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Old 2012-09-13, 21:49   Link #1341
tarajis
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Wow... after reading the spoilers, comments and speculations... I'm a bit shocked about Manami... I always thought that Manami will be the final boss and I always thought that she had something to do with the estrangement between the Kousaka siblings but I will admit I've never thought in these regards... Minami deserves the title of the Final Boss in this series...

I was always torn between Manami and Ayase to be what I want as the end girl... well, it tips the scale to Manami because I always see Manami supporting Kyousuke ever since and just always on the sidelines but I never thought she had her motives... Manami was always in control... it was like she had Kyousuke at the palm of her hand...

Minami had already planned everything out from the start... and years ago for that... when she discovered Kirino's feeling for her brother, she made her move and tried to destroy if not halt Kirino's blooming admiration that might develop to love... and when the mishap in Sakurai's case and the class blaming Kyousuke for it and further adding the death of Kyousuke's grandparent, she found the perfect opportunity to somehow brainwash Kyousuke to be just the normal boy she wants him to be... I think Minami believes that the former Kyousuke can easily attract rivals for her... I don't think that Minami wants Kyousuke to be that way because she likes it but just as long as she can secure him for herself... I will not say that she is evil for doing that but I just think she's madly in love with him to be able to do that... well, everything is fair in love and war or something like that... she has it all going smoothly and she gets to be the kind and considerate and trustworthy childhood friend or obaa~chan for Kyousuke....

But who would have thought that eroge will change everything... that the chance of Kyousuke finding a Meruru CD case containing an eroge inside will destroy Minami's Ultimate Plan... Banzai!!! Eroge!!! Banzai!!! EROGE changes lives!!!

Eroge becomes the bridge between the Kousaka siblings... they, little by little, become closer again... eroge expanded their little world... they meet new friends... they get to know each others friends... they get to have adventures together... as the result of this, Kirino's admiration to her brother reignited and Kyousuke regaining himself... and comes the flood of rivals for Manami to handle... I think she still tries to salvage the situation by being somehow related to each and every rivals but the time had come for Kyousuke to be choosing for himself...


As of me now... I'm rooting for an Ayase ending... Ayase's yandere tendency is a bit scary but compared to Manami... she's just dust in the wind...

For my reasons for an Ayase end...

Kirino loves and don't want to lose Ayase... Ayase loves onii~chan, Ayase loves Kirino and she states that she will get both... Kyousuke did said he wants to marry Ayase... and if ever Kirino and I mean if ever Kirino wants a threesome... I think Ayase is all for it... and for Kyousuke... he's just a lucky bastard if that happens...
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Old 2012-09-13, 23:42   Link #1342
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Spoiler for Oreimo Team Interview Edited Summary, Part 1:
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Old 2012-09-13, 23:56   Link #1343
Marcus H.
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Quote:
It was plagiarizing Baccano!.
(All laughs)
What does this mean? Does this involve the introduction of Sakurai?
(I'm suspecting that it has something to do with reverse foreshadowing.)
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Old 2012-09-13, 23:57   Link #1344
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Yes, you are correct.
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Old 2012-09-14, 02:24   Link #1345
Lucarion
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Are there any summaries for volume 11 out in the net somewhere already? I really want to see for myself whether or not everything we've been saying about Manami is truly right...maybe we're just letting our biases get in the way and part of me wants to be mistaken and have it turn out that we just read the entire situation wrong and blew it out of proportion.

Last edited by Lucarion; 2012-09-14 at 22:25.
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Old 2012-09-14, 02:47   Link #1346
Sumeragi
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I'll just say that what relentlessflame and I have written are some of the most neutral summaries of the situation tat exists on the net. What most others say is based on those summaries, and that's where potential bias might have entered.
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Old 2012-09-14, 03:14   Link #1347
GVN.Chaos
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Originally Posted by tarajis View Post
Minami had already planned everything out from the start... and years ago for that... when she discovered Kirino's feeling for her brother, she made her move and tried to destroy if not halt Kirino's blooming admiration that might develop to love... and when the mishap in Sakurai's case and the class blaming Kyousuke for it and further adding the death of Kyousuke's grandparent, she found the perfect opportunity to somehow brainwash Kyousuke to be just the normal boy she wants him to be... I think Minami believes that the former Kyousuke can easily attract rivals for her... I don't think that Minami wants Kyousuke to be that way because she likes it but just as long as she can secure him for herself... I will not say that she is evil for doing that but I just think she's madly in love with him to be able to do that... well, everything is fair in love and war or something like that... she has it all going smoothly and she gets to be the kind and considerate and trustworthy childhood friend or obaa~chan for Kyousuke....
I don't think she is that bad. I mean, from a normal (and realistic POV) then true, being over-archiver and hot-blood is NOT a good thing. How many of you want a life filled with action like Mission Impossible ? She only want to set Kyousuke on the "safe" path - which by her defination : normal. There is no way to know if she really plan ahead that long ago. I think at worst, it is just Kyousuke misunderstanding her advice and got WAY too normal, too plain.
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Old 2012-09-14, 04:14   Link #1348
relentlessflame
 
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Originally Posted by GVN.Chaos View Post
I don't think she is that bad. I mean, from a normal (and realistic POV) then true, being over-archiver and hot-blood is NOT a good thing. How many of you want a life filled with action like Mission Impossible ? She only want to set Kyousuke on the "safe" path - which by her defination : normal. There is no way to know if she really plan ahead that long ago. I think at worst, it is just Kyousuke misunderstanding her advice and got WAY too normal, too plain.
Well, there are really two questions: 1) was she ill-intentioned, and 2) was it good advice.

I don't think there was anything dangerous about Kyousuke's lifestyle; it definitely was not "Mission Impossible". He was a good student, class rep, and was actively looking out for a students who weren't showing up or fitting in. He sounds pretty much in every way like an ideal kid, and a source of pride for his family (not so unlike what Kirino is now). But then, due to circumstances he couldn't entirely control, things take a bad turn and he gets unfairly blamed for the whole thing. Kirino is consoling him, but Manami's advice is basically: "stop trying so hard". In fairness, Manami is the same age as him, so she's not really in a good position to be giving advice, and he shouldn't necessarily have listened to her in the first place. But if a parent gave that advice to their child, you'd surely think that would stunt their child's development. And consider that not only did Manami give that advice to Kyousuke, but she also told Kirino that the admirable brother she loved didn't really exist and she should abandon her feelings and go back to being "normal siblings". It's basically by her own advice that the admirable brother was made to go away, and how the heck is Kirino supposed to know what "normal siblings" are like? How is she supposed to (properly) discard her feelings anyway? We see what resulted; Kirino basically had her brother torn from her and replaced by an imposter who was just going through the motions. How was this in anyone's best interest? If her goal was to save Kyousuke from being hurt emotionally, then her "plan" sort of backfired in rather a spectacular way.

Whatever Manami's intentions were, I definitely don't think I could say she gave either of them good advice. Like I said, though, she was the same age as Kyousuke, so I don't necessarily expect true wisdom from her. The problem is basically that they listened to her. You might also think that, realizing what was going on, she could have done something to help a little sooner too, but that's a bit of a hard one to judge, so it's more of an open question.
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Old 2012-09-14, 07:20   Link #1349
Marcus H.
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Based on your insight relentlessflame, it was really naive of Manami to think that things would go back the way they were in what she just did. Putting things to "normal" in this case was neither best said nor done, and it would just leave two siblings with the scars they got from being forcefully torn apart after regaining their bonds toward each other... and a girl who is still intoxicated in the fantasies of spending the rest of her life with the "old" Kyousuke.

I take back what I said about Manami doing this for the good of the Kousakas. This is just plain selfish of Manami.
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Old 2012-09-14, 09:08   Link #1350
chaosprophet
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Well, there are really two questions: 1) was she ill-intentioned, and 2) was it good advice.

I don't think there was anything dangerous about Kyousuke's lifestyle; it definitely was not "Mission Impossible". He was a good student, class rep, and was actively looking out for a students who weren't showing up or fitting in. He sounds pretty much in every way like an ideal kid, and a source of pride for his family (not so unlike what Kirino is now). But then, due to circumstances he couldn't entirely control, things take a bad turn and he gets unfairly blamed for the whole thing. Kirino is consoling him, but Manami's advice is basically: "stop trying so hard".
Maybe what Manami saw as bad on the lifestyle Kyousuke had was that being outstanding puts someone on a position of focus, where a slight mistake could turn things around, similar to how he got blamed from Sakurai's accident. Kirino for instance, because she gathers a lot of attention (having one of the best grades in the district, being a model, etc), she really needs to hide her hobbies that aren't seen in good lights by the society. While if she was an average person, she could likely be more open about it and not many people would care.
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Old 2012-09-14, 09:41   Link #1351
Sumeragi
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Most people's impression with Volume 11:

Images
Conflict
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Old 2012-09-14, 10:38   Link #1352
GVN.Chaos
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Based on your insight relentlessflame, it was really naive of Manami to think that things would go back the way they were in what she just did. Putting things to "normal" in this case was neither best said nor done, and it would just leave two siblings with the scars they got from being forcefully torn apart after regaining their bonds toward each other... and a girl who is still intoxicated in the fantasies of spending the rest of her life with the "old" Kyousuke.

I take back what I said about Manami doing this for the good of the Kousakas. This is just plain selfish of Manami.
She was a middle school girl at that time. Her advice was bad, but there is no way (at least, for now) to know if she got any ill-intentioned back then. And I think after 10 vol of pictured Manami as a good grandmother, the author won't take an U turn and make she into some sort of villian.
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Old 2012-09-14, 10:43   Link #1353
Vexx
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I'll note that asian literature often doesn't have "villians" and "heroes" .. just people with conflicting desires and motivations. People often convince themselves they're doing the right thing even if it is objectively a win for them and a lose for others.
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Old 2012-09-14, 12:21   Link #1354
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I'll note that asian literature often doesn't have "villians" and "heroes" .. just people with conflicting desires and motivations. People often convince themselves they're doing the right thing even if it is objectively a win for them and a lose for others.
Yes, I definitely agree with this. As I said before, the story revolves primarily around the relationship between Kyousuke and Kirino, so we see things mostly from their perspective (both in the narrative and as readers). If you look at the situation from Kirino's perspective, then you understand why -- from her perspective -- she didn't think highly of Manami after all that happened. But that doesn't mean that Manami was ill-intentioned. You can also see why, generally speaking, Kyousuke has been grateful to Manami, because her advice helped him recover from a serious setback, and live (what seemed at the time) like a relatively contented life (relationship with Kirino notwithstanding).

Consider where Manami's advice comes from; she's basically the "Queen of Normal". So when she provided that advice to Kyousuke, it's not so unlikely that it's advice that she follows herself, and that she uses to protect herself from stress and harm. (Likewise, even her advice to Kirino basically amounts to "don't stand out/hide anything that doesn't conform/just act normal".) That being said, I think a key point is that Manami (like most of the characters in this story) has two faces. While her public face is calm, contented, and in every way "normal", she is deliberately using those traits to mask her true self, a self that even Kyousuke hasn't seen all that often (particularly just in that "one time she got really mad").

It's interesting to come at this from our outside perspective, because a lot of our literature emphasizes things like "be yourself" and "stand up for what you believe in" and "non-discrimination" so on. Manami's way is, by contrast, so very Japanese: publicly conform to the norm and keep all your eccentricities to yourself where no one can see; the two-faced life. The story is packed with two-faced characters, but we generally find ourselves cheering for their true feelings/true selves to be revealed and embraced. But sometimes, their "true selves" are actually worse and more dangerous than their public selves in various ways.

(This theme being explored is no surprise because the "otaku lifestyle" that is a key subject of this work is right at the critical intersection of "public face" and "private face".)
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Old 2012-09-14, 19:16   Link #1355
Marcus H.
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She was a middle school girl at that time. Her advice was bad, but there is no way (at least, for now) to know if she got any ill-intentioned back then. And I think after 10 vol of pictured Manami as a good grandmother, the author won't take an U turn and make she into some sort of villian.
I don't think her actions in 11 are villainous enough. It's selfish, yes, but it's not villainous like she wanted their lives to be ruined. On the contrary, she just wants things "to go back the way they were", which is oftentimes a theme in most soap operas in the Philippines. Of course, the culture between Japan and the Philippines are different.

Quote:
I'll note that asian literature often doesn't have "villians" and "heroes" .. just people with conflicting desires and motivations. People often convince themselves they're doing the right thing even if it is objectively a win for them and a lose for others.
Reminds me of Shakugan no Shana and Toaru Majutsu no Index: gray morality abound.

Quote:
It's interesting to come at this from our outside perspective, because a lot of our literature emphasizes things like "be yourself" and "stand up for what you believe in" and "non-discrimination" so on. Manami's way is, by contrast, so very Japanese: publicly conform to the norm and keep all your eccentricities to yourself where no one can see; the two-faced life. The story is packed with two-faced characters, but we generally find ourselves cheering for their true feelings/true selves to be revealed and embraced. But sometimes, their "true selves" are actually worse and more dangerous than their public selves in various ways.

(This theme being explored is no surprise because the "otaku lifestyle" that is a key subject of this work is right at the critical intersection of "public face" and "private face".)
It's interesting that such a cultural topic can be seen in a light novel series that was said to revolve around incest. It also shows how inward the Japanese self is.
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Old 2012-09-14, 19:32   Link #1356
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It's interesting that such a cultural topic can be seen in a light novel series that was said to revolve around incest.
Well, actually, I'd say that the themes are perfectly matched; what better example could there be of a "shameful feeling" that you're not supposed to admit or show to anyone, and thus the need to create a persona to mask it? The only sub-culture where this theme has some degree of acceptability and popularity (in fiction) is in anime culture (well, and actual porn), which helps explain Kirino's connection to it. So the "marriage" (as it were) of two-faced living, Akiba/"Otaku" culture, and sibling romance is -- I think, anyway -- rather -propos. It's eroge itself that demonstrates (from time to time at least) that it's quite possible to merge serious storytelling and even rather deep cultural/intellectual themes with sexual content and taboos. So I don't think we should be surprised that this novel series is doing the same. It is a story that revolves around a potential forbidden love, but incorporates these many other elements and themes to develop its characters and establish the worldview.

Or in other words, what's interesting to me is that some don't expect stories about incest to explore deep cultural topics. Not saying how it is in your particular case, but it reminds me of how some figure all eroge is just about sex.
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Old 2012-09-14, 19:46   Link #1357
Marcus H.
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^ I'm just talking about the "majority" of people. Some act as purists when it comes to themes like this, completely dismissing any literary value of a particular light novel only because it's about siblings that appear to love each other romantically. (I admit, I'm quite guilty of this, especially with the rise of imouto-based stories on light novels.)
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Old 2012-09-17, 04:39   Link #1358
Flere821
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Post I'm back, and finished reading Vol11

I am back in this thread, and currently rejoicing over the fact the Chinese translation of Vol11 is FINALLY finished

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Spoiler for Volume 11 (per spoilers posted on the Net):
This is mostly accurate. If I had read this before I would have had the entire volume spoiled for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Spoiler for Summary:
Also accurate.

One thing I found you guys haven't mentioned over the last 8 or so pages:
Spoiler for Kanako:

On the topic of Manami being the final boss:
Spoiler for Manami:

Finally, something else that I found interesting:
Spoiler for Ayase:
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Old 2012-09-17, 07:34   Link #1359
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Spoiler:
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Old 2012-09-17, 09:30   Link #1360
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Spoiler for Spoiler for Kanako:

Spoiler for spoiler:
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