part and getting mad because of the promise and above that her usual reactions. Sorry i dont see the logic.

EDIT: dont be offended. I respect your interpetation. If you think that i am trying to convince you. That is not my goal.
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Old 2013-06-11, 08:53   Link #3060
SigUp
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Part 1 Chapter 4, and the story continues:

Spoiler for Part 1 Chapter 4:
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