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Old 2013-06-12, 23:07   Link #3241
liemtodaisu
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
In that case, I suspect there won't ever be anything left to discuss. Even with the Reunion short story, I highly doubt it'll do anything in the slightest to alleviate the ambiguity. We can at least try to understand where each other is coming from, even if no one will be convinced. But if you think it's a waste of your time, well...
I'll take the wasting time part back. It is quite interesting to see you guys debating after all.
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Old 2013-06-12, 23:18   Link #3242
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Sweet mother Mary my heart hurts... I love how this story is playing out and my goddamn heart doesn't want it to end.

I'm dying here
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Old 2013-06-12, 23:35   Link #3243
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I guess I would still ask the same question I asked before: how are you supposed to tell the difference? He's Kirino's brother whether he wants to be or not, and the feelings you have for your romantic partner contain all the same elements as familial love at its base (since you become a new family). So what would Kyousuke have had to have done or said differently to convince you that his feelings of caring for/cherishing Kirino ("of wanting to protect each other and make each other happy") are driven by the same feelings that would potentially have led him to do the same towards any other girl in an alternate reality? It's like there's some sort of automatic "DNQ" (or "N/A") just because, taking certain actions/feelings in isolation of others, you could argue that some of those actions don't require romance, even if the others do. As such, it's a bit "guilty until proven innocent": all feelings assumed familial unless clearly stated otherwise. I don't think you can partition feelings that cleanly.
A major component of Kyousuke's character independent of his newfound romantic feelings are, his sis-con which from my point of view is very very strong feelings of familial love for his sister which may broderline on romantic feelings these then attibutes to his notion of caring for/cherishing Kirino. That would be the line that was there before he "falls in love". The line is blurred which makes him choose Kirino over anyone else because at this point of time for Kyousuke who has just recently became closer to Kirino and doesn't want to lose that. As you say familial love is a component of romantic love therefore in this case that base component is stronger as compared to say any of the other girls.

I actually thats a major point of the siblings relationship to show the blurred area, within the novel, there are a lot of points in their relationship is referenced to as siblings despite dating.

Instead of alternate reality I would say its possible for the siblings to also come to love each other simply as siblings albeit with complexes further down the future.

Future novels could also be how the line could be distinguised or developed.
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Old 2013-06-12, 23:42   Link #3244
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post

(And Kyousuke didn't know about Kirino's dreams/hopes when he proposed to her. He finds out after by listening to her recordings. In fact, he's worried at the time that she may reject him right then and there and he'll be left with nothing. So to assume that he knew what she wanted in advance and that's why he did it doesn't seem to be supported by the text. He risked everything to do what he wanted to do for himself.)
Sorry to dig up an old post but something was bothering me about this I thought about it for a while then it dawned on me that he actually probably had a pretty good idea that marriage was her ultimate fantasy. The final eroge she gives him(as I recall) is The Imouto Wife in volume 10. Not concrete maybe but it certainly is a pretty big hint.
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Old 2013-06-12, 23:43   Link #3245
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Romantic love or familial love... What are the differences?

Since I heard the final volume of LN has released... Say, how was it turn out?
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Old 2013-06-12, 23:49   Link #3246
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Originally Posted by tommythecat View Post
Sorry to dig up an old post but something was bothering me about this I thought about it for a while then it dawned on me that he actually probably had a pretty good idea that marriage was her ultimate fantasy. The final eroge she gives him(as I recall) is The Imouto Wife in volume 10. Not concrete maybe but it certainly is a pretty big hint.
In that case Kyousuke would have realized Kirino's feelings for him much earlier because of the ammount of sister eroge she gives him. But he doesn't, he only realizes his own feelings and that took 12 novels to develop. Who knows how long it would've taken him to realize her feelings?
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Old 2013-06-12, 23:54   Link #3247
liemtodaisu
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In that case Kyousuke would have realized Kirino's feelings for him much earlier because of the ammount of sister eroge she gives him. But he doesn't, he only realizes his own feelings and that took 12 novels to develop. Who knows how long it would've taken him to realize her feelings?
Boys are sometimes dense. I realised I love my girlfriend after dating her for a year .
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Old 2013-06-12, 23:55   Link #3248
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In that case Kyousuke would have realized Kirino's feelings for him much earlier because of the ammount of sister eroge she gives him. But he doesn't, he only realizes his own feelings and that took 12 novels to develop. Who knows how long it would've taken him to realize her feelings?
He knows her feelings, at the very least from volume 11. After that he could reflect on just what if anything were the meaning behind the things she's done in the past.
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Old 2013-06-12, 23:59   Link #3249
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The line is blurred which makes him choose Kirino over anyone else because at this point of time for Kyousuke who has just recently became closer to Kirino and doesn't want to lose that.
But this contradicts what Volume 12 says: that he understands that Kirino is grounded in reality, and that there's a very high chance that she would be disgusted and reject him trying to take their relationship in that direction. That he was fearful of this rejection and that this would cause them to be distant as they were before. But nevertheless, despite this risk, and the other hurdles, he was willing to reject all the other heroines cleanly and make his decision clear to her.

Why take this risk if he just doesn't want to lose what he has? It's absolutely not necessary in any way.

I don't think his "familial love" for Kirino had anything to do with it.

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As you say familial love is a component of romantic love therefore in this case that base component is stronger as compared to say any of the other girls.
It's not like she got a "Familial Love Stat Bonus" that caused her to have the most Attack Points in this Romantic Card Battle Game. If that were the case, you'd have people falling in love with their siblings like crazy. If anything, it's a penalty because it causes so many more risks and complications.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tommythecat View Post
Sorry to dig up an old post but something was bothering me about this I thought about it for a while then it dawned on me that he actually probably had a pretty good idea that marriage was her ultimate fantasy. The final eroge she gives him(as I recall) is The Imouto Wife in volume 10. Not concrete maybe but it certainly is a pretty big hint.
See above. There is nothing to suggest he expects her to accept his confession, no matter how much they cherish each other. He didn't confess because he knew how she felt. He confessed because he knew how he felt.

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He knows her feelings, at the very least from volume 11.
No, the conversation that Manami and Kirino had about her feelings was not revealed to him in Volume 11. He doesn't know Kirino's feelings. (And by all indications, he hadn't figured them out even leading up to the confession.)
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Old 2013-06-13, 00:15   Link #3250
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He knows her feelings, at the very least from volume 11. After that he could reflect on just what if anything were the meaning behind the things she's done in the past.
When else did he discover Kirino's feelings then? Like relentlessflame said, that conversation between Manami and Kirino was private
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Old 2013-06-13, 01:36   Link #3251
BladeEntity
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
But this contradicts what Volume 12 says: that he understands that Kirino is grounded in reality, and that there's a very high chance that she would be disgusted and reject him trying to take their relationship in that direction. That he was fearful of this rejection and that this would cause them to be distant as they were before. But nevertheless, despite this risk, and the other hurdles, he was willing to reject all the other heroines cleanly and make his decision clear to her.

Why take this risk if he just doesn't want to lose what he has? It's absolutely not necessary in any way.

I don't think his "familial love" for Kirino had anything to do with it.
The reason he took the risk because there was nothing left for him to lose, if she rejected him she would go overseas, his actions for the confession was to show that he was determined and sincere in his feelings. It was his last attempt to convey his sincere feelings.

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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
It's not like she got a "Familial Love Stat Bonus" that caused her to have the most Attack Points in this Romantic Card Battle Game. If that were the case, you'd have people falling in love with their siblings like crazy. If anything, it's a penalty because it causes so many more risks and complications.
Since you stated earlier that Romantic love has familial love as its base I used the same logic to try and analyze Kyousuke's feelings for Kirino and why he would choose her over the rest. Which leads me to the conclusion that Kyousuke's feelings are a strong combination of both romantic love and familial love that allows him to choose that her happiness means the most to him.

For a brother who is a self proclaimed sis-con, Kirino being his imouto IMO accounts to some of his feelings toward his sister.

I think this could go on forever so lets agree to disagree.

If he annouces that this will be his next work I would die laughing:
俺の旧彼女はこんあに可愛いわけがない
Chances of it happening is like 0.001% so I'll just keep dreaming on my own.
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Last edited by BladeEntity; 2013-06-13 at 01:49.
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Old 2013-06-13, 02:09   Link #3252
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Originally Posted by tommythecat View Post
He knows her feelings, at the very least from volume 11. After that he could reflect on just what if anything were the meaning behind the things she's done in the past.
No,he didnt know about her feelings,he finally knows his real sincere feelings at the end of Volume 10 when he rejects Ayase(flashback),he also prepared for being rejected by Kirino.
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Old 2013-06-13, 02:16   Link #3253
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The reason he took the risk because there was nothing left for him to lose, if she rejected him she would go overseas, his actions for the confession was to show that he was determined and sincere in his feelings. It was his last attempt to convey his sincere feelings.
I think there's still something considerable to lose, at least in his opinion (vol. 12 ch. 3). Her going overseas is one thing, but she was still planning to stay in touch this time and keep a good relationship with her brother. He risked souring their finally-built-up relationship altogether (and going back to a second "cold war" that this time could have lasted indefinitely), which is worse than just her leaving. It's not the sort of thing he can say and easily take back.

And besides that, to accomplish this, he gave up all the other romantic connections in his life, so that he had no "escape route". Even if she had rejected him, the other girls he rejected aren't going to want to catch him on the rebound after that.

Anyway, I don't intend to keep arguing this point, either, but I'm just surprised that there's disagreement in this particular area since it seems (to me anyway) to be covered pretty clearly in the novel itself. I know there are a lot of other areas that leave a lot more room for interpretation, but these points don't seem so murky to me.
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Old 2013-06-13, 02:31   Link #3254
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I think there's still something considerable to lose, at least in his opinion (vol. 12 ch. 3). Her going overseas is one thing, but she was still planning to stay in touch this time and keep a good relationship with her brother. He risked souring their finally-built-up relationship altogether (and going back to a second "cold war" that this time could have lasted indefinitely), which is worse than just her leaving. It's not the sort of thing he can say and easily take back.

And besides that, to accomplish this, he gave up all the other romantic connections in his life, so that he had no "escape route". Even if she had rejected him, the other girls he rejected aren't going to want to catch him on the rebound after that.

Anyway, I don't intend to keep arguing this point, either, but I'm just surprised that there's disagreement in this particular area since it seems (to me anyway) to be covered pretty clearly in the novel itself. I know there are a lot of other areas that leave a lot more room for interpretation, but these points don't seem so murky to me.
Which leads me to wonder why, he decided to confess to her to he think that he could stop her for leaving, I think that he knew her feelings, the thing he couldn't account for was whether she would disregarded the fact they were siblings and date. If he had that much to lose why did he do it in the first place. He had a ring ready, to do that and ask her to marry him despite her repeated comments on how it was disgusting he continued to press on, I believe he knew her feelings, by then. I think rejecting them at the point of time he did was important to show his determination when he decided her wanted to confess.

TBF rejecting someone now doesn't mean you may reject them 10 years later. Kyousuke even stated the person he like 3 years ago was not Kirino so feelings may change.

Lets just agree to disagree here.
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Old 2013-06-13, 03:17   Link #3255
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Which leads me to wonder why, he decided to confess to her to he think that he could stop her for leaving, I think that he knew her feelings, the thing he couldn't account for was whether she would disregarded the fact they were siblings and date. If he had that much to lose why did he do it in the first place. He had a ring ready, to do that and ask her to marry him despite her repeated comments on how it was disgusting he continued to press on, I believe he knew her feelings, by then. I think rejecting them at the point of time he did was important to show his determination when he decided her wanted to confess.

TBF rejecting someone now doesn't mean you may reject them 10 years later. Kyousuke even stated the person he like 3 years ago was not Kirino so feelings may change.

Lets just agree to disagree here.
If he ends with Manami after the 10 yr thingy,I will flip dead
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Old 2013-06-13, 03:50   Link #3256
s0beit
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I think that he knew her feelings
And you have never once stated why you think that which hasn't been refuted, while he has (and so has the novel, many times). You can't just state things directly contradictory to the work itself.

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If he had that much to lose why did he do it in the first place. He had a ring ready, to do that and ask her to marry him despite her repeated comments on how it was disgusting he continued to press on, I believe he knew her feelings, by then.
Him having the ring beforehand doesn't really prove much. I guess you could say that it infers he thought he would succeed, but he himself says he believes it's possible he will fail, and if you don't believe him, or at least the conversation between them, then you might as well just write your own story. I know Kyousuke is supposed to be an unreliable narrator, but there are limits.

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I think rejecting them at the point of time he did was important to show his determination when he decided her wanted to confess.
If he knew the result either way, why would he? It's more likely he rejected them because he knew who he loved, and that was the end of it. There's no reason to string them along any further, even if he failed.

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TBF rejecting someone now doesn't mean you may reject them 10 years later. Kyousuke even stated the person he like 3 years ago was not Kirino so feelings may change.
I will just say that if you're looking for an anti-incest retcon in the novel packaged with the BD, you will certainly be disappointed.

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Lets just agree to disagree here.
Agreeing to disagree really only works after you've dropped the point, but you seem intent on forging forward.
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Old 2013-06-13, 04:25   Link #3257
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Part 1 Chapter 5

Spoiler for Part 1 Chapter 5:
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Old 2013-06-13, 04:33   Link #3258
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How can there be a doubt about Kyousuke not being serieus about his love for his sister?
Come one man. Do you really think that Kyousuke knew that Kirino liked him. Give me the evidence were he clearly states that he knew about Kirino her feelings. Or do you say this because of the break up at the end of volume 12.

Have you read the summary's of volume 12 or not? at the confession he clearly states that he is crazy in love with her. He was surprised because of what kirino told him that she too wanted to confess to him. Do you think that sombody who knew the feelings of sombody else would be surprised like that? no i dont think so.

The point you are missing is. Kyousuke started in novel 1 just a plain boy who doesnt have feelings for anyone. Maybe he loved manami but he saw her more as family or a grandma who gives him advice etc looking the episodes again, he came to her for advice only and slowly this changed and he became more attached to Kirino and les attached to Manami. Kirino gets her chanse to test him trough life counseling if he liked her or not. There are all hints over the place for this claim. I am not talking rubish here.

Step by step, kyousuke began to devolp feelings for his sister till the point he fell really in love with her.

To break every possible relationship just to say oooo i want to give my sister the feeling that she is the most important to me and make her dream realise. Doesnt match up with the story. Because when did he ever say: he knows of the feelings of Kirino? in the whole story even when he dated her in volume 12. He everytime said I DONT UNDERSTAND WHAT THIS GIRL IS THINKING?

EDIT: the ring he bought was a Christmas present. To give it to her. He had no intention to propose or something when he bought the ring. He was even surprised when Kirino said is this a wedding ring? and he stated clearly noo. So that is not a reason to say he knews about her dream.
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Old 2013-06-13, 04:57   Link #3259
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Part 1 Chapter 5

Spoiler for Part 1 Chapter 5:
Thanks for the translation, and was certainly unexpected that published it so early
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Old 2013-06-13, 04:59   Link #3260
Densetsuhakai
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Part 1 Chapter 5

Spoiler for Part 1 Chapter 5:
Haha,good job Kyousuke.
Not affectionate at all?If that was not a affectionate behaviour,then what is a affectionate behaviour to Kyousuke?
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