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Old 2013-06-14, 05:56   Link #3461
Densetsuhakai
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Originally Posted by frivolity View Post
I don't think that's the only issue though. The original discussion is about the status of the red herrings compared to the actual clues and whether the story had been written in such a way that the so-called red herrings had been played up to the extent that they started to trump the actual clues. This issue would still apply even if Kirino had not been Kyousuke's sister.

For one, if Kirino hadn't been siblings with Kyousuke, she wouldn't be the titular character anymore . Without the sibling constraints, there would also be the question of whether Kyousuke truly had romantic feelings for Kirino if he had known her for all his life and never started dating her, but chose to date another girl instead. The way I see it, a non-sister Kirino would have a status similar to Manami's in this story.
I don't think that's quite right.Didn't Kyousuke said himself that he would be in love with her if she wasn't his sister,because she's so cool and beautiful? (Volume 8 last chapter,I think).
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Old 2013-06-14, 06:01   Link #3462
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Originally Posted by Densetsuhakai View Post
I don't think that's quite right.Didn't Kyousuke said himself that he would be in love with her if she wasn't his sister,because she's so cool and beautiful? (Volume 8 last chapter,I think).
Hmm he did fall in love with her after all lol
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Old 2013-06-14, 06:02   Link #3463
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Hmm he did fall in love with her after all lol
Haha,yeah that's right.It would be the same if she wasn't his sister.
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Old 2013-06-14, 06:03   Link #3464
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Originally Posted by Densetsuhakai View Post
I don't think that's quite right.Didn't Kyousuke said himself that he would be in love with her if she wasn't his sister,because she's so cool and beautiful? (Volume 8 last chapter,I think).
In this case, we're talking about what would have happened if their status as siblings did not exist but the events of the story remained the same. Given that they are siblings, Kyousuke's quote can be interpreted to mean that he was in love with her but was holding back due to being her brother. But if they were not siblings, and Kyousuke says the same thing without changing his behaviour, then the interpretation completely changes.
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Old 2013-06-14, 06:04   Link #3465
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Originally Posted by Wilshere View Post
In other words ''hidden incest story plot''??? It seems they story has been planned from Volume 1 to me.
Well, consider frivolity's point. I always saw the "smoke" in terms of Kirino's feelings all along, but even I suspected that the author had given himself an "easy way out" with Kuroneko because a) Kyousuke already loved her, b) she already accepted Kirino and sacrificed herself for her, c) Kirino will always be Kyousuke's one and only little sister no matter what. So although I totally agree that the Kyousuke x Kirino story is at the center of this work (and Kirino's if route was my favourite of the first PSP game), even I didn't predict this as the most likely ending. And if they had gone the way I supposed, while still affirming and recognizing the importance of the relationship Kyousuke and Kirino have, I think a lot of people would have said that the story wrapped itself up in a suitable (if predictable/non-original) way.

In retrospect it's crystal clear that this didn't account for everything that the current ending accounts for in terms of the elements being referenced... but we wouldn't know what we were missing.


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Originally Posted by frivolity View Post
For one, if Kirino hadn't been siblings with Kyousuke, she wouldn't be the titular character anymore . Without the sibling constraints, there would also be the question of whether Kyousuke truly had romantic feelings for Kirino if he had known her for all his life and never started dating her, but chose to date another girl instead. The way I see it, a non-sister Kirino would have a status similar to Manami's in this story.
Nah, there are twists that can be applied that are more subtle than that. For example, she could be an adopted sibling or a sibling through re-marriage. Or, otherwise, assume that the title would change. As long as she's still at the center of the narrative, and the story revolved around rekindling a broken relationship through private life counselling about a shared secret, it would be clear (at least, to the degree that it ever is) that the destination for the couple was love and not just "friendship".
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Old 2013-06-14, 06:05   Link #3466
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Apparently what he said to Ayase when she and Kirino did not make up was never a lie tho. Funny thing that he will shout again those words (this time he really means it) 'I love my little sister' in the same park I assume.
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Old 2013-06-14, 06:08   Link #3467
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Still, I agree with the horserace stuff. If they could only remove some of that from every romcom and replace it with them being in a relationship for a while, that would be super. I love seeing budding relationships.
One word: Clannad.
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Old 2013-06-14, 06:11   Link #3468
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Nah, there are twists that can be applied that are more subtle than that. For example, she could be an adopted sibling or a sibling through re-marriage. Or, otherwise, assume that the title would change. As long as she's still at the center of the narrative, and the story revolved around rekindling a broken relationship through private life counselling about a shared secret, it would be clear (at least, to the degree that it ever is) that the destination for the couple was love and not just "friendship".
Heh, or maybe have Kirino as a friend that calls Kyousuke her brother for no apparent reason. Reminds me of a visual novel whose premise is a protagonist with three women whom he refers to as mother ...
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Old 2013-06-14, 06:16   Link #3469
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Originally Posted by frivolity View Post
For one, if Kirino hadn't been siblings with Kyousuke, she wouldn't be the titular character anymore .
If you're going to follow that line of reasoning, he wouldn't have met anyone in the story, except, maybe Manami. What fun.

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Originally Posted by frivolity View Post
Without the sibling constraints, there would also be the question of whether Kyousuke truly had romantic feelings for Kirino if he had known her for all his life and never started dating her, but chose to date another girl instead. The way I see it, a non-sister Kirino would have a status similar to Manami's in this story.
Once again, not comparable. You're working off of faulty premises.
She is already the main character. Sure, if in your version of the story she is removed as a main character... then, yeah, I guess. That's not what we're talking about here, though. You might as well say the story would have been vastly different if it was about an 8.0 earthquake. Indeed, but it bears little relevance to the conversation.

Same central role, same consultations, just different circumstances = Same outcome, but far more obvious.

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One word: Clannad.
Seen it, obviously.
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Old 2013-06-14, 06:31   Link #3470
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If you're going to follow that line of reasoning, he wouldn't have met anyone in the story, except, maybe Manami. What fun.

Once again, not comparable. You're working off of faulty premises.
She is already the main character. Sure, if in your version of the story she is removed as a main character... then, yeah, I guess. That's not what we're talking about here, though. You might as well say the story would have been vastly different if it was about an 8.0 earthquake. Indeed, but it bears little relevance to the conversation.

Same central role, same consultations, just different circumstances = Same outcome, but far more obvious.
No, we're talking about what would have happened if they weren't siblings but the events of the story remained the same up until volume 11. That gives a very different interpretation of the events.

Same central role, same consultations, just different circumstances = different interpretation, and possibly different outcome in volume 12.

While we're on that topic, why does being the central character automatically imply that said character will be the winner in the end?
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Old 2013-06-14, 06:36   Link #3471
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This thread moved fast while I was sleeping

Whatever the circumstances of the ending they mended their broken relationship as siblings and have a pseudo relationship as lovers. I choose to believe the familial love is most important to them so the romantic love comes second in my eyes which can mean many things down the road, from eventually cooling off and moving away from it to eventually getting married because it was true love.

Don't hurt me.
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Old 2013-06-14, 06:37   Link #3472
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Originally Posted by frivolity View Post
No, we're talking about what would have happened if they weren't siblings but the events of the story remained the same up until volume 11. That gives a very different interpretation of the events.

Same central role, same consultations, just different circumstances = different interpretation, and possibly different outcome in volume 12.

While we're on that topic, why does being the central character automatically imply that said character will be the winner in the end?

Well,it's kinda a cliche that the central female character is the one who's going to win in the end.Only a handful of RomCom Animes doesn't end with the central character as the winner.

And I think it would be exactly the same outcome if Kirino wasn't his sister.It only would probably be simpler than before because nothing would stand between their relationship.
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Old 2013-06-14, 06:39   Link #3473
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Assume the following: they are not siblings but lived together as brother and sister when they were young and assume the same story flow,ehh I dont think Kyousuke would last 3 episodes,him defending eroge and stuff lol he will be kicked plus the plot must be different i mean if he discovered her hobby,knowing that they are not real siblings I think its crystal clear that she has ulterior motives,to continue if he really started dating Kuroneko and same events happen,he got dumped,she inspired him and stuff,no this is very unrealistic and this story made that they are siblings and this outcome that we have ,well maybe no one really expected it until maybe by Volume 8 and particularly Volume 11 with the Manami-Kirino secret chat and still we had our doubts cuz they are siblings.
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Old 2013-06-14, 06:42   Link #3474
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This thread moved fast while I was sleeping

Whatever the circumstances of the ending they mended their broken relationship as siblings and have a pseudo relationship as lovers. I choose to believe the familial love is most important to them so the romantic love comes second in my eyes which can mean many things down the road, from eventually cooling off and moving away from it to eventually getting married because it was true love.

Don't hurt me.
HIT!

If he was adopted, I'm sure that you wouldn't say that they love like siblings more than lovers, so... Why? They would grow up in the same roof like siblings but how they aren't blood related, all is good with their love, isn't it?.
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Old 2013-06-14, 06:47   Link #3475
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Assume the following: they are not siblings but lived together as brother and sister when they were young and assume the same story flow,ehh I dont think Kyousuke would last 3 episodes,him defending eroge and stuff lol he will be kicked plus the plot must be different i mean if he discovered her hobby,knowing that they are not real siblings I think its crystal clear that she has ulterior motives,to continue if he really started dating Kuroneko and same events happen,he got dumped,she inspired him and stuff,no this is very unrealistic and this story made that they are siblings and this outcome that we have ,well maybe no one really expected it until maybe by Volume 8 and particularly Volume 11 with the Manami-Kirino secret chat and still we had our doubts cuz they are siblings.
Yes, of course the story would change. If Kirino and Kyousuke weren't biological or even legal siblings, the story would probably have ended in 3 volumes maximum .

My earlier post was the follow-up of an unrelated point stemming from an earlier convoluted discussion about red herrings that has spanned a number of pages. This somehow led to a hypothetical case of how the interpretation of the story would change if they weren't siblings but the events of the story somehow did not change. In this case, if the sibling barrier didn't exist and yet the story somehow extended all the way to Volume 11, then the interpretation and ending would most likely have to be revised.
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Old 2013-06-14, 06:50   Link #3476
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I don't subscribe to the "just because we aren't related makes it okay" opinion. When you grow up with someone real family or not it has a special meaning to most people. My brother is adopted but I never thought "oh he's not really family so it makes it okay to do such and such"(since he's not an imouto it's hard to come up with something that would be inappropriate for me to do with him lol)

The not related card is mainly used to skirt around the issue of incest since they can't allow stuff like that on japanese TV as I understand it from past posts in this thread.

Edit: I'm not saying I can't enjoy stories like that I just have a different outlook on that perception in real life, and since I like Oreimo so much I hold it closer to my personal standards. That's not the case with just every other anime that has the same themes.
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Old 2013-06-14, 06:54   Link #3477
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I don't subscribe to the "just because we aren't related makes it okay" opinion. When you grow up with someone real family or not it has a special meaning to most people. My brother is adopted but I never thought "oh he's not really family so it makes it okay to do such and such"(since he's not an imouto it's hard to come up with something that would be inappropriate for me to do with him lol)

The not related card is mainly used to skirt around the issue of incest since they can't allow stuff like that on japanese TV as I understand it from past posts in this thread.
So you think that they might play the non-blood related thingy for this anime at the end???
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Old 2013-06-14, 06:55   Link #3478
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I don't subscribe to the "just because we aren't related makes it okay" opinion. When you grow up with someone real family or not it has a special meaning to most people. My brother is adopted but I never thought "oh he's not really family so it makes it okay to do such and such"(since he's not an imouto it's hard to come up with something that would be inappropriate for me to do with him lol)

The not related card is mainly used to skirt around the issue of incest since they can't allow stuff like that on japanese TV as I understand it from past posts in this thread.
But the point is that Kirino and Kyousuke didn't grow up like normal siblings would have (blood related or not).Their relationship stopped for like 3 years.They become strangers and Kirino couldn't grow out of her love like a normal sister would do after a span of time.That's the main reason why the most people think (me,too) they will continue their "love affair".They are more than normal siblings now and they can't get back to be normal siblings again.
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Old 2013-06-14, 07:02   Link #3479
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But the point is that Kirino and Kyousuke didn't grow up like normal siblings would have (blood related or not).Their relationship stopped for like 3 years.They become strangers and Kirino couldn't grow out of her love like a normal sister would do after a span of time.That's the main reason why the most people think (me,too) they will continue their "love affair".They are more than normal siblings now and they can't get back to be normal siblings again.
This is correct, she couldn't grow out of love and it morphed into a different kind of love. However there isn't anything saying that now reconnected they wont start cancel some of those romantic feelings out and familial love will remain intact while the romantic will lessen as the reconnect. There is nothing, absolutely nothing to say that "can't go back to normal siblings" they aren't really normal to begin with but normal doesn't mean there isn't still romantic feelings there they can just choose to not pursue it any further.

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So you think that they might play the non-blood related thingy for this anime at the end???
They don't have to since it will be streamed. I have no clue how it's going to play out. Hopefully it gives stronger clues as to where the story goes at the end since the LN it's hard to judge.
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Old 2013-06-14, 07:05   Link #3480
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I don't subscribe to the "just because we aren't related makes it okay" opinion. When you grow up with someone real family or not it has a special meaning to most people. My brother is adopted but I never thought "oh he's not really family so it makes it okay to do such and such"(since he's not an imouto it's hard to come up with something that would be inappropriate for me to do with him lol)

The not related card is mainly used to skirt around the issue of incest since they can't allow stuff like that on japanese TV as I understand it from past posts in this thread.
You are you but other people could have a different opinion like people that grow in the same roof but they aren't blood related and in a certain moment they discover that they love each other. That is no your case but that don't make that the other people is wrong and it's is bad.

This is my first incest history and I have discovered that I don't care about a love history with a incest without depravity like Oreimo. Oreimo is still better than Twilight.

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But the point is that Kirino and Kyousuke didn't grow up like normal siblings would have (blood related or not).Their relationship stopped for like 3 years.They become strangers and Kirino couldn't grow out of her love like a normal sister would do after a span of time.That's the main reason why the most people think (me,too) they will continue their "love affair".They are more than normal siblings now and they can't get back to be normal siblings again.
Their relationship stopped for like 10 years.
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