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Old 2013-06-27, 14:56   Link #4021
Sakura_Tsuki
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Originally Posted by Rampant View Post
I couldn't agree more. If one thing is clear from the ending it's that neither of them is certain what the rules need to be or where they go from here. They're aware of the risks involved in openly pursuing a romantic relationship at their ages and they are not willing to bear those consequences. At the same time, they finally understand one another and can be happy together.

That doesn't answer the question of what they'll do once they're both adults, and it shouldn't because they don't know that answer yet. It's a huge decision and they have years to consider it first. I find this far more satisfying than an assertion that everything eventually works out. Their story as adults, whether they are lovers or not, is going to be complicated. It would only work as the plot of a new series, not as the epilogue to this one.

I'd read it.
A very interesting conclusion.

Do you know what the problem I have with this story and why I see the ending in another light?

If you throw too much real life knowledge on it. It will become illogical to make some sense out of it .

We are talking about a girl who is 14 Years, a model, an athlete and playing eroges about imouto's with her brother? To give him some signals????? Real life material indeed LOL.

Those are the first things who pop up into my mind. And not the question 'if they can stay together or not in the future'.

Seeing the development of the story. It is just a fantasy and it can't happen in real life. The fact is: this is not an adult story so:

it is logical that it doesn't mention those adult like developments. That is why I keep laughing if I start to use some common sense on this story.

Maybe I am exaggerating. But don't be offended (I respect your opinion) I am only stating:

why I think this story will become a 'TROLL STORY' if you take it too seriously.

Because for me it is a fantasy story. I would rather choose a 'everything will be fine and they live happy ever' kind of ending (based on hints). Rather than choosing an ending like: well they could break up and go separate ways. It is kind of depressing and not fitting the illogical fantasy like the story of Oreimo. It is like you are giving a conclusion based on real life (serious) to a story who is illogical from the start.

Well if somebody could present me a girl of 14 years (who loved her brother from childhood in a romantically way) and plays eroges with him. I would change my opinion right now
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Old 2013-06-27, 15:05   Link #4022
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I can't agree more with @mayid. I mean, there is no way a 14 year old girl can love her brother(since she was like 9-10) in a very romantic way and has a huge collection of Imouto-type eroge. Again, this is a work of fiction, how many times has it been stated in the novel ' don't mix 2D with 3D''? The author is trying to say that not everything you see in 2D has to apply in 3D well, at least that's how I understand it. Applying real life logic in this kind of story is off the mark.
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Old 2013-06-27, 15:20   Link #4023
tommythecat
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Originally Posted by mayid View Post
why I think this story will become a 'TROLL STORY' if you take it too seriously.

Because for me it is a fantasy story. I would rather choose a 'everything will be fine and they live happy ever' kind of ending (based on hints). Rather than choosing an ending like: well they could break up and go separate ways. It is kind of depressing and not fitting the illogical fantasy like the story of Oreimo. It is like you are giving a conclusion based on real life (serious) to a story who is illogical from the start.

Well if somebody could present me a girl of 14 years (who loved her brother from childhood in a romantically way) and plays eroges with him. I would change my opinion right now
But the thing is it isn't depressing viewing it as they cool down romantically after having reinvigorated their relationship together. They still love each other and are important to each other and wont let outside forces pull them apart again. The rift between them has disappeared.

The story may have illogical plot elements but the world is firmly grounded in reality, as reality comes crashing down on Kyousuke when he is forced to move out. Saying it is just all fantasy and just take everything at face value is boring, I like to see depth(whether it is intended to be there or not by the author) beyond the obvious happily ever after, which in this case is never really clearly defined.
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Old 2013-06-27, 17:09   Link #4024
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Some stories do fall apart if you apply any real world logic to them. They're bad stories.

Good stories can include unusual or impossible elements, but events have to follow the logic we expect from our own experience of reality. A story about space aliens arriving on earth needn't be a direct metaphor for first contact between different Earth cultures, but it does need to account for the effects that we know flow from these events. An orphaned protagonist can learn that he has a secret magical heritage, but that discovery can't make all of his problems vanish.

A pair of teenage siblings in a romantic relationship is certainly unusual, but it's not magic or invasion from outer space. It could happen. Given the number of people in the world it almost certainly is happening, somewhere. This story is a comment on how that might play out, and it doesn't shy from real world problems.
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Old 2013-06-27, 17:21   Link #4025
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Originally Posted by Rampant View Post
A pair of teenage siblings in a romantic relationship is certainly unusual, but it's not magic or invasion from outer space. It could happen. Given the number of people in the world it almost certainly is happening, somewhere. This story is a comment on how that might play out, and it doesn't shy from real world problems.
Yeah, I think this is the sort of "balance" the ending + epilogue tried to achieve, particularly when you read Kyousuke's monologue at the very end of the book: "a tale of two normal siblings and their slightly unusual love story" where the ending is not yet known. As you said in your earlier post, they don't know what the future will bring, but they're still kids. Figuring that out together is the new adventure they're embarking on now, and is really a whole new story for them. I think this sort of balance between "normal" and "slightly abnormal" is really central to the whole work (so dismissing the whole thing as "fantasy" isn't really right, but neither is assuming that everything can only end up in the "normal" way).
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Old 2013-06-27, 18:20   Link #4026
Sakura_Tsuki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rampant View Post
Some stories do fall apart if you apply any real world logic to them. They're bad stories.

Good stories can include unusual or impossible elements, but events have to follow the logic we expect from our own experience of reality. A story about space aliens arriving on earth needn't be a direct metaphor for first contact between different Earth cultures, but it does need to account for the effects that we know flow from these events. An orphaned protagonist can learn that he has a secret magical heritage, but that discovery can't make all of his problems vanish.

A pair of teenage siblings in a romantic relationship is certainly unusual, but it's not magic or invasion from outer space. It could happen. Given the number of people in the world it almost certainly is happening, somewhere. This story is a comment on how that might play out, and it doesn't shy from real world problems.
I am not talking about a romantic relationship between a pair of teenage siblings. It is obvious that this kind of relationship could happen in real life. But that is not what I am talking about.

I am talking about the part of playing eroge with your little sister who has a hidden agenda for playing eroges with you (and even at the age she started to like eroge? Is also very questionable). Is this really something that could happen in real life?

And I forget to mention the interaction with other girls, who all tried to confess to Kyousueke. Is it really weird if you take this story as a fantasy?. Well some things in the story could happen in real life. I agree. But how the story plays out, it is too weird for me to make any real life sense out of it (for the big part).

And about the ending. I didn't say that your way of thinking is not possible. Yes indeed. It could play that way. I am not criticizing you, I only say why I have a problem to take this story too seriously and apply to much real life logic on it.

Edit: I ennoy it the way it is presented by the Author. But digging too much into the story, for me it is not worth it.

Edit 2: The real life cases about incest happen for the most time between siblings who lived apart from each other for a long time. There are cases of teenagers
engaging in realtionship (having sex) but they were never seperated from each other. But that is also very questionable if that relationship is based on
some pure love. Last time i read an article about a boy having sex with his siter (but she didn't like it). They found out he did this out of sexual frustration.
So linking this kind of real life things to Oreimo is also not logical.

beside at a age of 14 (like kirino). It is
weird to be so in love with your brother and playing eroges to give him some hints that 'you love him'.

Last edited by Sakura_Tsuki; 2013-06-27 at 19:20.
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Old 2013-06-27, 18:45   Link #4027
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Originally Posted by mayid View Post
I am not criticizing you, I only say why I have a problem to take this story too seriously and apply to much real life logic on it.

I ennoy it the way it is presented by the Author. I don't like to search too much behind it.
The author complains about unrealistic, consequence-free endings in great detail. You can interpret the story however you like, but I can't see how regarding it as completely disconnected from reality is enjoying it the way it's presented by the author.
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Old 2013-06-27, 18:51   Link #4028
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I am not criticizing you, I only say why I have a problem to take this story too seriously and apply to much real life logic on it.
The only probably I have with this argument is that it can be taken (by others) to mean that the work is not worthy of detailed consideration or analysis. I personally think that does a bit of a disservice to the writing, which is pretty measured and balanced in most of its portrayals of things (including the way the story ended). While obviously recognizing that this is a work of fiction, I think there's enough meat there to warrant conversation for those who want to have it. That doesn't mean everyone will need to participate, obviously.
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Old 2013-06-27, 18:57   Link #4029
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
The only probably I have with this argument is that it can be taken (by others) to mean that the work is not worthy of detailed consideration or analysis. I personally think that does a bit of a disservice to the writing, which is pretty measured and balanced in most of its portrayals of things (including the way the story ended). While obviously recognizing that this is a work of fiction, I think there's enough meat there to warrant conversation for those who want to have it. That doesn't mean everyone will need to participate, obviously.
It is just my opinion Relentlessflame, and nothing more. Feel free to interpret it the way you want.

EDIT: I am not trying to do a disservice to the writting at all. I only state why I have a problem with thinking why it should end like: 'them being separeted from each other because in real life this is also happens'?

But given the fact that this is fiction. And much things in it don't make sense. I find it too depressing to say it ends like that: 'They will not be together forever'. That is why i say if we start to apply real life logic to conclude what happens after the epilogue. You have to start first with eroge and her love for kyousuke and not with 'will they be together after the ending'?

EDIT 2: This is why i like to interpret the story the way it is presented. With it's hints (hidden meanings) and it's story from the start (volume 1 till volume 12).
The author did a great job on that. Stopping the human brain to apply logic to a story, that is impossible. To understand the story, you have to use your
logic indeed. I am not pointing to that kind of real life logic. I only find it weird to think that all this what happend between them. Stops at volume 12 and
they are normal siblings again forever (without any hidden agenda). And the reason is because in 'real life it also happens'? sorry, but i don't buy this. If
this was an adult book. I would consider it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rampant View Post
The author complains about unrealistic, consequence-free endings in great detail. You can interpret the story however you like, but I can't see how regarding it as completely disconnected from reality is enjoying it the way it's presented by the author.
I have added some commentary on my post before.

Last edited by Sakura_Tsuki; 2013-06-27 at 19:38.
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Old 2013-06-27, 20:03   Link #4030
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I only find it weird to think that all this what happend between them. Stops at volume 12 and they are normal siblings again forever (without any hidden agenda). And the reason is because in 'real life it also happens'? sorry, but i don't buy this. If this was an adult book. I would consider it.
I have no idea who you are arguing against. No one is saying this.
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Old 2013-06-27, 20:07   Link #4031
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I don't think you are doing a disservice to the writing Mayid, in fact because you are so adamant in your feelings about the ending show that it can be viewed as "clear," as far as the intended destination of their relationship shows just how well crafted it seems to be.

I don't agree that it is so cut and dry as all that but I've never had a problem with people viewing the ending in their own way. The debate I spark is all in service of the LN we all clearly enjoy, I enjoy digging down deep to see if there is a deep hidden message or an alternate way to view events. That can sometimes make it sound like I don't think the ending you view as possible is but that isn't my intention in any way.

I will say one thing though about the authors answers to questions given in interviews, I think too much stock is given to them. He could say that Kyousuke and Kirino go to space and fight aliens but it doesn't make it true until he writes a novel explaining such. His intentions for the ending may very well have been the ending most people see but how it is written gives enough room for discussion I think and interviews are not part of the novel so they can't be viewed in the same light as the story itself.
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Old 2013-06-27, 21:26   Link #4032
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I will say one thing though about the authors answers to questions given in interviews, I think too much stock is given to them. He could say that Kyousuke and Kirino go to space and fight aliens but it doesn't make it true until he writes a novel explaining such. His intentions for the ending may very well have been the ending most people see but how it is written gives enough room for discussion I think and interviews are not part of the novel so they can't be viewed in the same light as the story itself.
You're constructing a bit of a straw man with the alien example; I don't think the author has ever said anything that implies anything that isn't actually written in the text itself. The only thing the interviews point to is the author's intentions with the metaphors and symbolism in the epilogue: that he set Kirino on a good path for the future, and that life counselling relates to their new shared secret. This doesn't really preclude any interpretation of what happens down the road, but it provides a small clue about what the symbolism means.

You can choose to ignore this information, but it's a bit suspect to do so given that it comes directly out of the author's mouth. If you ignore evidence to arrive at your conclusion, it makes your conclusion less convincing to others.
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Old 2013-06-27, 21:29   Link #4033
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Is this Death of the Author at work?
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Old 2013-06-27, 21:40   Link #4034
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Is this Death of the Author at work?
Well, if interviews with the author about that specific text are to count in that, I suppose. If he were saying things that are truly "para-text", then I may agree, but here I would argue that he was only further supporting what was already the predominant interpretation of what the epilogue suggests. You're not inferring from culture or context (which is what Death of the Author is mostly talking about), but from the author's own stated opinion at the time. To say the author is "dead" to that extent seems rather extreme (and borders on "selective listening", in my view).
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Old 2013-06-27, 22:17   Link #4035
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You're constructing a bit of a straw man with the alien example; I don't think the author has ever said anything that implies anything that isn't actually written in the text itself. The only thing the interviews point to is the author's intentions with the metaphors and symbolism in the epilogue: that he set Kirino on a good path for the future, and that life counselling relates to their new shared secret. This doesn't really preclude any interpretation of what happens down the road, but it provides a small clue about what the symbolism means.

You can choose to ignore this information, but it's a bit suspect to do so given that it comes directly out of the author's mouth. If you ignore evidence to arrive at your conclusion, it makes your conclusion less convincing to others.
I didn't say I'm ignoring it but it doesn't manifest a clear and concise ending just because he mentions it out of the confines of the novel. He says it's a Kirino end and it's about her happiness. Nothing suggests that her happiness is specifically one thing or another outside of loving her brother and not losing her friends.
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Old 2013-06-27, 23:40   Link #4036
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Originally Posted by tommythecat View Post
There is a real difference between romantic feelings and preteen sibling infatuation. Romantic feelings of love are pretty much none existent during that phase of life outside of kids liking each other and the only way they know that is expressed is through marriage because they want to be together forever(sound familiar). The elementary school promise of marriage is a pretty common trope in anime.
You're right, pre-teen sibling infatuation is different from actual romantic feelings. It's also true that for 99+% of us, those feelings don't merge into romantic/sexual feelings in our teens. We don't marry our sisters in our teens, either. I think it's silly to blow off the precedent strongly established in the novel end to embrace an idea about the characters that is built entirely on wishful assumption and a lack of evidence to the contrary.

Quote:
Saying there is no evidence to support a tamer relationship going forward for them is pretty disingenuous.
Where's the evidence in the story?
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Old 2013-06-28, 02:30   Link #4037
Drakkar77
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I think you're fooling yourself if you don't think everything in this story is possible.

Enough said.

Last edited by Drakkar77; 2013-06-28 at 23:37.
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Old 2013-06-28, 05:31   Link #4038
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The final preview is out, Sakurai gets mentioned, looking forward to it. Oh, and Kirino is still cute.
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Old 2013-06-28, 05:36   Link #4039
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Kyousuke will stay with Kirino 4 ever. When he es 40, Kirino will berate and offend him. But Kyousuke is a masochist, there are many such guys who stays with a impulsive wife even they are unlucky with it.
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Old 2013-06-28, 05:43   Link #4040
Sakura_Tsuki
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The final preview is out, Sakurai gets mentioned, looking forward to it. Oh, and Kirino is still cute.
Just saw the preview. Ooo yesss, definitly a flashback episode. So this is definitly volume 11. But the problem is how will it end? Do we get a cliffhanger ending? Can they animate volume 11 in one episode? Or will they leave the rejection of Sakurai and the Manami part about her not wanting the siblings to be lovers for the ova's?

I hope they animate volume 11 in one episode and keep the 3 ova's only for volume 12. Can't wait to see that animated. Kirinooooooooo, the wedding, kisss oo yesss......

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Kyousuke will stay with Kirino 4 ever. When he es 40, Kirino will berate and offend him. But Kyousuke is a masochist, there are many such guys who stays with a impulsive wife even they are unlucky with it.
If it is Kyousuke then he will stay 4 ever with Kirino. If we look at the whole story his patience with Kirino (the situation) is really admirable ahahhaha.

Last edited by Sakura_Tsuki; 2013-06-28 at 06:31.
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